arrow demon CR 7?!?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

arrow demon CR 7?!?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
prozacman
10-04-05, 07:16 PM ok.. so i played in game last night in which the whole party nearly got owned by 2, CR 7s (the afore mentioned arrow demons)

the party consists of a 7th lvl rogue, a 6th level paladin, a 6th lvl warmage, a 6th level cleric, and a 5th level druid

every single party member is WAY over equiped for their level, (the average wealth is about 200000 gold) (the paladin has a +5 keen, shocking burst, thundering, defending scimitar (cold iron) as an example). oh and amongst other things the rogue has a cold iron demon bane dagger.

now granted, we have a lot of new people in the group (i am the most experienced at the game, and i'd be a newbie by some people on this board's standards {DnDing since '98}

But still, a sixth level party way overequipped.. should own 2 CR 7s..

but as it sits, it was nearly a TPK.. the DM flubbed some rolls to keep the druid alive... and i'm pretty certain he flubbed some for the paladin as well.

SO, on the the point: Does anyone else think the arrow demon is a higher CR than 7? For that particular encounter the DM kicked up the CR and gave us more xp based on the fact that we almost died... but still.. was someone at WoTC on drugs when they wrote this beasty? or am i missing some weakness? i am really interested in seeing what everyone else on here thinks about these arrow demons...

I dont have the MM 3 in front of me.. but off hand i remember them having about 130 hp, 19 ac, SR 18, 4 attacks from large longbows (yes, two of them; that dont provoke attacks of opportunity when they use them) fire, acid, and cold resistance 10, immunity to electricity poison... DR 5/ cold iron & good.. ALSO the ability to summon other arrow demons, and DIMENSION DOOR at will.

thats enough of this rant.. and please tell me if thats what it is.. just seems to me that they are far more powerful than their CR suggests.. off hand i'd like to say like cr 8-10... but <shrug> maby i'm just in shock because our party seemed so powerful and got smacked down so expertly by something of our challenge rating...
jazzman831
10-04-05, 11:26 PM I'm no expert either, which is ironically why I have some insight on this problem. First of all 2 CR 7's is a CR 9, and your party is average of 6. Even if they have more equipment than they should they are still level 6 so they have BAB saves, HP, spells, special qualities and whatnot of level 6 characters. Here's where my experience comes in: I've found in the past that if you try to inch up the CR there eventually comes a time where the inexperienced (but overpowered) players simply don't have the strategy to fight that creature, even though on paper they should. Also sometimes the dice come into play more than you realize. Before I grant that this was too high for a CR 7 I would want to see them go against one Arrow Demon. If they are on an even playing field with the Demon and they still get obliterated than it might be too high; a group should be able to take on something of 1 higher CR, albeit with some difficulty. If they, on the otherhand, obliterate the demon then it probably is of correct CR.
dok
10-05-05, 01:37 AM Yup.

Party level 6.
Two CR 7 Monsters = EL 9.

EL +3 of party level = very difficult fight; it should on average use up 3/4 of the party's total resources.

And that's before any ad-hoc adjustments for circumstances.

But still, a sixth level party way overequipped.. should own 2 CR 7s..

No. A 6th level party should have a very tough fight against two CR 7 monsters. In fact, even against one CR 7 monster the party should expect to use up about 1/4 of its total spells/hit points.

SO, on the the point: Does anyone else think the arrow demon is a higher CR than 7?

Well, let's take a look (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=4). Lucky for us you picked a monster that we can all look at...

Well... it's got a stronger DR than I'd expect for a CR 7; normally at that range I'd expect DR 5/Good or DR 5/Cold Iron, but not both. But it is only DR 5...

It's got standard SR. (11+CR) and the tanar'ri resistance/immunity package.

It's got great combat abilities, to be sure. And dimension door at will gives it good mobility, but don't forget that when you dimension door, that's all you do that round.

It is a bit of a one-trick pony. If the party can defend itself against its ranged attacks (wind wall for example) it's not so tough. Likewise, one Sunder or Disarm against its bow cuts its attacks in half.

Overall it is a bit much for CR 7, especially with the extremely high Constitution score and respectable Strength stat, and CR 8 or 9 might be more appropriate.
strcpy
10-05-05, 10:07 AM I also looked at the Arrow Demon in the MM3 and first though this is a really dangerous opponent.

Though I don't think it's overpowered. I just believe that it needs to be tackled in a specific kind of way.

Granted that in the complete open they are at their most dangerous and would probably be counted as a CR 8 encounter (especially if they have high ground). Same go's if you're in a thick forest with lots of cover, the CR would probably drop to CR 6.

Effective use of any spells (protection from arrows, obscuring mist, darkness - cast it on yourself if you have to :P ) or items (smoke sticks) would give them miss chances and other penalites. If anyone had a tower shield they could just hide behind it and move to melee range.

I mean, they have four arms and two bows, it should be plainly obvious to use cover and concealment too get up close and personal with them.

This is not the sort of creature you want to fight on it's terms.
Balor von Balorvitch
10-05-05, 10:19 AM Arrow demons are a fav of mine. Perfect Snipers! Especally aganist heavly magical melee fighters with no +1 ranged weapons.They hide behind cover fireing shots under concealment and when discovered they dimenson door to a new location to restart the encounter. With 5 or 6 hiding spots Cr 7 feels alot better. so Cr 9 under this circumstance..... good luck. A staff of power in a novices hand is useless so magic doesn't make the man, strategy usual does.
prozacman
10-09-05, 03:24 AM first of all.. thanks guys.. i mostly wanted to be certain i was not going crazy.. and these demonic fellas were tough for their level.

second of all.. as per usual, the grab bag of wisdom from this board seems to be once again spot on. (GO you guys!) :cheer:

So yeah.. maby we shouldn't own a CR 9.. that was probably just my own swollen head from all the cool stuff i just got. That being said..

Its probably the party more than the numbers that are against us.. a lot of us are new... and tactically the demon had us against a wall.. (literally.. they had us in a small room at the end of a long hallway)

I think maby i'll have a lil' tactics 101 sesson with my fellow party members..

Before I grant that this was too high for a CR 7 I would want to see them go against one Arrow Demon

fair enough.. and to be honest.. in a straight up fight.. i dont think 1 arrow demon would stand a chance against even my rogue and the paladin (the only two party members really pulling their weight.. but thats a topic for another time)

anyhow.. once again, thanx for the insight guys (and girls? never know on message boards)

A staff of power in a novices hand is useless so magic doesn't make the man, strategy usual does.

Aint that the truth? and perhaps the lesson the DM is trying to teach the new guys.. i mean in the last couple sessons i've heard both the warmage and the druid complain about being useless. And you know... i played a warmage for sometime.. and i never found myself "useless" unless the encounter involved NOT blowing something up.. but even then intimidate can work wonders.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prozacman 10-04-05, 07:16 PM	ok.. so i played in game last night in which the whole party nearly got owned by 2, CR 7s (the afore mentioned arrow demons) the party consists of a 7th lvl rogue, a 6th level paladin, a 6th lvl warmage, a 6th level cleric, and a 5th level druid every single party member is WAY over equiped for their level, (the average wealth is about 200000 gold) (the paladin has a +5 keen, shocking burst, thundering, defending scimitar (cold iron) as an example). oh and amongst other things the rogue has a cold iron demon bane dagger. now granted, we have a lot of new people in the group (i am the most experienced at the game, and i'd be a newbie by some people on this board's standards {DnDing since '98} But still, a sixth level party way overequipped.. should own 2 CR 7s.. but as it sits, it was nearly a TPK.. the DM flubbed some rolls to keep the druid alive... and i'm pretty certain he flubbed some for the paladin as well. SO, on the the point: Does anyone else think the arrow demon is a higher CR than 7? For that particular encounter the DM kicked up the CR and gave us more xp based on the fact that we almost died... but still.. was someone at WoTC on drugs when they wrote this beasty? or am i missing some weakness? i am really interested in seeing what everyone else on here thinks about these arrow demons... I dont have the MM 3 in front of me.. but off hand i remember them having about 130 hp, 19 ac, SR 18, 4 attacks from large longbows (yes, two of them; that dont provoke attacks of opportunity when they use them) fire, acid, and cold resistance 10, immunity to electricity poison... DR 5/ cold iron & good.. ALSO the ability to summon other arrow demons, and DIMENSION DOOR at will. thats enough of this rant.. and please tell me if thats what it is.. just seems to me that they are far more powerful than their CR suggests.. off hand i'd like to say like cr 8-10... but <shrug> maby i'm just in shock because our party seemed so powerful and got smacked down so expertly by something of our challenge rating...
jazzman831 10-04-05, 11:26 PM	I'm no expert either, which is ironically why I have some insight on this problem. First of all 2 CR 7's is a CR 9, and your party is average of 6. Even if they have more equipment than they should they are still level 6 so they have BAB saves, HP, spells, special qualities and whatnot of level 6 characters. Here's where my experience comes in: I've found in the past that if you try to inch up the CR there eventually comes a time where the inexperienced (but overpowered) players simply don't have the strategy to fight that creature, even though on paper they should. Also sometimes the dice come into play more than you realize. Before I grant that this was too high for a CR 7 I would want to see them go against one Arrow Demon. If they are on an even playing field with the Demon and they still get obliterated than it might be too high; a group should be able to take on something of 1 higher CR, albeit with some difficulty. If they, on the otherhand, obliterate the demon then it probably is of correct CR.
dok 10-05-05, 01:37 AM	Yup. Party level 6. Two CR 7 Monsters = EL 9. EL +3 of party level = very difficult fight; it should on average use up 3/4 of the party's total resources. And that's before any ad-hoc adjustments for circumstances. But still, a sixth level party way overequipped.. should own 2 CR 7s.. No. A 6th level party should have a very tough fight against two CR 7 monsters. In fact, even against one CR 7 monster the party should expect to use up about 1/4 of its total spells/hit points. SO, on the the point: Does anyone else think the arrow demon is a higher CR than 7? Well, let's take a look (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=4). Lucky for us you picked a monster that we can all look at... Well... it's got a stronger DR than I'd expect for a CR 7; normally at that range I'd expect DR 5/Good or DR 5/Cold Iron, but not both. But it is only DR 5... It's got standard SR. (11+CR) and the tanar'ri resistance/immunity package. It's got great combat abilities, to be sure. And dimension door at will gives it good mobility, but don't forget that when you dimension door, that's all you do that round. It is a bit of a one-trick pony. If the party can defend itself against its ranged attacks (wind wall for example) it's not so tough. Likewise, one Sunder or Disarm against its bow cuts its attacks in half. Overall it is a bit much for CR 7, especially with the extremely high Constitution score and respectable Strength stat, and CR 8 or 9 might be more appropriate.
strcpy 10-05-05, 10:07 AM	I also looked at the Arrow Demon in the MM3 and first though this is a really dangerous opponent. Though I don't think it's overpowered. I just believe that it needs to be tackled in a specific kind of way. Granted that in the complete open they are at their most dangerous and would probably be counted as a CR 8 encounter (especially if they have high ground). Same go's if you're in a thick forest with lots of cover, the CR would probably drop to CR 6. Effective use of any spells (protection from arrows, obscuring mist, darkness - cast it on yourself if you have to :P ) or items (smoke sticks) would give them miss chances and other penalites. If anyone had a tower shield they could just hide behind it and move to melee range. I mean, they have four arms and two bows, it should be plainly obvious to use cover and concealment too get up close and personal with them. This is not the sort of creature you want to fight on it's terms.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-05-05, 10:19 AM	Arrow demons are a fav of mine. Perfect Snipers! Especally aganist heavly magical melee fighters with no +1 ranged weapons.They hide behind cover fireing shots under concealment and when discovered they dimenson door to a new location to restart the encounter. With 5 or 6 hiding spots Cr 7 feels alot better. so Cr 9 under this circumstance..... good luck. A staff of power in a novices hand is useless so magic doesn't make the man, strategy usual does.
prozacman 10-09-05, 03:24 AM	first of all.. thanks guys.. i mostly wanted to be certain i was not going crazy.. and these demonic fellas were tough for their level. second of all.. as per usual, the grab bag of wisdom from this board seems to be once again spot on. (GO you guys!) :cheer: So yeah.. maby we shouldn't own a CR 9.. that was probably just my own swollen head from all the cool stuff i just got. That being said.. Its probably the party more than the numbers that are against us.. a lot of us are new... and tactically the demon had us against a wall.. (literally.. they had us in a small room at the end of a long hallway) I think maby i'll have a lil' tactics 101 sesson with my fellow party members.. Before I grant that this was too high for a CR 7 I would want to see them go against one Arrow Demon fair enough.. and to be honest.. in a straight up fight.. i dont think 1 arrow demon would stand a chance against even my rogue and the paladin (the only two party members really pulling their weight.. but thats a topic for another time) anyhow.. once again, thanx for the insight guys (and girls? never know on message boards) A staff of power in a novices hand is useless so magic doesn't make the man, strategy usual does. Aint that the truth? and perhaps the lesson the DM is trying to teach the new guys.. i mean in the last couple sessons i've heard both the warmage and the druid complain about being useless. And you know... i played a warmage for sometime.. and i never found myself "useless" unless the encounter involved NOT blowing something up.. but even then intimidate can work wonders.