are stone giants really that powerful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

are stone giants really that powerful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
revlis nogard
10-10-05, 09:17 PM i was concidering playing a stone giant in an epic campaign of 35th level how ever when i was looking up the rules on level adjustments and "ecl" i became confused because the level adjustment for a stone giant is 4 but its ecl according to page 172 DMG is 18. i think thats a little ridiculous with my level 35 cap i technically would not even break epic class levels i am hoping i miss understood this and would appreciate your feed back. and perhaps some one could explain why there are both "ecl"s and level adjustment why are we being double penalized? and whats a warhulk? i think it said?
fatal error
10-10-05, 09:40 PM ECL = LA + HD. Or, effective character level equals level adjustment plus hit dice. So, your stone giant may only have an LA of 4, but he has 14 hit dice added on. So, while you get all the giant's base attack, hit points, et cetera, it's really an awful deal for anything above LA 1 in general.
dok
10-10-05, 09:45 PM ECL = Level adjustment + Racial HD.

A Stone Giant has 14 racial HD and a level-adjustment of +4. So the DMG is correct that the ECL is 18.

Note that while you cannot gain Epic levels in a base class, you could take Epic levels in a 10-level Prestige Class.

Also note that you use Epic BAB & Epic saving throw modifiers as soon as your hit dice exceed 20. Likewise, you would be able to start using your normal feats for Epic feats as soon as you hit dice exceed 20.

For example, a Stone Giant Barbarian 17 would be ECL 35.
It would have 31 Hit dice total, which means in addition to racial feats, it would have two normal feats, and up to 4 Epic feats.

It would have a BAB of 10 (racial HD) + 6 (barbarian levels before 20 HD) +5 (Epic BAB bonus) = +21. Because it's non-Epic BAB is +16, it would have four iterative attacks.

It's Fortitude saving throw bonus would be +9 (racial) +5 (barbarian non-Epic) +6 (Epic) = +20. Its base Reflex and Will saves would be would be +4 (racial) +2 (class) +6 (Epic) = +12
runestar
10-10-05, 10:55 PM Epic bab/saves only accrue when the character has 21lvs in CLASS LVS, not HD. Likewise, advanced monsters like dragons and outsiders like astral devas continue getting full bab even though their HD exceeds 20.

So for a stone giant barbarian17, he has bab of 10(stone giant)+17(barbarian) = 27. Since he can qualify for epic feats when he is ECL21, he can select up to 5 epic feats, though you might have some problems qualifying for some of them. When you can 20 class lvs, perhaps consider warhulk at lv21+. You still get epic bab(a plus considering its bab is 0) and +2 str per lv.

LA pretty much screws up anything you once thought was playable.
Ziatyn Phoenixwolf
10-11-05, 08:35 PM Recheck the rules runestar. Dok is right.
Raven Dark
10-11-05, 10:47 PM Recheck the rules runestar. Dok is right.

Actually, Runstar is right, to an extent.

He is right when he says that epic base attack progression does NOT come into play until the character gets at least 21 class levels under his belt. If racial HD contributed to epic base attack bonus, then dragons wouldn't be nearly as powrful as they are in the MM.

However, a character qualifies for epic feats as soon as his character level (class levels AND hit dice) equal 21+.

The only epic level anything you get for you LA troubles, however, is the epic level starting funds. For example, a Stone Giant character (14 HD, +8 LA) would get the starting funds of a 22nd level character. Conversely, such a character would not use epic level progressions with its stats and it would NOT qualify for epic feats.
EarthForce
10-13-05, 08:51 PM This is an excerpt from the Official(Wizards)3.5 FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) on page 3. It discusses the epic level question.

When is a monster character considered epic level? Do
you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when
your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible
for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its
character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?
A monster becomes an epic-level character when its
character level hits 21, just like any other character. A
monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class
levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level
Handbook.)
A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic
character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL
continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it
can add a new level.

Click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) and download the 3.5 FAQ. It discusses all details of the question at hand and explains common questions about character level, class level, EL,
ECL, and CR all in the first 4.25pages.

You should give it a read, it quite a useful bit of literature and shame to see that work go to waste.
runestar
10-13-05, 11:54 PM EarthForce is right, but his point is irrelevant to our discussion.

A character is considered epic when his HD+class lvs = 21+. At this point, he is eligible to take epic feats. However, he will get epic saves/bab only when his total number of class lvs is 21 or greater.

Consider the monsters detailed in the ELH. All of them exceeded 21HD long ago, yet they continue getting non-epic bab and saves(according to their HD). They do have epic feats however.
Raven Dark
10-14-05, 02:08 PM EarthForce is right, but his point is irrelevant to our discussion.

A character is considered epic when his HD+class lvs = 21+. At this point, he is eligible to take epic feats. However, he will get epic saves/bab only when his total number of class lvs is 21 or greater.

Consider the monsters detailed in the ELH. All of them exceeded 21HD long ago, yet they continue getting non-epic bab and saves(according to their HD). They do have epic feats however.

Yep, you're absolutely right.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
revlis nogard 10-10-05, 09:17 PM	i was concidering playing a stone giant in an epic campaign of 35th level how ever when i was looking up the rules on level adjustments and "ecl" i became confused because the level adjustment for a stone giant is 4 but its ecl according to page 172 DMG is 18. i think thats a little ridiculous with my level 35 cap i technically would not even break epic class levels i am hoping i miss understood this and would appreciate your feed back. and perhaps some one could explain why there are both "ecl"s and level adjustment why are we being double penalized? and whats a warhulk? i think it said?
fatal error 10-10-05, 09:40 PM	ECL = LA + HD. Or, effective character level equals level adjustment plus hit dice. So, your stone giant may only have an LA of 4, but he has 14 hit dice added on. So, while you get all the giant's base attack, hit points, et cetera, it's really an awful deal for anything above LA 1 in general.
dok 10-10-05, 09:45 PM	ECL = Level adjustment + Racial HD. A Stone Giant has 14 racial HD and a level-adjustment of +4. So the DMG is correct that the ECL is 18. Note that while you cannot gain Epic levels in a base class, you could take Epic levels in a 10-level Prestige Class. Also note that you use Epic BAB & Epic saving throw modifiers as soon as your hit dice exceed 20. Likewise, you would be able to start using your normal feats for Epic feats as soon as you hit dice exceed 20. For example, a Stone Giant Barbarian 17 would be ECL 35. It would have 31 Hit dice total, which means in addition to racial feats, it would have two normal feats, and up to 4 Epic feats. It would have a BAB of 10 (racial HD) + 6 (barbarian levels before 20 HD) +5 (Epic BAB bonus) = +21. Because it's non-Epic BAB is +16, it would have four iterative attacks. It's Fortitude saving throw bonus would be +9 (racial) +5 (barbarian non-Epic) +6 (Epic) = +20. Its base Reflex and Will saves would be would be +4 (racial) +2 (class) +6 (Epic) = +12
runestar 10-10-05, 10:55 PM	Epic bab/saves only accrue when the character has 21lvs in CLASS LVS, not HD. Likewise, advanced monsters like dragons and outsiders like astral devas continue getting full bab even though their HD exceeds 20. So for a stone giant barbarian17, he has bab of 10(stone giant)+17(barbarian) = 27. Since he can qualify for epic feats when he is ECL21, he can select up to 5 epic feats, though you might have some problems qualifying for some of them. When you can 20 class lvs, perhaps consider warhulk at lv21+. You still get epic bab(a plus considering its bab is 0) and +2 str per lv. LA pretty much screws up anything you once thought was playable.
Ziatyn Phoenixwolf 10-11-05, 08:35 PM	Recheck the rules runestar. Dok is right.
Raven Dark 10-11-05, 10:47 PM	Recheck the rules runestar. Dok is right. Actually, Runstar is right, to an extent. He is right when he says that epic base attack progression does NOT come into play until the character gets at least 21 class levels under his belt. If racial HD contributed to epic base attack bonus, then dragons wouldn't be nearly as powrful as they are in the MM. However, a character qualifies for epic feats as soon as his character level (class levels AND hit dice) equal 21+. The only epic level anything you get for you LA troubles, however, is the epic level starting funds. For example, a Stone Giant character (14 HD, +8 LA) would get the starting funds of a 22nd level character. Conversely, such a character would not use epic level progressions with its stats and it would NOT qualify for epic feats.
EarthForce 10-13-05, 08:51 PM	This is an excerpt from the Official(Wizards)3.5 FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) on page 3. It discusses the epic level question. When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+? A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level. Click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) and download the 3.5 FAQ. It discusses all details of the question at hand and explains common questions about character level, class level, EL, ECL, and CR all in the first 4.25pages. You should give it a read, it quite a useful bit of literature and shame to see that work go to waste.
runestar 10-13-05, 11:54 PM	EarthForce is right, but his point is irrelevant to our discussion. A character is considered epic when his HD+class lvs = 21+. At this point, he is eligible to take epic feats. However, he will get epic saves/bab only when his total number of class lvs is 21 or greater. Consider the monsters detailed in the ELH. All of them exceeded 21HD long ago, yet they continue getting non-epic bab and saves(according to their HD). They do have epic feats however.
Raven Dark 10-14-05, 02:08 PM	EarthForce is right, but his point is irrelevant to our discussion. A character is considered epic when his HD+class lvs = 21+. At this point, he is eligible to take epic feats. However, he will get epic saves/bab only when his total number of class lvs is 21 or greater. Consider the monsters detailed in the ELH. All of them exceeded 21HD long ago, yet they continue getting non-epic bab and saves(according to their HD). They do have epic feats however. Yep, you're absolutely right.