Are there any non-undead Incorporeal creatures? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are there any non-undead Incorporeal creatures? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rurikmage
10-18-05, 08:25 PM Can someone please help me? I am trying to find non-undead incorporeal creatures.

This is in reference to a spell which is a force effect and specifically states that it has no miss chance against incorporeal creatures, but allows a fortitude save.

By definition, undead cannot be harmed by spells with a fortitude save unless the spell is also usable against objects (like disintegrate, for example, with a Saving Throw entry of "Fortitude partial (object)"). This spell does not indicate "(object)" in the Saving Throw entry.

Is this spell meant to be useful against undead (the vast majority, if not all, of the incorporeal creatures) or is it meant to NOT be useful against undead based on the fortitude save?

Thanks for your help!
cwslyclgh
10-18-05, 08:51 PM Can someone please help me? I am trying to find non-undead incorporeal creatures. I believe that there is a non-corporeal fey creature in one of the monster manuals.

This is in reference to a spell which is a force effect and specifically states that it has no miss chance against incorporeal creatures, but allows a fortitude save. to which spell are you refering?

if the spell does damage and the fort save is to reduce that damage, then it in all liklyhood affects objects as well unless the spell specifically says that it can't (Example Magic Missile) they would just not a get a save against it (which non magical objects do not get anyway) or else they just forgot to add (object) to the save line.

if it is a spell which does damage and then has a secondary effect that the save negates I would rule that the undead creature would take the damage but be immune to the secondary effects (Example: if Orb of Fire was a force effect-for the sake of demonstration-, deals damage and there is save to aviod being dazed for 1 round).
Lord Schpungus
10-18-05, 11:14 PM Miss Chance and Fortitude Save are completely different. I don't see why you're upset about the Fort Save. Normally incorporeal creatures have a 50% chance to ignore the effect of magic weapons and spells, regardless of save, no save, sr, etc. Force effects just make sure they always have to save. It ignores the blanket 50% fail of incorporeal, not the save.

But yeah, Fey are a good place to look. If it's an orb of force you're looking at, I think the save only applies to the secondary effect, which undead are likely immune to anyways.
SmiloDan
10-18-05, 11:31 PM The Trilloch from MM3 is an incorporeal outsider.
dok
10-19-05, 12:22 AM The Shadow Demon (BoVD) is an incorporeal Outsider, IIRC.

The Unbodied (XPH) is an Incorporeal Monstrous Humanoid.

If a spell deals energy damage or Force damage, it will affect undead, because energy & Force damage affect objects.
Rurikmage
10-19-05, 01:06 AM I appreciate the comments.

I hesitated to name the spell because it's from BoED and many people dismiss that book as being "broken." The spell is Hammer of Rightousness. The spell description goes on about its usefulness against incorporeal creatures but it offers a fortitude save for half damage which means it does not affect undead (by definition of the undead subtype). The spell is a sanctified, good, force effect that does extra damage against evil creatures, but by definition does not work on undead (due only to the fortitude save not saying (object) in the Saving Throw description). Something seems out of whack with that.

Quote:
if the spell does damage and the fort save is to reduce that damage, then it in all liklyhood affects objects as well unless the spell specifically says that it can't (Example Magic Missile) they would just not a get a save against it (which non magical objects do not get anyway) or else they just forgot to add (object) to the save line.
I was thinking that the spell should have a reflex save for half damage or should also affect objects. I'll look into the rules about affecting objects. I was under the impression that spells with a fortitude save (to reduce damage) only worked on undead if it specified objects in the saving throw description. Hopefully I'm wrong about that!

Quote:
If it's an orb of force you're looking at, I think the save only applies to the secondary effect, which undead are likely immune to anyways.
Unfortunately, this fortitude save is not a secondary effect.

There do seem to be quite a few non-undead incorporeal creatures, so I can't really argue that the spell description would only define its effectiveness against incorporeal if it could affect undead. Oh, well. More advice would be welcomed.
dok
10-19-05, 01:30 AM I hesitated to name the spell because it's from BoED and many people dismiss that book as being "broken."

It's hard not to get a little snarky and point out that "broken" doesn't just mean 'unbalanced', but can also mean "unsound overall in terms of game mechanics". That you found a spell that is unsound in game mechanics from a book widely viewed as having much content unsound in game mechanics... well, I'm trying not to be snarky...

Reading the spell, I see nothing in Hammer of Rightousness to suggest that it can't be used on objects. The damage dealt by the spell does not list a type, but since the spell has the [force] descriptor, so the damage dealt is the same kind of damage deal by other [force] spells, like magic missle.

If the spell was used on an object, it would do full damage, unless the object was a Magic Item, or was an Attended object, in which case a saving throw would apply.

I was under the impression that spells with a fortitude save (to reduce damage) only worked on undead if it specified objects in the saving throw description. Hopefully I'm wrong about that!

Part of the problem is that the spell itself is badly written. It has a Range and an Effect, but not a Target. Nothing in the spell itself suggests that it can't target objects, and if you look at spells like scorching ray or polar ray, you'll notice that they don't mention objects in the saving throw line either...

Keep the saving throw as Fortitude, and let it target objects if the caster wants; it's a Sanctified spell, so it should be a little stronger than other spells of its level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rurikmage 10-18-05, 08:25 PM	Can someone please help me? I am trying to find non-undead incorporeal creatures. This is in reference to a spell which is a force effect and specifically states that it has no miss chance against incorporeal creatures, but allows a fortitude save. By definition, undead cannot be harmed by spells with a fortitude save unless the spell is also usable against objects (like disintegrate, for example, with a Saving Throw entry of "Fortitude partial (object)"). This spell does not indicate "(object)" in the Saving Throw entry. Is this spell meant to be useful against undead (the vast majority, if not all, of the incorporeal creatures) or is it meant to NOT be useful against undead based on the fortitude save? Thanks for your help!
cwslyclgh 10-18-05, 08:51 PM	Can someone please help me? I am trying to find non-undead incorporeal creatures. I believe that there is a non-corporeal fey creature in one of the monster manuals. This is in reference to a spell which is a force effect and specifically states that it has no miss chance against incorporeal creatures, but allows a fortitude save. to which spell are you refering? if the spell does damage and the fort save is to reduce that damage, then it in all liklyhood affects objects as well unless the spell specifically says that it can't (Example Magic Missile) they would just not a get a save against it (which non magical objects do not get anyway) or else they just forgot to add (object) to the save line. if it is a spell which does damage and then has a secondary effect that the save negates I would rule that the undead creature would take the damage but be immune to the secondary effects (Example: if Orb of Fire was a force effect-for the sake of demonstration-, deals damage and there is save to aviod being dazed for 1 round).
Lord Schpungus 10-18-05, 11:14 PM	Miss Chance and Fortitude Save are completely different. I don't see why you're upset about the Fort Save. Normally incorporeal creatures have a 50% chance to ignore the effect of magic weapons and spells, regardless of save, no save, sr, etc. Force effects just make sure they always have to save. It ignores the blanket 50% fail of incorporeal, not the save. But yeah, Fey are a good place to look. If it's an orb of force you're looking at, I think the save only applies to the secondary effect, which undead are likely immune to anyways.
SmiloDan 10-18-05, 11:31 PM	The Trilloch from MM3 is an incorporeal outsider.
dok 10-19-05, 12:22 AM	The Shadow Demon (BoVD) is an incorporeal Outsider, IIRC. The Unbodied (XPH) is an Incorporeal Monstrous Humanoid. If a spell deals energy damage or Force damage, it will affect undead, because energy & Force damage affect objects.
Rurikmage 10-19-05, 01:06 AM	I appreciate the comments. I hesitated to name the spell because it's from BoED and many people dismiss that book as being "broken." The spell is Hammer of Rightousness. The spell description goes on about its usefulness against incorporeal creatures but it offers a fortitude save for half damage which means it does not affect undead (by definition of the undead subtype). The spell is a sanctified, good, force effect that does extra damage against evil creatures, but by definition does not work on undead (due only to the fortitude save not saying (object) in the Saving Throw description). Something seems out of whack with that. Quote: if the spell does damage and the fort save is to reduce that damage, then it in all liklyhood affects objects as well unless the spell specifically says that it can't (Example Magic Missile) they would just not a get a save against it (which non magical objects do not get anyway) or else they just forgot to add (object) to the save line. I was thinking that the spell should have a reflex save for half damage or should also affect objects. I'll look into the rules about affecting objects. I was under the impression that spells with a fortitude save (to reduce damage) only worked on undead if it specified objects in the saving throw description. Hopefully I'm wrong about that! Quote: If it's an orb of force you're looking at, I think the save only applies to the secondary effect, which undead are likely immune to anyways. Unfortunately, this fortitude save is not a secondary effect. There do seem to be quite a few non-undead incorporeal creatures, so I can't really argue that the spell description would only define its effectiveness against incorporeal if it could affect undead. Oh, well. More advice would be welcomed.
dok 10-19-05, 01:30 AM	I hesitated to name the spell because it's from BoED and many people dismiss that book as being "broken." It's hard not to get a little snarky and point out that "broken" doesn't just mean 'unbalanced', but can also mean "unsound overall in terms of game mechanics". That you found a spell that is unsound in game mechanics from a book widely viewed as having much content unsound in game mechanics... well, I'm trying not to be snarky... Reading the spell, I see nothing in Hammer of Rightousness to suggest that it can't be used on objects. The damage dealt by the spell does not list a type, but since the spell has the [force] descriptor, so the damage dealt is the same kind of damage deal by other [force] spells, like magic missle. If the spell was used on an object, it would do full damage, unless the object was a Magic Item, or was an Attended object, in which case a saving throw would apply. I was under the impression that spells with a fortitude save (to reduce damage) only worked on undead if it specified objects in the saving throw description. Hopefully I'm wrong about that! Part of the problem is that the spell itself is badly written. It has a Range and an Effect, but not a Target. Nothing in the spell itself suggests that it can't target objects, and if you look at spells like scorching ray or polar ray, you'll notice that they don't mention objects in the saving throw line either... Keep the saving throw as Fortitude, and let it target objects if the caster wants; it's a Sanctified spell, so it should be a little stronger than other spells of its level.