Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gnarl 12-23-06, 04:15 AM	Hi everbody, Yesterday I noticed this thing called 'associate classes' and I was wondering if you could help me with these. It was there under my nose for all those years and I never noticed them before :D. Anway, I have a few questions on these associate class levels. Have you ever used them? It looks fine for low hit die critters but is it fine with high level ones? For instance, is a level 14 frost giant sorcerer really a suitable CR 16 encounter? How does it work with regards to monsters that have spell resistance based on character level? For instance, if you make a 6th level harssaf warrior (Monster Manual 3), would it have a spell resistance of 23 (17+character level)? Should I read 'the harssaf has a spell resistance equal to CR+12'? Why is the mummy lord (mummy with 10 levels of cleric) CR 15? Thank you for your help, Gnarl
runestar 12-23-06, 04:54 AM	From the SRD... Associated Class Levels Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1. Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability. Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage. A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Nonassociated Class Levels If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. Note that this is mostly a general guideline, and may not always be consistent. There will be a few scenarios which break the mold, and thus you will have to use your good sense and adjust the cr on the fly based on how powerful you think it actually is. Under the rules, a lizardfolk or gnoll with 2 lvs of cleric is cr2, fair enough. However, it also means that a stone giant elder with 14 lvs of sorc and practiced spellcaster is only a measly cr16. You might want to ad-hoc its cr to 17 or 18 instead. Why is the mummy lord (mummy with 10 levels of cleric) CR 15? Wotc is notorious for disregarding their own advice. I don't the MM really made use of the non-associated class lv rules at all. In the MM, a mindflayer sorc9 is cr17, though this was latter revised in lords of madness, where sorc was declared a non-associated class for mindflayers. However, I think divine power alone is enough to justify cleric being treated as an associated class in this case...;) As for sr, I agree it can scale out of whack. So I would recommend that it improved with cr, not HD or class lvs. This ensures that the party's chances of overcoming its sr remains fairly constant at any point.:)
Gnarl 12-23-06, 05:17 AM	Once again you're good advice.;) So if I get things straight: Since a Mind Flayer has 8 racial hit die, an illithid sorcerer 8 or an illithid fighter 8 would be CR 12?
runestar 12-23-06, 07:47 AM	Since a Mind Flayer has 8 racial hit die, an illithid sorcerer 8 or an illithid fighter 8 would be CR 12? A mindflayer sorc8 should be cr12. I am not sure if fighter should be associated or not for a mindflayer.... Apart from a personal exception I made(ogre mage - it had so little synergy with all the base classes that I made them all non-associated:P ), I am not aware of any monsters for which combat classes are considered non-associated.