Awesome Blow and Attacks of Opportunity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awesome Blow and Attacks of Opportunity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BladeDrinker
08-17-05, 02:12 AM When a monster hits a creature with an awesome blow and the creature is knocked back 10 feet, does the movement provoke attacks of opportunity? I would guess no, but the feat doesn't specifically state that it doesn't.

Interestingly, if it does provoke an AoO, two giants could hit a character back and forth between each other like a ping pong ball.
Lyinginbedmon
08-17-05, 06:54 AM If the creature enters another creature's threatened area, then it provokes attacks of opportunities of any creature whose area it enters.

So yes, the two giants will now be settling rules debates of Tiny-Thing Dodgeball
The Abominable Darkling
08-17-05, 12:52 PM I'm inclined to say no. The target of the awesome blow isn't moving itself. "Movement", in general, doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Taking a move action does (usually). Also, you never provoke an attack for entering a threatened square. You provoke one for leaving a threatened square. (Not that it matters in this case since the giants have reach.)

In any case, even if you decide that the movement does provoke an attack of opportunity, you couldn't use that attack for an Awesome Blow. Awesome Blow requires a standard action.
yonman
08-17-05, 04:21 PM It DOES provoke an attack or opportunity from Awesome Blow. First, there is nothing that says it doesnt partly because things like Bull Rush DO provoke attacks of opportunity when used.

Second, there is a monster that uses Awesome Blow Feat, I believe it was the Briarthorn or something like that, a big plant monster in MM2 that gives a strategy with it's Awesome blow. It specifically states that Awesome blow provokes an attack of opportunity and it would then get it's thorn attack on the person in response.

Only specified spells/powers like Energy Push which states that it doesn't provoke an opportunity do not.
Arishem
08-17-05, 06:40 PM The character being moved through of a mobs threat range would indeed provoke an attack of oporunity.

But you couldnt bounce him back and forth using Awesome blow becasue it requires a standard action to use that feat.. just a normal attack cant be turned into an Awesome Blow. (as The Abominable Darkling pointed out already)
The Abominable Darkling
08-17-05, 11:56 PM It DOES provoke an attack or opportunity from Awesome Blow. First, there is nothing that says it doesnt partly because things like Bull Rush DO provoke attacks of opportunity when used.
The bull rush action also states explicitly that the movement provokes an attack of opportunity for both the attacker and the target. You can't take this as a general rule on motion and attacks of opportunity.

From a more intuitive standpoint, a creature being knocked back by an awesome blow is moving much more quickly than one that is bull rushed or one that moves of its own volition. There'd be precious little time to take advantage of the "opportunity."

Second, there is a monster that uses Awesome Blow Feat, I believe it was the Briarthorn or something like that, a big plant monster in MM2 that gives a strategy with it's Awesome blow. It specifically states that Awesome blow provokes an attack of opportunity and it would then get it's thorn attack on the person in response.
So now you're saying that a creature using awesome blow automatically gets an attack of opportunity against its target because the target leaves its threatened area? That really is utter nonsense.

Only specified spells/powers like Energy Push which states that it doesn't provoke an opportunity do not.
This is not true. Nonactions do not provoke attacks of opportunity by default.
The Abominable Darkling
08-18-05, 12:16 AM Well, I check up on the battlebriar (in Monster Manual III), and here's what it says:
More by accident than strategy, battlebriars have developed one fighting technique that is extremely effective against Medium and smaller foes. A battlebriar moves up to its foe and uses its Awesome Blow feat, earning a free attack of opportunity against its foe if the feat is successful because the affected creature is pushed through a battlebriar's threatened area.
So, it seems that the author of the battlebriar agrees with your interpretation. However, I see this as evidence that the author simply doesn't understand the attack of opportunity rules. For starters, he refers to moving through a threatened area. This is old 3.0 parlance. Moving through a threatened area does not provoke an attack of opportunity--moving out of a threatened square does. This also means that this "tactic" would hardly be unique to battlebriars. Any creature with Awesome Blow would get this free attack whenever it successfully used the feat, regardless of its reach or position relative to the target.

Here are the rules on provoking attacks of opportunity:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.
Note the key word. Action. This word has a very specific game meaning. Taking an action provokes attacks of opportunity. Being moved by someone else is not an action (on your part). Nonactions do not provoke attacks of opportunity unless the rules specifically say that they do (as is the case with bull rush).
yonman
08-19-05, 04:04 PM So, it seems that the author of the battlebriar agrees with your interpretation. However, I see this as evidence that the author simply doesn't understand the attack of opportunity rules. For starters, he refers to moving through a threatened area. This is old 3.0 parlance. Moving through a threatened area does not provoke an attack of opportunity--moving out of a threatened square does. This also means that this "tactic" would hardly be unique to battlebriars. Any creature with Awesome Blow would get this free attack whenever it successfully used the feat, regardless of its reach or position relative to the target.

1) This is not 3.0 the Monster Manual III was written in v3.5. The Battlebriar like any creature, would get an attack of opportunity if you were subjected to Awesome Blow.

2) Just because another creature makes you move, doesn't mean you don't provoke an attack of opportunity when you go through a threatened space. All of the other instances that do NOT allow an AoO are specifically stated in the text, as with Energy Push and so forth. If it wasn't for this example, I wouldn't let an AoO take place for this Feat.

3) I wouldn't use the "logical" sense of how fast you're being pushed to indicate if you actually get an AoO. If you Bull Rush somebody it isn't a nudge within 6 seconds, you go flying in another direction if you're being charged, roughly the same speed if you were being hit IMHO. The only difference is you land prone with Awesome Blow.

In Summary, there isn't anything saying you CAN'T, and in this example you CAN, so I don't see the problem.

If comes up in the Errata, then I'll change my opinion.
The Abominable Darkling
08-19-05, 04:41 PM You still haven't addressed the issue of actions. Taking an action is the only way to provoke an attack of opportunity, and being hit by awesome blow is not an action. (The only exception is being bull rushed, where an attack of opportunity is explicitly indicated in the text.)

You do understand that the creature with Awesome Blow gets an attack of opportunity whenever he successfully uses the feat under your interpretation, don't you? Doesn't it seem strange that a battlebriar can kock someone flying and then get an immediate free attack against that person because of it?
Lord Schpungus
08-19-05, 04:47 PM No. I'd say it's about as easy for the Battlebriar as throwing up a baseball and hitting it is for us.

Throw baseball up.
Grab onto bat.
Swing as baseball falls.

Easy peasy.
The Abominable Darkling
08-19-05, 04:56 PM Except that the battlebriar is throwing the target away from itself. Throwing a baseball away from yourself and then hitting it with a bat would be a neat trick indeed.
yonman
08-19-05, 06:09 PM The real life examples are all kinda circumstancial at best, don't forget that melee lasts 6 seconds, and your ability to do damage isn't a 1 swing = 1 damage, but a multiple of attacks combined into one d20 roll (Unlike missile fire which is one attack = 1 damage).

Therefore, the free attack of opportunity represents your ability to do increased damage due to the person being flown back and your ability to pull it off in the d20 roll.
The Abominable Darkling
08-19-05, 06:33 PM Talk about grasping at straws. Neither commonse sense nor the rules as written support your position. The only compelling reason to play things your way is to screw the players.
Mr.Black
08-20-05, 02:30 AM Another creature that uses this weird tactic is the Indricothere, from the Fiend Folio, pages 100-101. It has an ability called 'knockback' that forces a foe to be knocked back 10 ft from the indriocthere (in addition to damaging the creature).

"If the knock back is successful, both the giant and the indriocthere take advantage of the attacks of opportunity generated as the foe leaves both creatures' threatened areas." p 101. (Fiend Folio).

It's not Awesome Blow, but it is a very similar effect.

Just another thing to consider.
The Abominable Darkling
08-20-05, 02:50 AM Indeed. Maybe I'll try sending this one off to the sage. He never seems to answer these days though.
Slagger the Chuul
08-20-05, 09:10 AM One thing comes through quite clearly in this thread:

This is why we have DMs.

Except that the battlebriar is throwing the target away from itself. Throwing a baseball away from yourself and then hitting it with a bat would be a neat trick indeed.

You're not going far enough on the analogy there. It would be like hitting the ball away from you with the bat, then hitting it again before it got out of reach. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BladeDrinker 08-17-05, 02:12 AM	When a monster hits a creature with an awesome blow and the creature is knocked back 10 feet, does the movement provoke attacks of opportunity? I would guess no, but the feat doesn't specifically state that it doesn't. Interestingly, if it does provoke an AoO, two giants could hit a character back and forth between each other like a ping pong ball.
Lyinginbedmon 08-17-05, 06:54 AM	If the creature enters another creature's threatened area, then it provokes attacks of opportunities of any creature whose area it enters. So yes, the two giants will now be settling rules debates of Tiny-Thing Dodgeball
The Abominable Darkling 08-17-05, 12:52 PM	I'm inclined to say no. The target of the awesome blow isn't moving itself. "Movement", in general, doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Taking a move action does (usually). Also, you never provoke an attack for entering a threatened square. You provoke one for leaving a threatened square. (Not that it matters in this case since the giants have reach.) In any case, even if you decide that the movement does provoke an attack of opportunity, you couldn't use that attack for an Awesome Blow. Awesome Blow requires a standard action.
yonman 08-17-05, 04:21 PM	It DOES provoke an attack or opportunity from Awesome Blow. First, there is nothing that says it doesnt partly because things like Bull Rush DO provoke attacks of opportunity when used. Second, there is a monster that uses Awesome Blow Feat, I believe it was the Briarthorn or something like that, a big plant monster in MM2 that gives a strategy with it's Awesome blow. It specifically states that Awesome blow provokes an attack of opportunity and it would then get it's thorn attack on the person in response. Only specified spells/powers like Energy Push which states that it doesn't provoke an opportunity do not.
Arishem 08-17-05, 06:40 PM	The character being moved through of a mobs threat range would indeed provoke an attack of oporunity. But you couldnt bounce him back and forth using Awesome blow becasue it requires a standard action to use that feat.. just a normal attack cant be turned into an Awesome Blow. (as The Abominable Darkling pointed out already)
The Abominable Darkling 08-17-05, 11:56 PM	It DOES provoke an attack or opportunity from Awesome Blow. First, there is nothing that says it doesnt partly because things like Bull Rush DO provoke attacks of opportunity when used. The bull rush action also states explicitly that the movement provokes an attack of opportunity for both the attacker and the target. You can't take this as a general rule on motion and attacks of opportunity. From a more intuitive standpoint, a creature being knocked back by an awesome blow is moving much more quickly than one that is bull rushed or one that moves of its own volition. There'd be precious little time to take advantage of the "opportunity." Second, there is a monster that uses Awesome Blow Feat, I believe it was the Briarthorn or something like that, a big plant monster in MM2 that gives a strategy with it's Awesome blow. It specifically states that Awesome blow provokes an attack of opportunity and it would then get it's thorn attack on the person in response. So now you're saying that a creature using awesome blow automatically gets an attack of opportunity against its target because the target leaves its threatened area? That really is utter nonsense. Only specified spells/powers like Energy Push which states that it doesn't provoke an opportunity do not. This is not true. Nonactions do not provoke attacks of opportunity by default.
The Abominable Darkling 08-18-05, 12:16 AM	Well, I check up on the battlebriar (in Monster Manual III), and here's what it says: More by accident than strategy, battlebriars have developed one fighting technique that is extremely effective against Medium and smaller foes. A battlebriar moves up to its foe and uses its Awesome Blow feat, earning a free attack of opportunity against its foe if the feat is successful because the affected creature is pushed through a battlebriar's threatened area. So, it seems that the author of the battlebriar agrees with your interpretation. However, I see this as evidence that the author simply doesn't understand the attack of opportunity rules. For starters, he refers to moving through a threatened area. This is old 3.0 parlance. Moving through a threatened area does not provoke an attack of opportunity--moving out of a threatened square does. This also means that this "tactic" would hardly be unique to battlebriars. Any creature with Awesome Blow would get this free attack whenever it successfully used the feat, regardless of its reach or position relative to the target. Here are the rules on provoking attacks of opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square. Note the key word. Action. This word has a very specific game meaning. Taking an action provokes attacks of opportunity. Being moved by someone else is not an action (on your part). Nonactions do not provoke attacks of opportunity unless the rules specifically say that they do (as is the case with bull rush).
yonman 08-19-05, 04:04 PM	So, it seems that the author of the battlebriar agrees with your interpretation. However, I see this as evidence that the author simply doesn't understand the attack of opportunity rules. For starters, he refers to moving through a threatened area. This is old 3.0 parlance. Moving through a threatened area does not provoke an attack of opportunity--moving out of a threatened square does. This also means that this "tactic" would hardly be unique to battlebriars. Any creature with Awesome Blow would get this free attack whenever it successfully used the feat, regardless of its reach or position relative to the target. 1) This is not 3.0 the Monster Manual III was written in v3.5. The Battlebriar like any creature, would get an attack of opportunity if you were subjected to Awesome Blow. 2) Just because another creature makes you move, doesn't mean you don't provoke an attack of opportunity when you go through a threatened space. All of the other instances that do NOT allow an AoO are specifically stated in the text, as with Energy Push and so forth. If it wasn't for this example, I wouldn't let an AoO take place for this Feat. 3) I wouldn't use the "logical" sense of how fast you're being pushed to indicate if you actually get an AoO. If you Bull Rush somebody it isn't a nudge within 6 seconds, you go flying in another direction if you're being charged, roughly the same speed if you were being hit IMHO. The only difference is you land prone with Awesome Blow. In Summary, there isn't anything saying you CAN'T, and in this example you CAN, so I don't see the problem. If comes up in the Errata, then I'll change my opinion.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 04:41 PM	You still haven't addressed the issue of actions. Taking an action is the only way to provoke an attack of opportunity, and being hit by awesome blow is not an action. (The only exception is being bull rushed, where an attack of opportunity is explicitly indicated in the text.) You do understand that the creature with Awesome Blow gets an attack of opportunity whenever he successfully uses the feat under your interpretation, don't you? Doesn't it seem strange that a battlebriar can kock someone flying and then get an immediate free attack against that person because of it?
Lord Schpungus 08-19-05, 04:47 PM	No. I'd say it's about as easy for the Battlebriar as throwing up a baseball and hitting it is for us. Throw baseball up. Grab onto bat. Swing as baseball falls. Easy peasy.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 04:56 PM	Except that the battlebriar is throwing the target away from itself. Throwing a baseball away from yourself and then hitting it with a bat would be a neat trick indeed.
yonman 08-19-05, 06:09 PM	The real life examples are all kinda circumstancial at best, don't forget that melee lasts 6 seconds, and your ability to do damage isn't a 1 swing = 1 damage, but a multiple of attacks combined into one d20 roll (Unlike missile fire which is one attack = 1 damage). Therefore, the free attack of opportunity represents your ability to do increased damage due to the person being flown back and your ability to pull it off in the d20 roll.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 06:33 PM	Talk about grasping at straws. Neither commonse sense nor the rules as written support your position. The only compelling reason to play things your way is to screw the players.
Mr.Black 08-20-05, 02:30 AM	Another creature that uses this weird tactic is the Indricothere, from the Fiend Folio, pages 100-101. It has an ability called 'knockback' that forces a foe to be knocked back 10 ft from the indriocthere (in addition to damaging the creature). "If the knock back is successful, both the giant and the indriocthere take advantage of the attacks of opportunity generated as the foe leaves both creatures' threatened areas." p 101. (Fiend Folio). It's not Awesome Blow, but it is a very similar effect. Just another thing to consider.
The Abominable Darkling 08-20-05, 02:50 AM	Indeed. Maybe I'll try sending this one off to the sage. He never seems to answer these days though.
Slagger the Chuul 08-20-05, 09:10 AM	One thing comes through quite clearly in this thread: This is why we have DMs. Except that the battlebriar is throwing the target away from itself. Throwing a baseball away from yourself and then hitting it with a bat would be a neat trick indeed. You're not going far enough on the analogy there. It would be like hitting the ball away from you with the bat, then hitting it again before it got out of reach. :)