Assassin Vine..overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin Vine..overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Angus Cotton
04-02-07, 10:04 PM Anyone else think that the Assassin Vine is a bit overpowered for a CR 3 monster?

Last night, I ran DMed a party of 4 (2 barb, 3 cleric, 3 ranger, 3 bard). I figured CR 3 would not be too much for them. Man, was I wrong. Between the Entangle spell (which they only broke free of once or twice) and the +12 grapple check, it party wiped them. I think they did a total of 7 damage to it.

I felt that I had treated them a bit unfairly, so I had to think of a way to bring them back. I cheesily said a dryad had saved them. Still, CR3 Assassin Vines kick some serious ***!
OamuTheMonk
04-04-07, 10:59 PM I had a similar experience, with a fifth-level party. They defeated it, but they came really close to losing two party members. That thing is brutal--the 20' reach, entangle, and fire resistance make it a killer.

They don't call em' friendly happy vines.
dengarbountyhunter
04-05-07, 10:02 PM Yeah... well, once you know there's an assassin vine and you stay far away enough, it can't do much to kill you. But I agree that in a fair fight, they are way over CR 3. Come on, plants with fire resistance? That's just mean, because you KNOW that at some point they will try to scorch it with fire spells. That's like DM metagaming :(.
KillerVole
04-05-07, 10:33 PM Huh, I never had any problems with them. But I never noticed the reach, and the PC who fought it was completely focused on grapple.
HarlequinHelsing
04-05-07, 11:58 PM CR 3, you say? Well, let's see what we can do about that...

Melf's Acid Arrow is ready for casting. No acid resistance as far as I can tell. There aren't many living creatures out there resistant to Inflict spells of any level; course, they are touch spells...Ah, Spectral Hand takes care of that...You could Summon Swarm it to death...Or Spiritual Weapon. The damn thing only has 30 hp, and no initiative bonus, but unfortunately it doesn't have a discernible anatomy so sneak attacks are out. Fighter can still charge and get a solid attack in. Plus the fighter stands a reasonable chance of breaking out of the grapple.

Fighting an assassin vine looks like it's a primarily spellcaster job, but not impossible in the least. Just keep your distance, and if you're traveling in the woods, bring a spotter (i.e., commoner hireling) with you.
Azar_of_Faerun
04-06-07, 03:05 AM We've fought a Paragon Assassin Vine before
spncrbrrtt
04-07-07, 08:54 AM I've only had one problem with them. two characters were walking away from the rest of the party to scout and came across a nest of three of them. the cleric (me) stayed back, and the paladin rushed foreward. the paladin was 5th level, and the cleric was seventh. The paladin got owned.
Angus Cotton
04-07-07, 10:58 PM Melf's Acid Arrow is ready for casting. No acid resistance as far as I can tell. There aren't many living creatures out there resistant to Inflict spells of any level; course, they are touch spells...Ah, Spectral Hand takes care of that...You could Summon Swarm it to death...Or Spiritual Weapon. The damn thing only has 30 hp, and no initiative bonus, but unfortunately it doesn't have a discernible anatomy so sneak attacks are out. Fighter can still charge and get a solid attack in. Plus the fighter stands a reasonable chance of breaking out of the grapple.

Yes, I am not arguing that it CAN be killed, or that it isnt doable. I am just saying that a level 3 character normally doesn't have the ability to make the DC 20 spot check needed to even detect its presence. I mean you have to know it is there to attack it right? Plus it can see and attack in complete darkness, which is even more an advantage.

Likely, because of the Camoflage and Blindsight, a level 3 character will be surprised, and then get stuck in an Entangle. He might[I] make the DC on Entangle, as it is only 13, but you got to make that DC [I]every round while it is attacking you to not get Entangled, and once you get Entangled it is a DC 20 Str check or DC 20 Escape Artist check, which takes a full round action to activate. The barbarian in the party I DMed had a chance oif breaking out with his +6 strength check while raged, but that is only a 30% chance. Let's not forget that if he does make the check and can't get out of the area, he has to make the DC 13 Reflex save the next round to do anything like attack or whatever. Oh, and the plant gets AoO for anyone moving through threatened areas within 10', which it will likely use to do the hit/improved grapple combo.

Oh, and what level 3 can beat a +12 grapple check, which it gets, mind you, automatically after it hits you as hard as any fighter would. The barb mentioned above had a +9 grapple check while raged, so there you go, he has a fighting chance, but the plant still has the advantage.
HarlequinHelsing
04-08-07, 05:26 PM Hang on there, angus. It's a flat DC of 20, right? That means the 'vine doesn't get to roll any Hide checks, so it's always 20. So now we assume the party is traveling with a friendly Ranger. Can we assume he has 18 Wisdom? If we can't, I've got another situation below. So, this is a Ranger who's maxed out Spot with a +4 Wisdom bonus. Before you add Skill Focus or Alertness or anything like that, that's a +10 modifier. So he'll make that Spot check 50% of the time, which isn't bad.

Alright, 18 Wisdom might be a little high. So let's try again with 15. So far +8. So what if he takes Alertness to put him at +10? Now, if he's an NPC Ranger who's sole purpose in life is to ferry people through 'vine infested wildernesses, he'll probably have Favored Enemy (plant), so that's +12, now. Let's assume he took Skill Focus (spot), for +15. Oh, and just for fun, make him an elf.

Keep in mind, this is with 15 Wisdom. He has, at 3rd level, +17 to Spot. That means he'll make the DC 75% of the time well out of the reach of the 'vine. So the PCs hire him, maybe he charges them 10g a day. Hell, he could charge 'em 500g a day and it wouldn't set them back. My point is this: the Assassin Vine is not overpowered. Just because you have to think before fighting a monster doesn't mean it's broken. Monsters are meant to be challenging. Monsters are NOT meant to be pinatas of treasure and XP. The PCs need to earn their experience, not just wade through thousands of zombies. If you just want your PCs to feel good about themselves 'cause they beat the crap out of a couple goblins, throw goblins at them. If your PCs don't want to think, don't throw Assassin Vines at them.

Assassin Vines don't just pop up out of nowhere, either; if your PCs are tromping through the Forest of Evil Death, they might prepare for fights like this. Plus, who said they have to Spot the 'vine?? Read the description; it leaves its victims at its roots for fertilizer. Don't look for the 'vine, look for a tree with a pile of meat next to it. You mentioned that they have to know it's there to attack it. Well, it gets the first attack in, maybe grapples someone. So now the PCs should be well aware of the plant strangling their buddy, so the Wiz aims and lets loose. And if you're letting the Wiz lead the party through the woods, you've got some problems you need to work out with your party. If something looks suspicious, send out a decoy. Just Summon a celestial badger and see if it gets attacked.

There are so many ways your party could've avoided this TPK. You really haven't given any information on what the fight was like, or why you think it's overpowered. So far, your argument sounds like 'It killed my party, so it's overpowered.' That's not the 'vine's problem; that's either the party's problem, or it's yours.
Thiez
04-08-07, 05:46 PM Hang on there, angus. It's a flat DC of 20, right? That means the 'vine doesn't get to roll any Hide checks, so it's always 20. So now we assume the party is traveling with a friendly Ranger. Can we assume he has 18 Wisdom? If we can't, I've got another situation below. So, this is a Ranger who's maxed out Spot with a +4 Wisdom bonus. Before you add Skill Focus or Alertness or anything like that, that's a +10 modifier. So he'll make that Spot check 50% of the time, which isn't bad.

Alright, 18 Wisdom might be a little high. So let's try again with 15. So far +8. So what if he takes Alertness to put him at +10? Now, if he's an NPC Ranger who's sole purpose in life is to ferry people through 'vine infested wildernesses, he'll probably have Favored Enemy (plant), so that's +12, now. Let's assume he took Skill Focus (spot), for +15. Oh, and just for fun, make him an elf.

Keep in mind, this is with 15 Wisdom. He has, at 3rd level, +17 to Spot. That means he'll make the DC 75% of the time well out of the reach of the 'vine. So the PCs hire him, maybe he charges them 10g a day. Hell, he could charge 'em 500g a day and it wouldn't set them back. My point is this: the Assassin Vine is not overpowered. Just because you have to think before fighting a monster doesn't mean it's broken. Monsters are meant to be challenging. Monsters are NOT meant to be pinatas of treasure and XP. The PCs need to earn their experience, not just wade through thousands of zombies. If you just want your PCs to feel good about themselves 'cause they beat the crap out of a couple goblins, throw goblins at them. If your PCs don't want to think, don't throw Assassin Vines at them.

Assassin Vines don't just pop up out of nowhere, either; if your PCs are tromping through the Forest of Evil Death, they might prepare for fights like this. Plus, who said they have to Spot the 'vine?? Read the description; it leaves its victims at its roots for fertilizer. Don't look for the 'vine, look for a tree with a pile of meat next to it. You mentioned that they have to know it's there to attack it. Well, it gets the first attack in, maybe grapples someone. So now the PCs should be well aware of the plant strangling their buddy, so the Wiz aims and lets loose. And if you're letting the Wiz lead the party through the woods, you've got some problems you need to work out with your party. If something looks suspicious, send out a decoy. Just Summon a celestial badger and see if it gets attacked.

There are so many ways your party could've avoided this TPK. You really haven't given any information on what the fight was like, or why you think it's overpowered. So far, your argument sounds like 'It killed my party, so it's overpowered.' That's not the 'vine's problem; that's either the party's problem, or it's yours.

You're saying the assassin vine isn't more impressive than other CR 3 creatures because we should assume the players have access to a +17 modifier on spot checks?

Please tell me you're joking.
Angus Cotton
04-08-07, 06:14 PM There are so many ways your party could've avoided this TPK. You really haven't given any information on what the fight was like, or why you think it's overpowered. So far, your argument sounds like 'It killed my party, so it's overpowered.' That's not the 'vine's problem; that's either the party's problem, or it's yours.

LOL, ok, thought I presented my case pretty well with the 2 post quoting DCs and abilities, rather than just blanket statements, but whatever.

I will conceed that if one of your players is speced out for Spot, he has a good chance. I am pretty sure a druid could probably deal with it effectively too. I never said it was impossible, just too difficult for level 3. If you will read the other post in the section, other players and DMs have had similiar experiences with Assassin Vines. My contention is that an average 3rd level party will generally walk right into an Assassin Vine without seeing it, will get surprised, then get caught in the 30' radius Entangle and be unable to get out of it. Assume the player does not know that he is going to encounter an Assassin Vine when he creates his character at level 1, and therefore specs out all his abilities to deal with this sole situation when he is level 3.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angus Cotton 04-02-07, 10:04 PM	Anyone else think that the Assassin Vine is a bit overpowered for a CR 3 monster? Last night, I ran DMed a party of 4 (2 barb, 3 cleric, 3 ranger, 3 bard). I figured CR 3 would not be too much for them. Man, was I wrong. Between the Entangle spell (which they only broke free of once or twice) and the +12 grapple check, it party wiped them. I think they did a total of 7 damage to it. I felt that I had treated them a bit unfairly, so I had to think of a way to bring them back. I cheesily said a dryad had saved them. Still, CR3 Assassin Vines kick some serious ***!
OamuTheMonk 04-04-07, 10:59 PM	I had a similar experience, with a fifth-level party. They defeated it, but they came really close to losing two party members. That thing is brutal--the 20' reach, entangle, and fire resistance make it a killer. They don't call em' friendly happy vines.
dengarbountyhunter 04-05-07, 10:02 PM	Yeah... well, once you know there's an assassin vine and you stay far away enough, it can't do much to kill you. But I agree that in a fair fight, they are way over CR 3. Come on, plants with fire resistance? That's just mean, because you KNOW that at some point they will try to scorch it with fire spells. That's like DM metagaming :(.
KillerVole 04-05-07, 10:33 PM	Huh, I never had any problems with them. But I never noticed the reach, and the PC who fought it was completely focused on grapple.
HarlequinHelsing 04-05-07, 11:58 PM	CR 3, you say? Well, let's see what we can do about that... Melf's Acid Arrow is ready for casting. No acid resistance as far as I can tell. There aren't many living creatures out there resistant to Inflict spells of any level; course, they are touch spells...Ah, Spectral Hand takes care of that...You could Summon Swarm it to death...Or Spiritual Weapon. The damn thing only has 30 hp, and no initiative bonus, but unfortunately it doesn't have a discernible anatomy so sneak attacks are out. Fighter can still charge and get a solid attack in. Plus the fighter stands a reasonable chance of breaking out of the grapple. Fighting an assassin vine looks like it's a primarily spellcaster job, but not impossible in the least. Just keep your distance, and if you're traveling in the woods, bring a spotter (i.e., commoner hireling) with you.
Azar_of_Faerun 04-06-07, 03:05 AM	We've fought a Paragon Assassin Vine before
spncrbrrtt 04-07-07, 08:54 AM	I've only had one problem with them. two characters were walking away from the rest of the party to scout and came across a nest of three of them. the cleric (me) stayed back, and the paladin rushed foreward. the paladin was 5th level, and the cleric was seventh. The paladin got owned.
Angus Cotton 04-07-07, 10:58 PM	Melf's Acid Arrow is ready for casting. No acid resistance as far as I can tell. There aren't many living creatures out there resistant to Inflict spells of any level; course, they are touch spells...Ah, Spectral Hand takes care of that...You could Summon Swarm it to death...Or Spiritual Weapon. The damn thing only has 30 hp, and no initiative bonus, but unfortunately it doesn't have a discernible anatomy so sneak attacks are out. Fighter can still charge and get a solid attack in. Plus the fighter stands a reasonable chance of breaking out of the grapple. Yes, I am not arguing that it CAN be killed, or that it isnt doable. I am just saying that a level 3 character normally doesn't have the ability to make the DC 20 spot check needed to even detect its presence. I mean you have to know it is there to attack it right? Plus it can see and attack in complete darkness, which is even more an advantage. Likely, because of the Camoflage and Blindsight, a level 3 character will be surprised, and then get stuck in an Entangle. He might[I] make the DC on Entangle, as it is only 13, but you got to make that DC [I]every round while it is attacking you to not get Entangled, and once you get Entangled it is a DC 20 Str check or DC 20 Escape Artist check, which takes a full round action to activate. The barbarian in the party I DMed had a chance oif breaking out with his +6 strength check while raged, but that is only a 30% chance. Let's not forget that if he does make the check and can't get out of the area, he has to make the DC 13 Reflex save the next round to do anything like attack or whatever. Oh, and the plant gets AoO for anyone moving through threatened areas within 10', which it will likely use to do the hit/improved grapple combo. Oh, and what level 3 can beat a +12 grapple check, which it gets, mind you, automatically after it hits you as hard as any fighter would. The barb mentioned above had a +9 grapple check while raged, so there you go, he has a fighting chance, but the plant still has the advantage.
HarlequinHelsing 04-08-07, 05:26 PM	Hang on there, angus. It's a flat DC of 20, right? That means the 'vine doesn't get to roll any Hide checks, so it's always 20. So now we assume the party is traveling with a friendly Ranger. Can we assume he has 18 Wisdom? If we can't, I've got another situation below. So, this is a Ranger who's maxed out Spot with a +4 Wisdom bonus. Before you add Skill Focus or Alertness or anything like that, that's a +10 modifier. So he'll make that Spot check 50% of the time, which isn't bad. Alright, 18 Wisdom might be a little high. So let's try again with 15. So far +8. So what if he takes Alertness to put him at +10? Now, if he's an NPC Ranger who's sole purpose in life is to ferry people through 'vine infested wildernesses, he'll probably have Favored Enemy (plant), so that's +12, now. Let's assume he took Skill Focus (spot), for +15. Oh, and just for fun, make him an elf. Keep in mind, this is with 15 Wisdom. He has, at 3rd level, +17 to Spot. That means he'll make the DC 75% of the time well out of the reach of the 'vine. So the PCs hire him, maybe he charges them 10g a day. Hell, he could charge 'em 500g a day and it wouldn't set them back. My point is this: the Assassin Vine is not overpowered. Just because you have to think before fighting a monster doesn't mean it's broken. Monsters are meant to be challenging. Monsters are NOT meant to be pinatas of treasure and XP. The PCs need to earn their experience, not just wade through thousands of zombies. If you just want your PCs to feel good about themselves 'cause they beat the crap out of a couple goblins, throw goblins at them. If your PCs don't want to think, don't throw Assassin Vines at them. Assassin Vines don't just pop up out of nowhere, either; if your PCs are tromping through the Forest of Evil Death, they might prepare for fights like this. Plus, who said they have to Spot the 'vine?? Read the description; it leaves its victims at its roots for fertilizer. Don't look for the 'vine, look for a tree with a pile of meat next to it. You mentioned that they have to know it's there to attack it. Well, it gets the first attack in, maybe grapples someone. So now the PCs should be well aware of the plant strangling their buddy, so the Wiz aims and lets loose. And if you're letting the Wiz lead the party through the woods, you've got some problems you need to work out with your party. If something looks suspicious, send out a decoy. Just Summon a celestial badger and see if it gets attacked. There are so many ways your party could've avoided this TPK. You really haven't given any information on what the fight was like, or why you think it's overpowered. So far, your argument sounds like 'It killed my party, so it's overpowered.' That's not the 'vine's problem; that's either the party's problem, or it's yours.
Thiez 04-08-07, 05:46 PM	Hang on there, angus. It's a flat DC of 20, right? That means the 'vine doesn't get to roll any Hide checks, so it's always 20. So now we assume the party is traveling with a friendly Ranger. Can we assume he has 18 Wisdom? If we can't, I've got another situation below. So, this is a Ranger who's maxed out Spot with a +4 Wisdom bonus. Before you add Skill Focus or Alertness or anything like that, that's a +10 modifier. So he'll make that Spot check 50% of the time, which isn't bad. Alright, 18 Wisdom might be a little high. So let's try again with 15. So far +8. So what if he takes Alertness to put him at +10? Now, if he's an NPC Ranger who's sole purpose in life is to ferry people through 'vine infested wildernesses, he'll probably have Favored Enemy (plant), so that's +12, now. Let's assume he took Skill Focus (spot), for +15. Oh, and just for fun, make him an elf. Keep in mind, this is with 15 Wisdom. He has, at 3rd level, +17 to Spot. That means he'll make the DC 75% of the time well out of the reach of the 'vine. So the PCs hire him, maybe he charges them 10g a day. Hell, he could charge 'em 500g a day and it wouldn't set them back. My point is this: the Assassin Vine is not overpowered. Just because you have to think before fighting a monster doesn't mean it's broken. Monsters are meant to be challenging. Monsters are NOT meant to be pinatas of treasure and XP. The PCs need to earn their experience, not just wade through thousands of zombies. If you just want your PCs to feel good about themselves 'cause they beat the crap out of a couple goblins, throw goblins at them. If your PCs don't want to think, don't throw Assassin Vines at them. Assassin Vines don't just pop up out of nowhere, either; if your PCs are tromping through the Forest of Evil Death, they might prepare for fights like this. Plus, who said they have to Spot the 'vine?? Read the description; it leaves its victims at its roots for fertilizer. Don't look for the 'vine, look for a tree with a pile of meat next to it. You mentioned that they have to know it's there to attack it. Well, it gets the first attack in, maybe grapples someone. So now the PCs should be well aware of the plant strangling their buddy, so the Wiz aims and lets loose. And if you're letting the Wiz lead the party through the woods, you've got some problems you need to work out with your party. If something looks suspicious, send out a decoy. Just Summon a celestial badger and see if it gets attacked. There are so many ways your party could've avoided this TPK. You really haven't given any information on what the fight was like, or why you think it's overpowered. So far, your argument sounds like 'It killed my party, so it's overpowered.' That's not the 'vine's problem; that's either the party's problem, or it's yours. You're saying the assassin vine isn't more impressive than other CR 3 creatures because we should assume the players have access to a +17 modifier on spot checks? Please tell me you're joking.
Angus Cotton 04-08-07, 06:14 PM	There are so many ways your party could've avoided this TPK. You really haven't given any information on what the fight was like, or why you think it's overpowered. So far, your argument sounds like 'It killed my party, so it's overpowered.' That's not the 'vine's problem; that's either the party's problem, or it's yours. LOL, ok, thought I presented my case pretty well with the 2 post quoting DCs and abilities, rather than just blanket statements, but whatever. I will conceed that if one of your players is speced out for Spot, he has a good chance. I am pretty sure a druid could probably deal with it effectively too. I never said it was impossible, just too difficult for level 3. If you will read the other post in the section, other players and DMs have had similiar experiences with Assassin Vines. My contention is that an average 3rd level party will generally walk right into an Assassin Vine without seeing it, will get surprised, then get caught in the 30' radius Entangle and be unable to get out of it. Assume the player does not know that he is going to encounter an Assassin Vine when he creates his character at level 1, and therefore specs out all his abilities to deal with this sole situation when he is level 3.