Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EldonG 10-17-05, 01:23 AM	I remember seein' 'em somewhere, but now I can't find 'em, when I wanna use one. What book are the Avatars in, anyhow??? :confused:
rampant 10-17-05, 01:25 AM	avatars of what an avatar is a creation usualy of an other wise abstract or primal forces you need to specify what they were avatars of
EldonG 10-17-05, 02:28 AM	avatars of what an avatar is a creation usualy of an other wise abstract or primal forces you need to specify what they were avatars of Gods...and Demon Princes...and the like. I need Orcus, actually...but not the real Orcus - just his avatar.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-17-05, 09:33 AM	Gods...and Demon Princes...and the like. I need Orcus, actually...but not the real Orcus - just his avatar. Deities and Demigods has stats for deities, and rules for creating avatars. But they're a joke. Ignore this book like it spreads a plague that makes you stupid. It's a waste of paper, and outside of good art it has no redeeming qualities. BoVD has stats for Orcus, but they're a joke. Treat those stats as just a projected avatar and you'll be fine. Allow me to explain: 1) 3e retroactively removed the divinity of archfiends for those who were deities in previous editions. 2) 3e also trashes the fact that archfiends were on the same power scale as deities in previous editions even for those archfiends who were not deities. 3) 3.x treats gods and archfiends as monsters to kill, not as entities of mystery, terror and awe. Stats cannot encompass such beings in their entirety. I can accept avatar stats for them, but not the true beings, and 3e dropped the ball on this in every way. You can't truly define such beings, some of whom have existed since the origin of the planes, by just tacking on a lot of hit dice and saying 'but if we made X stronger, then PCs wouldn't be able to fight them and kill them, so we can't make them stronger'. You just make a fool of yourself as such and have a result that no one is pleased with the outcome for. 4) Even if you accept the idea of having stats for the actual beings themselves, the 3e stats don't use the epic level rules for either gods or archfiends, nor do they use the rules for deities when working with archfiends when it would be applicable.
EldonG 10-17-05, 10:01 AM	Hmmm... I would have sworn I had seen a bunch of (too low) avatars in one book or another...avatars with CRs around 10...none less than 9, or over 11 or 12... Did I imagine that? Perhaps avatar is the wrong word...they were some representative of the power in question...but they were waaaaaaay wimped out... Gads...please tell me I didn't dream it... :confused: :weep:
Seraph of Babel 10-17-05, 11:24 AM	You are thinking of aspects from Miniatures Handbook. They are not avatars, even less than that. IIRC, they are described as some sort of reverbation or echo of a deity's power. Aspect of Orcus (CR9) is also in there. If you use Orcus as a deity and wants his avatar, I'd suggest using Orcus (CR28) in Book of Vile Darkness, and giving it divine rank 0. In official Deities & Demigods rules, an avatar is basically as the deity but with half his divine ranks. Refer to Divine SRD - http://www.d20srd.org
EldonG 10-17-05, 11:39 AM	Thanks...that's what I was remembering! I can't use the full, beefy *avatar* from the BOVD...but...maybe I can beef up the aspect! CR 19-20 would be perfect.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-17-05, 02:55 PM	You are thinking of aspects from Miniatures Handbook. They are not avatars, even less than that. IIRC, they are described as some sort of reverbation or echo of a deity's power. Aspect of Orcus (CR9) is also in there. It's actually a pretty cool idea :)