Attacking golems with magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacking golems with magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deib83
10-15-06, 11:25 PM First of all an apology for making a question that has no doubt been answered previously, I just failed to find the answer.

Quoteing the Monster Manual's entry for flesh golem:

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A Flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 ronuds, with no saving throw.
A magical attack that deals electricity damage breaks any slow effect on the golem...(insert long explanation of electricity damage on golems here).

Does this mean that a golem can be beaten to a bloody pulp by barrages of magic missiles? (another thing, does Damage Reduction applies to magic missiles? does it apply to each individual missile or the whole spell?)

How about Warmage's Orbs, they do not allow Spell Resistance. Do they deal full/reduced damage? Can I expect them to deal damage AND apply the 2d6 rounds of slow, or only the slow effect without the damage, or the damage without the effect?

Thanks!
SageBahamut
10-15-06, 11:28 PM 1: Golems are immune to all spells they don't specifically list.
2: Magic Missles can't (as far as I know) target objects, which means they couldn't hit golems anyway.

If you want to shred a golem to a bloody pulp using magic, you use those yummy Conjuration (Creation) spells whose effects create nonmagical substances, like the oft-hated Lesser Orbs of Elemental Gooeyness listed element-by-element in the Spell Compendium.
Insane Pixie
10-15-06, 11:32 PM Does this mean that a golem can be beaten to a bloody pulp by barrages of magic missiles? (another thing, does Damage Reduction applies to magic missiles? does it apply to each individual missile or the whole spell?)

Magic missiles allow SR, so, no. DR would apply to each missile separately because they're each individual missiles and individual attacks.

How about Warmage's Orbs, they do not allow Spell Resistance. Do they deal full/reduced damage? Can I expect them to deal damage AND apply the 2d6 rounds of slow, or only the slow effect without the damage, or the damage without the effect?

Warmage's Orbs would deal full damage, because they do not allow SR. A cold or fire orb, because it deals cold or fire damage, respectively, would also slow the flesh golem. An orb of electricity would deal electricity damage but break the slow.

Only an adamantine weapon would overcome its DR.
Respen
10-16-06, 12:20 AM While most spells cannot affect a golem, spells that target the environment, such as transmute rock to mud on the ground underneath it function well. These work even better when reversed after the golem is in the mud.
Teron Gorefiend
10-16-06, 12:30 AM Magic missiles allow SR, so, no. DR would apply to each missile separately because they're each individual missiles and individual attacks.
Damage reduction only applies against weapon attacks (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes). Spells ignore it.

In addition, you can target a construct with magic missile. While it can't target objects, constructs are creatures, not objects; there is no overlap. Of course, if you target a golem, the spell will have no effect because of its immunity, but that's beside the point.
Insane Pixie
10-16-06, 12:42 AM Damage reduction only applies against weapon attacks (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes). Spells ignore it.

Grr. That's the one rule I always trip up on. Thanks for correcting me.
Teron Gorefiend
10-16-06, 01:05 AM Grr. That's the one rule I always trip up on. Thanks for correcting me.
It's an easy mistake to make. No harm done, eh?
runestar
10-16-06, 03:21 AM You could also try the grease spell, seeing as to how crappy their reflex saves are...:P
Slagger the Chuul
10-16-06, 04:52 AM While it can't target objects, constructs are creatures, not objects; there is no overlap.

Except for intelligent items, which are a completely different kettle of fish. Possibly even an intelligent kettle of fish.
Deib83
10-16-06, 12:36 PM Thanks a bunch, that clears a lot of things up for me.

I used to think that golems were some kind of crazy unstoppable war machines since my DM assumed that they were immune to ALL magical effects in any possible way. (that includes casting grease underneath them)

It is a whole different story now that I know that a warmage with grease can own them so easily :)
Teron Gorefiend
10-16-06, 06:37 PM Except for intelligent items, which are a completely different kettle of fish. Possibly even an intelligent kettle of fish.
Oh yeah... you can't cast magic missile on those, right?
Ogre4Hire
10-16-06, 11:28 PM Thanks a bunch, that clears a lot of things up for me.

I used to think that golems were some kind of crazy unstoppable war machines since my DM assumed that they were immune to ALL magical effects in any possible way. (that includes casting grease underneath them)

It is a whole different story now that I know that a warmage with grease can own them so easily :)

In previous editions, Golems were immune to all magical effects, not just spells and SLAs. However, this still didn't give them immunity to effects that target the environment. I was in one campaign where a well placed Disintigrate sent an Adamantine Golem crashing down through three levels of the dungeon.

Golems are also not able to automatically overcome illusions that are cast on others (Invisibility, for example).
Slagger the Chuul
10-17-06, 03:44 AM Oh yeah... you can't cast magic missile on those, right?

That's where things get murky. According to page 268 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, intelligent items are considered constructs. That means that you can target them with magic missile, although the most common ones have enough hardness to simply ignore such pitiful attacks.

Now, I said "murky" because it doesn't say whether or not they can still be "objects", "items", or "magic items" as opposed to just being "intelligent items" (it's a bit like the difference between touch attacks and an incorporeal touch attack). Normally, you'd assume that being a construct means that it's not an object/item anymore, but that swiftly strolls into very strange territory.

Why?

Because a variety of spells and effects work only on objects or items, or they affect them differently. For example, if an intelligent sword is a construct like a golem, but not an object or item, then spells like locate object or mordenkainen's disjunction become completely ineffective against it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deib83 10-15-06, 11:25 PM	First of all an apology for making a question that has no doubt been answered previously, I just failed to find the answer. Quoteing the Monster Manual's entry for flesh golem: Immunity to Magic (Ex): A Flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 ronuds, with no saving throw. A magical attack that deals electricity damage breaks any slow effect on the golem...(insert long explanation of electricity damage on golems here). Does this mean that a golem can be beaten to a bloody pulp by barrages of magic missiles? (another thing, does Damage Reduction applies to magic missiles? does it apply to each individual missile or the whole spell?) How about Warmage's Orbs, they do not allow Spell Resistance. Do they deal full/reduced damage? Can I expect them to deal damage AND apply the 2d6 rounds of slow, or only the slow effect without the damage, or the damage without the effect? Thanks!
SageBahamut 10-15-06, 11:28 PM	1: Golems are immune to all spells they don't specifically list. 2: Magic Missles can't (as far as I know) target objects, which means they couldn't hit golems anyway. If you want to shred a golem to a bloody pulp using magic, you use those yummy Conjuration (Creation) spells whose effects create nonmagical substances, like the oft-hated Lesser Orbs of Elemental Gooeyness listed element-by-element in the Spell Compendium.
Insane Pixie 10-15-06, 11:32 PM	Does this mean that a golem can be beaten to a bloody pulp by barrages of magic missiles? (another thing, does Damage Reduction applies to magic missiles? does it apply to each individual missile or the whole spell?) Magic missiles allow SR, so, no. DR would apply to each missile separately because they're each individual missiles and individual attacks. How about Warmage's Orbs, they do not allow Spell Resistance. Do they deal full/reduced damage? Can I expect them to deal damage AND apply the 2d6 rounds of slow, or only the slow effect without the damage, or the damage without the effect? Warmage's Orbs would deal full damage, because they do not allow SR. A cold or fire orb, because it deals cold or fire damage, respectively, would also slow the flesh golem. An orb of electricity would deal electricity damage but break the slow. Only an adamantine weapon would overcome its DR.
Respen 10-16-06, 12:20 AM	While most spells cannot affect a golem, spells that target the environment, such as transmute rock to mud on the ground underneath it function well. These work even better when reversed after the golem is in the mud.
Teron Gorefiend 10-16-06, 12:30 AM	Magic missiles allow SR, so, no. DR would apply to each missile separately because they're each individual missiles and individual attacks. Damage reduction only applies against weapon attacks (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes). Spells ignore it. In addition, you can target a construct with magic missile. While it can't target objects, constructs are creatures, not objects; there is no overlap. Of course, if you target a golem, the spell will have no effect because of its immunity, but that's beside the point.
Insane Pixie 10-16-06, 12:42 AM	Damage reduction only applies against weapon attacks (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes). Spells ignore it. Grr. That's the one rule I always trip up on. Thanks for correcting me.
Teron Gorefiend 10-16-06, 01:05 AM	Grr. That's the one rule I always trip up on. Thanks for correcting me. It's an easy mistake to make. No harm done, eh?
runestar 10-16-06, 03:21 AM	You could also try the grease spell, seeing as to how crappy their reflex saves are...:P
Slagger the Chuul 10-16-06, 04:52 AM	While it can't target objects, constructs are creatures, not objects; there is no overlap. Except for intelligent items, which are a completely different kettle of fish. Possibly even an intelligent kettle of fish.
Deib83 10-16-06, 12:36 PM	Thanks a bunch, that clears a lot of things up for me. I used to think that golems were some kind of crazy unstoppable war machines since my DM assumed that they were immune to ALL magical effects in any possible way. (that includes casting grease underneath them) It is a whole different story now that I know that a warmage with grease can own them so easily :)
Teron Gorefiend 10-16-06, 06:37 PM	Except for intelligent items, which are a completely different kettle of fish. Possibly even an intelligent kettle of fish. Oh yeah... you can't cast magic missile on those, right?
Ogre4Hire 10-16-06, 11:28 PM	Thanks a bunch, that clears a lot of things up for me. I used to think that golems were some kind of crazy unstoppable war machines since my DM assumed that they were immune to ALL magical effects in any possible way. (that includes casting grease underneath them) It is a whole different story now that I know that a warmage with grease can own them so easily :) In previous editions, Golems were immune to all magical effects, not just spells and SLAs. However, this still didn't give them immunity to effects that target the environment. I was in one campaign where a well placed Disintigrate sent an Adamantine Golem crashing down through three levels of the dungeon. Golems are also not able to automatically overcome illusions that are cast on others (Invisibility, for example).
Slagger the Chuul 10-17-06, 03:44 AM	Oh yeah... you can't cast magic missile on those, right? That's where things get murky. According to page 268 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, intelligent items are considered constructs. That means that you can target them with magic missile, although the most common ones have enough hardness to simply ignore such pitiful attacks. Now, I said "murky" because it doesn't say whether or not they can still be "objects", "items", or "magic items" as opposed to just being "intelligent items" (it's a bit like the difference between touch attacks and an incorporeal touch attack). Normally, you'd assume that being a construct means that it's not an object/item anymore, but that swiftly strolls into very strange territory. Why? Because a variety of spells and effects work only on objects or items, or they affect them differently. For example, if an intelligent sword is a construct like a golem, but not an object or item, then spells like locate object or mordenkainen's disjunction become completely ineffective against it.