Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SiCK_Boy 06-28-07, 01:54 PM	Probably a very simple question, but I couldn't find the answer... When a Tanar'ri or Baatezu uses its summon ability, how long does the effect lasts? If you could please indicate were the answer can be found (book and page reference, I'd appreciate).
Kain Darkwind 06-28-07, 02:27 PM	Probably a very simple question, but I couldn't find the answer... When a Tanar'ri or Baatezu uses its summon ability, how long does the effect lasts? If you could please indicate were the answer can be found (book and page reference, I'd appreciate). An hour (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#summon). Sorry I don't have a page reference, but I'd guess you could check the appropriate appendix in the Monster Manual.
Dyne 06-28-07, 06:42 PM	On a related note, I've always wondered: Does the summoned creature have a a separate CR and give out separate XP for defeating it, or is the summoning ability considered part of the original creature? It can make a huge difference, especially when fighting two Balor (one of which was summoned by the other).
snakeman830 06-28-07, 09:19 PM	The summoning ability is already figured into the CR of the creature. Even if a balor summons another Balor, it is still a single CR20 encounter, not two CR20 encounters.
zeratulcraft 06-28-07, 09:35 PM	See, my DM tested this theory, he had a number of higher level devils in an encounter, like...a lot of them. Pre-encounter, they all used their summon abilities, somehow, the encounter doubled from 10-15 devils to 20-30. That is a signifigant change. And easily increased the hardness of the encounter. But no EL change. Maybe DND just breaks down at mass-ish combat.
Talisman 06-28-07, 09:54 PM	Pre-encounter, they all used their summon abilities, somehow, the encounter doubled from 10-15 devils to 20-30. The thing is, it's generally assumed that summoning another fiend happens during the encounter, and thus takes up a precious combat action. Sure, if a balor summons another balor, that's double your balor...but that's also a full, uninterrupted round during which the fighter and paladin are beating on him, the rogue's backstabbing, the spellcasters and blasting away...and the balor just stands there and takes it. If the devils had all summoned allies, literally before the encounter, I would have considered each fiend to be worth full XP, since the use of summon abilities didn't slow down the devils. Consider: A wizard casts summon monster LVX to summon a Dire Icky Thing. Does the party get more XP for the D.I.T.? No, because it's considered a special ability of the wizard who used a combat action to summon it. The same wizard casts improved wicked greater create undead to create a vampiric devourer lich. A week later, the party storms the Generic Evil Castle and has to fight both the wizard and the V.D.L. Full XP for both, because even though the wizard created it, the V.D.L. did not cost an action or reduce his number of available spells. Maybe DND just breaks down at mass-ish combat. Yes, it does.
Sildatorak 06-28-07, 10:14 PM	Remember, summoned monsters are subject to dispel magic.
Morwen 06-29-07, 07:29 AM	But no EL change. This is wrong, though. The Encounter Level (which only measures if you should put your group of PCs up against the encounter) does indeed increase if they all use their summon abilities beforehand, since the fight is more deadly. However, the XP reward stays the same.
primemover003 06-29-07, 10:51 AM	Sure, if a balor summons another balor, that's double your balor...but that's also a full, uninterrupted round during which the fighter and paladin are beating on him, the rogue's backstabbing, the spellcasters and blasting away...and the balor just stands there and takes it. Which kinda sucks to even use the summon ability:-(
runestar 06-29-07, 11:33 AM	The FAQ has this to say...note the highlighted parts.:) Do characters receive experience for killing a summoned monster? What about undead created with animate dead or an outsider called with planar ally? As a general rule, any creature whose presence on the battlefield is a direct result of another creature using one of its special abilities (such as summoning) during the battle doesn’t grant XP to characters defeating it. This is because the monster is counted as part of the challenge provided by the summoning monster. A pit fiend’s Challenge Rating (and thus the XP reward granted for defeating him) already takes into account the fact that he can summon allies; without that ability, he’d be worth less XP. However, there are plenty of situations where a DM should make exceptions to this general rule. Any time that a creature can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally. Let’s look at a few examples to see how this might work in play. Example 1: Over the course of many days, a powerful necromancer stocks his lair with undead created via spells. When the PCs fight the necromancer and these undead minions, the necromancer has his full array of spells, so the act of creating these undead hasn’t reduced the challenge he provides. Thus, the Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the undead. Example 2: The same necromancer is on the run, knowing the PCs aren’t far behind. He spends some of his precious daily allotment of spells to animate a few zombies, only minutes before the PCs bust down his door and attack. That’s a lot more like summoning, since the creation of the undead represents a direct drain on the necromancer’s immediately available resources. Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same. The Sage recommends awarding one-half XP for defeating the undead. Example 3: An evil cleric uses lesser planar ally to call a succubus to serve him as a spy for 7 days, and sends her up against the PCs (without being present himself). The Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the succubus. If the PCs then track down and defeat the evil cleric before he’s able to prepare spells again, it’s tempting to reduce the XP award for the cleric by a little bit (since he’s down one 4th level spell), but it’s probably not worth the effort. When in doubt, err on the side of awarding XP. The DM shouldn’t be looking for opportunities to deny the PCs fairly earned XP—if they bested the challenge, they should reap the reward. Which implies that when facing a balor, it is expected that he will be bringing in a 2nd balor, and the party should be prepared to tackle this threat appropriately (magic circle, AMF, greater dispelling etc).:) Also, I was under the impression that summoning for a fiend takes only a standard action? Since for monsters, SLAs are 1 standard action by default unless stated otherwise, while for players, activation time is 1 standard action or the spell's actual casting time, whichever is longer.:P
Talisman 06-29-07, 08:07 PM	Also, I was under the impression that summoning for a fiend takes only a standard action? Since for monsters, SLAs are 1 standard action by default unless stated otherwise, while for players, activation time is 1 standard action or the spell's actual casting time, whichever is longer.:P Even so, that's one standard action the balor can't use to go full attack on you...or use blasphemy, dominate monster, power word stun, implosion...etc. And, of course, the summoned balor can't immediately try to summon another balor. If he could...:gah:
primemover003 06-29-07, 09:23 PM	Actually the round after the fiend uses Blasphemy would be a good time to summon! Actually doing a little checking turns up a debate on the time it takes a demon or devil to summon when used as a spell-like ability. The MM says SLA's take 1 standard action unless the monsters description says otherwise. Now checking the SRD In find it's different, yet I've found no errata or FAQ that backs it up (d20srd.org's site that is).