Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robertliguori 05-06-05, 12:17 PM	So, in one of my upcoming adventures, there is going to be a ranger and a beast going at it. The PCs will have the option of picking a side. The ranger I can do, but I have a few questions about my wolf beastie. His stats are presented here: Advanced Awakened Wolf Large Magical Beast (Augmented animal) Hit Dice:6d8 + 42 (66 hp) Initiative:+4 Speed:50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 17(+4 Dex, +4 natural, -1 size), touch 13, flat-footed 13 BAB/Grapple:+4/+16 Attack: Bite +15 (1d8+12) Full Attack: Bite +15 (1d8+12) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Trip Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +3 Abilities: Str 27, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Hide[9] +9, Listen[9] +10, Move Silently[9] +13, Spot[9] +10, Survival[9] +10 (*+14 tracking) Feats: Track[B], Combat Expertise[1], Improved Trip[3], Knock-Down[6] Alignment: N CR: 4 Trip (Ex): An advanced awakened wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+16 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. Skills: *Advanced awakened wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. Does this look like a CR 4? It seems to me that even with no extra attacks from Improved Trip, this guy is big and bad enough to storm into the center of the party and start dropping people. At level 4, he can weather full-attacks for a few rounds, and with people needing to make two opposed strength checks against +16, even the enlarged barbarian will go down. His AC is high enough that full-power-attacking isn't a good idea, and not being humanoid, is resistant to many of the will-save-or-die spells available at these levels. On the other hand, he is just an animal advanced four hit die, with a +1 CR for becoming large. Any thoughts?
Gilean 05-06-05, 01:25 PM	Awaken, +1 CR (not official, but reasonable). Also, did the thing got awakened before choosing it's first feat? Standard wolves have 2 int and can't qualify for expertise. Awakened wolf starts with 4 HD, and, in this case, one could take expertise at 3rd level. Does knockdown require expertise or improved trip? And yes, the CR is too low. For comparison, check dire/legendary wolf. I'm too lazy to check.
olshanski_home 05-06-05, 01:53 PM	Wolf Racial Modifiers: Str +2; Dex +4; Con +4 Size modifiers: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +4. 4HD gives a free +1 to some stat. Net total: +10 STR, +2 Dex, +8 CON. Somehow, you got Str 27, Dex 18, Con 24 Counting backwards, you started with abilities of: STR 17, Dex 16, CON 16. Elite array is 15, 14, 13, x, x, x I don't know how you got your STR, DEX, and CON up so high. I think those above-and-beyond skill modifiers rate an additional +1 CR. So, my analysis. 1 Base CR for wolf +2 CR (advancement 4 HD + size) +1 (awakened) +1 (elite array) +1 (stats above and beyond the elite array) There you have it, CR6... plus the slight problem of assigning a feat that was not according to the rules. I am also not clear what version of "knockdown" you are using. I don't have complete warrior. If you are using the one in sword and fist, then it isn't 3.5 compliant.
robertliguori 05-06-05, 02:08 PM	I'm using the one from the SRD. If you deal more than 10 damage in a melee attack, you can make a trip attempt. Basically, if the wolf attacks normally, he gets to make two trip attempts, and the opponent needs to win both. Also, I use a rather high base stat array: the wolf is using my standard NPC point array (30 point buy, +1 str for level). Finally, none of the example monsters with PC levels have a higher-than-normal CR for their elite stat arrays, beyond the class levels themselves. Given that, if I'm going to have a CR adjustment, then I should tack on a fighter level or something.
olshanski_home 05-06-05, 05:09 PM	Hmmm. Could you post a link to the SRD entry for Knockdown? I cannot seem to find it... and I'd certainly like to use it. The MM suggests that using the elite array instead of the standard array is worth a +1 CR. IE: The difference between 11,11,11,10,10,10 and 15,14,13,12,10,8 is one CR. If your elite array is 17,16,15,14,12,10. (or whatever) that doesn't mean it is still only a +1 CR... it probably means that the CR should be even higher... like +2 The wolf you created has abilities and does damage consistent with a CR6 creature. Lets compare the wolf to a CR7 Hill Giant Giant Wolf HP 102 66 Init: –1 +4 Spd: 30ft. 50ft. AC 20 17 Atk +16 +15 Dmg 2d8+10 1d8+12 Fort 12 13 Ref 3 9 Will 4 3 Giant has reach, rock throwing, and +2.5 more average damage. Wolf has highly developed tripping/knockdown (call this even) Giant has better AC, Wolf has better Initiative and Speed and Saves Giant has 35% more HP. That is the main difference.
robertliguori 05-07-05, 11:56 AM	My point is that the player's stats are similarly high (higher, in fact). The stat boost is simply to level the playing field. However, I like the comparison with the giant very much. It's official, my wolfie is being statted as CR 6.
Gilean 05-07-05, 01:15 PM	I'm using the one from the SRD. If you deal more than 10 damage in a melee attack, you can make a trip attempt. Basically, if the wolf attacks normally, he gets to make two trip attempts, and the opponent needs to win both.It isn't in SRD. Post requirements.Finally, none of the example monsters with PC levels have a higher-than-normal CR for their elite stat arrays, beyond the class levels themselves. Given that, if I'm going to have a CR adjustment, then I should tack on a fighter level or something.The CR boost by book is similar. Is your entire point to throw min/maxed tripping machine of doom at your players? If so, let me sincerely suggest using half-dragon toads or bats instead. The breath is quite far from CR.