Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chrome_Golem 12-10-06, 12:41 PM	MM1(3.5) says that a Balor's +1 Vorpal Longsword deals 2d6+8 damage, however, shouldn't this be 2d6+13 to reflect the Balor's 35 strength (+12 bonus) and the +1 enhancement bonus of the blade itself, or am I missing something?
Karak_Nechot 12-10-06, 12:45 PM	It's a mistake. It should have been in the errata. No one knows why it isn't.
Chrome_Golem 12-10-06, 12:49 PM	It's a mistake. It should have been in the errata. No one knows why it isn't. I thought as much. I guess this reflects the Balor's 3.0 stats and just weren't changed over properly? Thus it's +1 flaming whip should deal 1d4+7 than, correct? Anyone else know of any other MM1 errata that has slipped past the editors?
Karak_Nechot 12-10-06, 01:17 PM	I thought as much. I guess this reflects the Balor's 3.0 stats and just weren't changed over properly? Thus it's +1 flaming whip should deal 1d4+7 than, correct? Precisely Anyone else know of any other MM1 errata that has slipped past the editors? Nothing major that I know of. At least, nothing that blatant. Though I still wonder how they justify the balor as CR 20.
Chrome_Golem 12-10-06, 02:12 PM	Though I still wonder how they justify the balor as CR 20. Probably overating Vorpal; when Vorpal takes effect it's pretty devastating though if it dosen't hit the Balor's basically weilding a +1 large sized Long Sword, which really isn't that impressive. Being able to summon a Marilith or another Balor with 100% probability is pretty sweet though.
Keterys 12-10-06, 03:34 PM	And the possibility of having two balor explosions... honestly, a lot of it might just be the balor explosion.
Chrome_Golem 12-10-06, 05:43 PM	And the possibility of having two balor explosions... honestly, a lot of it might just be the balor explosion. Yeah, that does make for a nasty swan song.
meta 12-10-06, 06:13 PM	Anyone else know of any other MM1 errata that has slipped past the editors? The Balor as specified in MM3.5 appears to be missing 23 skill points. It is an outsider, which means it gets 8+Int skill points per level (quadruple at first level). The "average" Balor has an Intelligence of 24, giving it a +7 Int modifier, for a total of 15 skill points per level. This means the baseline Balor has 15 * (HD+3) = 15 * (20+3) = 345 skill points available. However, the skills listed for the Balor are: Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls). A little analysis shows that the listed Balor is only using 322 skill points, the poor dude! That is, it has maximized 14 different skills, not 15. Bluff = 31 (+23 ranks, +8 cha) Concentration = 33 (+23 ranks, +10 con) Diplomacy = 35 (+23 ranks, +8 cha, +2 SenseMotive synergy, +2 Bluff synergy) Disguise = 8 ( 0 ranks, +8 cha) Hide = 26 (+23 ranks, +7 dex, -4 Size Adjustment) Intimidate = 33 (+23 ranks, +8 cha, +2 Bluff synergy) Knowledge(1*) = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) Knowledge(2*) = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) Listen = 38 (+23 ranks, +7 wis, +8 racial) MoveSilently = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 dex) Search = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) SenseMotive = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 wis) Spellcraft = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) Spot = 38 (+23 ranks, +7 wis, +8 racial) Survival = 7 ( 0 ranks, +7 wis) UseMagicDevice = 31 (+23 ranks, +8 cha) Not at the same level of "error" as the damage specification, but skills are important :-)
Chrome_Golem 12-10-06, 07:02 PM	The Balor as specified in MM3.5 appears to be missing 23 skill points. It is an outsider, which means it gets 8+Int skill points per level (quadruple at first level). The "average" Balor has an Intelligence of 24, giving it a +7 Int modifier, for a total of 15 skill points per level. This means the baseline Balor has 15 * (HD+3) = 15 * (20+3) = 345 skill points available. However, the skills listed for the Balor are: Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls). A little analysis shows that the listed Balor is only using 322 skill points, the poor dude! That is, it has maximized 14 different skills, not 15. Bluff = 31 (+23 ranks, +8 cha) Concentration = 33 (+23 ranks, +10 con) Diplomacy = 35 (+23 ranks, +8 cha, +2 SenseMotive synergy, +2 Bluff synergy) Disguise = 8 ( 0 ranks, +8 cha) Hide = 26 (+23 ranks, +7 dex, -4 Size Adjustment) Intimidate = 33 (+23 ranks, +8 cha, +2 Bluff synergy) Knowledge(1*) = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) Knowledge(2*) = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) Listen = 38 (+23 ranks, +7 wis, +8 racial) MoveSilently = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 dex) Search = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) SenseMotive = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 wis) Spellcraft = 30 (+23 ranks, +7 int) Spot = 38 (+23 ranks, +7 wis, +8 racial) Survival = 7 ( 0 ranks, +7 wis) UseMagicDevice = 31 (+23 ranks, +8 cha) Not at the same level of "error" as the damage specification, but skills are important :-) Wow, so the Balor is becoming a towering stack of errata. And yes, skills are very important, just as important as damage in many cases. I suppose placing those extra skill points on Survival and/or Disguise would be the best route. Thanks for pointing that out meta :).
SolemnDusk 12-10-06, 08:07 PM	Emphasis mine: Wow, so the Balor is becoming a towering stack of errata. And yes, skills are very important, just as important as damage in many cases. I suppose placing those extra skill points on Survival and/or Disguise would be the best route. Thanks for pointing that out meta :). LOL at the thought of a Balor wearing one of those big nose/glasses/eyebrows masks and tip-toeing around behind some adventurers... Tordek: Hey, guys, you hear somethin'? Lidda: Footsteps! Mialee: Hey, what's that? (Looks behind them) Balor: (hunkers down, looking innocent, waves cutely) Jozan: Oh, hi! Tordek: Who the **** is that? Lidda: I dunno, but he's hot! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Chrome_Golem 12-10-06, 08:33 PM	Emphasis mine: LOL at the thought of a Balor wearing one of those big nose/glasses/eyebrows masks and tip-toeing around behind some adventurers... Tordek: Hey, guys, you hear somethin'? Lidda: Footsteps! Mialee: Hey, what's that? (Looks behind them) Balor: (hunkers down, looking innocent, waves cutely) Jozan: Oh, hi! Tordek: Who the **** is that? Lidda: I dunno, but he's hot! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: LOL :D. Be vewry vewry quiet, I'm hunting adventuwers...
runestar 12-10-06, 10:31 PM	That is, it has maximized 14 different skills, not 15. Is it possible that it has only these 14 skills as class skills, no more? It might be important to avoid confusion as the MM states that any skills the balor has ranks in are class skills? But losing 23 skill points is quite tame, I think the flamebrother salamander lost much more...:( Plus, I would probably play it by first summoning another balor, then have the 2 of them spam their SLAs in conjunction. Who cares about good old fashioned beatdown?:P LOL at the thought of a Balor wearing one of those big nose/glasses/eyebrows masks and tip-toeing around behind some adventurers... Cross dressing balors as the new sex symbol...:D
Roivas 12-11-06, 12:31 AM	Balors are nothing to fear if you have a primary fighter with improved sunder. When I was planning a battle that required us to take down a balor in 1 minute at 16th level, then fight a grat Wyrm White dragon, we decided it would be best to have my paladin use smite evil on his sword to guarantee I would sunder his blade without even trying, then move on to his whip. From there once it was down to 2 attacks per round use my silver outsider bane holy longsword end him in less than 8 rounds as long as the rest of our 6 person party could manage to do 100 point of damage to it. Balors are pansies once you tae their precious weapons away from them. Making them the laughing stock of the Abyss. Pity wizards seems to think they are equal to Pit Fiends.
runestar 12-11-06, 01:52 AM	Balors are pansies once you tae their precious weapons away from them. Making them the laughing stock of the Abyss. Pity wizards seems to think they are equal to Pit Fiends. I wouldn't use balors in melee, save as a last resort. I think they are much more effective if you have it summon a 2nd balor, then have both of them spam their SLAs together. Maybe that's how you took it down so quickly?:confused:
Roivas 12-11-06, 02:08 AM	We also made sure to have spell immunity to it's more pwerful abilities, like power word stun. We never actually did fight the balor, we lucked out and got to fight the dragon outside it's lair. It didn't last very long. The sunder attacks were just the start of the plan. The second balor would have been banished as soon as it was brought traipsing out.
runestar 12-11-06, 02:10 AM	Fair enough then - it seems you took the effort to protect yourselves against its more potent attacks, leaving it with little choice but to engage in melee.:)
Chrome_Golem 12-11-06, 10:20 AM	Balors are nothing to fear if you have a primary fighter with improved sunder. When I was planning a battle that required us to take down a balor in 1 minute at 16th level, then fight a grat Wyrm White dragon, we decided it would be best to have my paladin use smite evil on his sword to guarantee I would sunder his blade without even trying, then move on to his whip. From there once it was down to 2 attacks per round use my silver outsider bane holy longsword end him in less than 8 rounds as long as the rest of our 6 person party could manage to do 100 point of damage to it. Balors are pansies once you tae their precious weapons away from them. Making them the laughing stock of the Abyss. Pity wizards seems to think they are equal to Pit Fiends. Well, having a silver outsider bane (vs. evil outsiders I assume) holy longsword certainly helps. Keep in mind though that you need a weapon that is both cold iron and good to oversome it's damage reduction of 15, in which case this sword misses the first criteria. I also didn't think that you could use a smite evil on a sword or whip since these objects are not evil themselves but rather are being weilded by an evil creature. The Balor's text says that the weapons are treated as Chaotic and Evil aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, but I don't think that makes it's weapons implicitly evil in other regards. For example, there is nothing in the rules that says a Balor absolutley cannot use an axiomatic holy weapon (all it says is that it takes 2 negative level as long as it holds it), does this weapon than become a Lawful Chaotic Evil Good weapon? I would say no because that would be silly, but, for the purposes of overcoming DR it would be considered both Chaotic and Evil for that purpose only. As a DM I would argue that it is an ability of the Balor to use it's weapons to overcome Lawful and Good DR, and not something which alters the weapon itself. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
DungeonMaster 12-11-06, 10:57 AM	I wouldn't use balors in melee, save as a last resort. I think they are much more effective if you have it summon a 2nd balor, then have both of them spam their SLAs together. Yep, this thread amply discussed the balor and how the balor isn't a good mellee monster at these levels. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744269&page=2 It does less damage than a cloud giant 9 CRs below it...
Chrome_Golem 12-11-06, 11:22 AM	We also made sure to have spell immunity to it's more pwerful abilities, like power word stun. We never actually did fight the balor, we lucked out and got to fight the dragon outside it's lair. It didn't last very long. The sunder attacks were just the start of the plan. The second balor would have been banished as soon as it was brought traipsing out. Well the Balor does have Greater Dispel Magic (as a 20th level caster) which can specifically target the (Greater?) Spell Immunity spell itself and have a good chance of nerfing it. Banishment is still subject to spell resistance so it has a good chance of not working (assuming you're caster is 16th level you would need to roll a 12+ to overcome its SR of 28; Spell penetration will require a roll of 10+, or 8+ with the greater version), and even than it allows a will save, of which a Balor has a Will save of +19. It has a fly speed of 90 ft. to put a little distance between your party and it, to wait until your buffs fade away, or Greater Teleport away and than attack at a later more opportune time. Quickened Telekinesis can possibly disarm you before you even try and land an attack. It also has standard treasue for a 20CR creature, some of which I'm sure it could put to good use. I'm not saying your strategy is flawed, I'm just saying that if a Balor is played well it is not just a mindless beast swinging a Vorpal Blade and a Whip or droping firestorms from the heavens, it is intelligent and crafty and many of its spell-like abilities are amongst the most utilitarian in the game
Morrowner 12-11-06, 11:51 AM	Why the hell would a Balor just sit around waiting for his sword to be sundered? He's got a 24 Intelligence and the huge mobility edge and great SLAs. He'd be better of summoning up a Balor or Marilith and getting off a quickened spell than trying to hit someone with his Vorpal sword.
meta 12-11-06, 02:23 PM	Is it possible that it has only these 14 skills as class skills, no more? It might be important to avoid confusion as the MM states that any skills the balor has ranks in are class skills? No, it has 16 class skills. The baseline version just doesn't take any ranks in two of them (Disguise and Survival). But losing 23 skill points is quite tame, I think the flamebrother salamander lost much more...:( Agreed. There are many skill-related errors in the various books, but no biggy - programs can easily detect and fix the problems.
mvincent 12-11-06, 06:06 PM	best to have my paladin use smite evil on his sword to guarantee I would sunder his bladeDoes smite evil function on non-evil items held by evil creatures?
mvincent 12-11-06, 06:08 PM	It's a mistake. It should have been in the errata. No one knows why it isn't.It is correct in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)
Chrome_Golem 12-11-06, 08:19 PM	It is correct in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) The +1 Flaming whip damage is 1d4+6, though I believe it should be 1d6+7 (1/2 of +12 strength modifier, +1 for the weapons enhancement bonus).
tridiak 12-12-06, 02:02 AM	Balor's sword plus is too low. It should be at least +3 and made of some special material to help it smash Solars.
Chrome_Golem 12-12-06, 10:41 AM	Balor's sword plus is too low. It should be at least +3 and made of some special material to help it smash Solars. I guess they think that being Vorpal makes it powerful enough.
Morrowner 12-12-06, 11:27 AM	And I think they would be wrong. Vorpal is overrated by quite a bit.
Keterys 12-12-06, 02:21 PM	Well, in 3.0 it wasn't ;) But, yeah, it would be better off even just having a +5 keen instead of +1 vorpal. Go ahead and make it so, in your games. The one Balor in my game will be using a +3 Anarchic Unholy Keen Flaming Burst or something like that... but, I don't particularly like vorpal and there's reasons for me to want it to use the other.
Chrome_Golem 12-12-06, 02:48 PM	Well, in 3.0 it wasn't ;) But, yeah, it would be better off even just having a +5 keen instead of +1 vorpal. Go ahead and make it so, in your games. The one Balor in my game will be using a +3 Anarchic Unholy Keen Flaming Burst or something like that... but, I don't particularly like vorpal and there's reasons for me to want it to use the other. Very true, the Monster Manual isn't gospel. I think I would edit the Balor's encountered in my campaign as well. Vorpal is just too random.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-13-06, 04:58 PM	Though I still wonder how they justify the balor as CR 20. Blasphemy at will at caster level 20.
Karak_Nechot 12-13-06, 07:17 PM	Blasphemy at will at caster level 20. ...is still not enough to justify a CR 20. So, creatures within 40 ft. of it are dazed, and possibly weakened, provided, of course, they are within the appropriate CR range. At 20th level, most characters can, and often do, kill an opponent from hundreds of feet away, including noncasters. The only thing the blasphemy does is make melee a little more dangerous with the balor. A barbarian who rushes up and forces the balor to waste its action to daze the barbarian is just openning things up for the wizard or archer 300 ft. away to kill the balor next round. As written, I would say the 3.5 balor is about a CR 16 or 17, which is a step up from the CR 12 of the 3.0 balor, but still not enough. To be a heavy hitter at CR 20, the balor needs more defenses, like fast healing or better immunities. IT would be nice if its melee damage were more on par with the pit fiend. Vorpal is okay, but really not that great compared to consistant damage. Adding even flaming burst or something would help greatly. I'm fine with the spell-like abilities of the balor. I wouldn't mind an area fear or debuff affect, though, as it would be more appropriate. The Entangle ability is an utter mess for both 3.0 and 3.5. What sizes can be affected? Is the character grappled? Can he break free at any point? How can he? The ability is mute on all those. And the 3.5 death throes is about right for damage, but makes no sense in regards to the weapons. It says the balor's weapons are destroyed, and yet, standard treasue INCLUDES these same items. And let's not forget the ever so lovely Vorpal Sword (Sp) that shapechanging casters have been trying to abuse the hell out of. I wonder if Mearls will get to the balor in his Monster Makeover. He's good at identifying the problems of most monsters, even if his solutions sometimes fall very flat.
DungeonMaster 12-13-06, 08:35 PM	I actually agree with the first portion of your post. But this next section... As written, I would say the 3.5 balor is about a CR 16 or 17, which is a step up from the CR 12 of the 3.0 balor, but still not enough. The 3rd edition balor is much much tougher than CR12. But we've already discussed this to death in a previous thread, lets see some real action. Go create a party of 12th level PCs. Core 3rd edition rules, nothing optional (i.e plain races, classes, feats, spells, items, etc... no prestige classes). Standard array for ability scores: 15,14,13,12,10,8. Standard wealth, 88 000 GP. No single item worth more than 40 000 GP market price. I guarantee the balor will cream your entire party. To be a heavy hitter at CR 20, the balor needs more defenses, like fast healing or better immunities. IT would be nice if its melee damage were more on par with the pit fiend. Neither of these monsters are mellee monsters at this level. They're both rather terrible at mellee for CR 20. Compare to the tarrasque or any dragon of CR20. They would need energy drain immunity to start with because both the 3.5 balor and pit-fiend have nothing to defend themselves and their lairs. By 3.5 core rules with metamagic rods of maximize the monster gets hit by energy drain from the cleric, energy drain from the wizard and 1 chop of the fighter's life-driker and it's DEAD, and that's the surprise round. The Entangle ability is an utter mess for both 3.0 and 3.5. What sizes can be affected? Is the character grappled? Can he break free at any point? How can he? The ability is mute on all those. Read the net entry in the PHB. Just think of the whip as a net with a trailing rope. You are not grappled - you're entangled, it's even in the glossary at the back of the book.
Karak_Nechot 12-13-06, 10:18 PM	I actually agree with the first portion of your post. But this next section... The 3rd edition balor is much much tougher than CR12. But we've already discussed this to death in a previous thread, lets see some real action. Go create a party of 12th level PCs. Core 3rd edition rules, nothing optional (i.e plain races, feats, spells). Standard array for ability scores: 15,14,13,12,10,8. Standard wealth, 88 000 GP. No single item worth more than 40 000 GP market price. I guarantee the balor will cream your entire party. No, I really don't need to, and I can break down the argument that will happen thusly: I will point out the FACT that a 3.0 balor found in a kick-in-the-door scenario will be totally owned by a 12th level party, whether in 3.0 or 3.5. There is not going to be a contest about this, because, even if the balor wins initiative, the amount of damage he can do with his spells or even his summon will not wipe out the party in one round in 95% of scenarios, and the party, in turn, will just roll over the 3.0 balor's paltry 110 hp and weak defenses. You, then, will claim that no balor would ever be found in a kick-in-the-door encounter, and will have 100+ symbols set up, have made optimal environmental defenses (hideyholes, high overlooks, etc.) to make use of his spell-likes, and will somehow have mystical foresight to be able to predict perfectly when the PCs will arrive to time his buffs and summon exactly with it. In that case, yes, a 12th level party IS going to have a harder fight, and might not be successful. However, this a harder encounter than normal, meaning that the EL of the fight is increased simply because of the amount of preparation and enviroment the balor has produced. Maybe, if run totally optimally with environmental factors, you're talking about an EL 14. Just in the same way I can make a kobold an EL 2 if I give him all the time in the world and let him make all the traps and ambush points he wants. Does that mean that the kobold is under CRed? The actual truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Yes, it is likely that a balor will have a few symbols set up, and maybe a few buffs/debuffs up, but he won't have them all, and he cannot possibly have all the time in the world to prepare. I seriously doubt the balor will ever have his twin summoned until AFTER the fight starts in most situations. In short, I see the 3.0 balor, as written, and in a normal scenario, as being a 4 round encounter for a group of 12th level adventurers. That seems like a good solid CR 12 to me. There, that saves about 7 posts back and forth. Neither of these monsters are mellee monsters at this level. They're both rather terrible at mellee for CR 20. Compare to the tarrasque or any dragon of CR20. See, there's the problem. The tarrasque is a melee machine, with no casting effect. Yes, a balor should not do as much damage as that. A dragon, however, has a good mix of spells and melee, so it does make for a fair comparison. The balor is supposed to be a hybrid melee machine and caster. It's not supposed to be phenomenal at both, but it should not suck at either. As it stands, the balor sucks at melee. Just do a comparison of the balor to the pit fiend, a much more comparable creature. While the vorpal effect is potentially lethal (much more so in 3.0, a factor I am well aware of), it relies way too much on simple luck. Simply put, the odds of it going off are just not great enough to warrant the severely reduced damage as compared to a dragon of the same level, or, even better, the pit fiend (especially with that poison effect. Even though a good portion of characters are immune to poison in some way by that level, it's still freaking harsh.) They would need energy drain immunity to start with because both the 3.5 balor and pit-fiend have nothing to defend themselves and their lairs. By 3.5 core rules with metamagic rods of maximize the monster gets hit by energy drain from the cleric, energy drain from the wizard and 1 chop of the fighter's life-driker and it's DEAD, and that's the surprise round. Well, oddly enough, that would kill a pit fiend, but it would only just severely weaken a balor. For the resource expenditure, I think that's a fair fight. 2 9th level spells + 2 uses of 2 limited use items + 1 negative level sounds like a decent cost for winning in an ambush, along with overcoming SR and AC. I could go with giving a balor immunity energy drain. I don't see it as a huge boost, but it's something worth considering. Honestly, I would more like to increase the SR to something more like the pit fiend's. I'm also thinking about something to constantly increase its hp, like the effect of the pit fiend's regeneration. That's one of the major things I think is weakest for the balor, the hp damage it takes actually matters more than its saves versus save-or-die effects. Dragons are like that, too, and they have a huge amount of hp to make up for it. A CR 19-20 dragon usually has about 150-200 more hp than the balor. The balor needs something to make up for this weakness, like the pit fiend's regeneration. I would boost the damage done in melee, probably increase AC, or give an area debuff effect, and add in fast healing or something akin to it. Maybe a few Su abilities, like a fireburst effect. Also, I would clean up the wonky abilities that make no sense. Read the net entry in the PHB. Just think of the whip as a net with a trailing rope. You are not grappled - you're entangled, it's even in the glossary at the back of the book. I know it operates mostly like a net, but there are obvious problems. For instance, can the whip be escaped by a DC 20 Escape Artist check? Or a DC 25 Strength check to burst it? both of those seem way too easy at 20th level, or thereabouts. If you go by those rules, the whip entanglement is really, REALLY rather pathetic. That's why I question how you can escape. Even though a default can affect creatures within one size category of the wielder, doesn't it seem more likely that a whip that wraps around a creature could be more versatile? Does this mean that a lowly imp can ignore the whip entanglement altogether? That does not seem right.
runestar 12-13-06, 10:52 PM	The balor was never meant to engage in melee. Anyone using it for that purpose will naturally find themselves shortchanged somewhat..;)
Keterys 12-13-06, 11:28 PM	True, he was supposed to fall in a pit for miles while grappling a wizard.
mvincent 12-14-06, 12:04 AM	True, he was supposed to fall in a pit for miles while grappling a wizard.Oh snap
runestar 12-14-06, 12:15 AM	And the 3.5 death throes is about right for damage, but makes no sense in regards to the weapons. It says the balor's weapons are destroyed, and yet, standard treasue INCLUDES these same items. You can keep them, just that you must be willing to go the extra mile. Say your fighter disarms the balor of his vorpal longsword, then stows it away in a bag of holding...:)
DungeonMaster 12-14-06, 01:04 AM	I will point out the FACT that a 3.0 balor found in a kick-in-the-door scenario will be totally owned by a 12th level party, whether in 3.0 or 3.5. (...) In that case, yes, a 12th level party IS going to have a harder fight, and might not be successful. (..) Maybe, if run totally optimally with environmental factors, you're talking about an EL 14. I was suggesting kick down the door. It'll have 4 symbols up, tops, which is very reasonable. I will presume a similar level of use and not abuse of the rules by the PCs. A single wall of fire, its unholy aura and maybe 1 other spell. I won't even have it on unholy ground (which it can do) with something nasty tied to the effect. Trust me, I've done this encounter before, it's not EL 14. It's really very rough. In short, I see the 3.0 balor, as written, and in a normal scenario, as being a 4 round encounter for a group of 12th level adventurers. That seems like a good solid CR 12 to me. Well we can argue endlessly or you can prove your point by drawing up some plain quick 12th level characters. You seem so confidant that it's a cakewalk I don't know why you'de hesistate, should be easy to throw together a wizard+cleric+rogue+fighter. The wizard would be the hardest, what with spell selection. Pay for extra spells beyond what you get by level increase by buying scrolls, assume you learn the spell automatically. I'll even set the stage for you: Down underground, nothing ran straight. Your party has travelled for 10 days and 10 nights through the seemingly endless twisting passages of the mines of the great dwarven stronghold without seeing a soul. You find naught but death, clinging to the shafts of goblin crafted arrows. Deep you have gone now, with the fear of a fleeting shadow just at the edge of sight and hearing. Now you have found the heart of the maze, or so you beleive - and the 40 foot tall door of stone confirms your greatest fear. There, etched in the rock by a smouldering claw above the doorway is a symbol . Your rogue claims he was lucky to have detected it. Its speaks only of death and the eternal damnation that lies just beyond. The floor is level, the ceiling is some 60 feet high. The symbol you are convinced will trigger upon passing through the doorway. You have some 20 feet radius of level ground in and about the doorway, an uneven sharp slope leads up and outwards from this doorway to the rest of the mines. The balor is supposed to be a hybrid melee machine and caster. It's not supposed to be phenomenal at both, but it should not suck at either. As it stands, the balor sucks at melee. Here's where you and I disagree. It's not and never has been a hybrid melee machine and caster as say, a dragon is. It has the nice vorpal effect, which is generally quite rare but still frightening depending on the edition. They have always, since D&D's inception had at will spell like abilities. That's their advantage, that's as stated earlier why the damage bonus is low. The dragon is limited in his spells per day, it may be a very large number, but the balor can churn out magic like a DEMON . There's just no end to the magic. It isn't a wizard, it isn't a dragon, nor is it truly a physical monster. But when your protection vs. fire ebbs, your cloak of resistance rendered non-magical and that symbol and flame still lingers - you know demon fear ... I don't really agree with you about the hp. Hp aren't really a big issue at high levels unless the fighters are going to engage the monster directly. The balor's not supposed to do that, at least not until he's weedled down the fighter's defenses. DC 20 escape artist is indeed easy for a character with ranks. DC 25 strength check isn't so easy, particularly if the whip entangles a wizard or cleric. You don't use the whip against fully buffed fighters, that's courting disaster as they're going to full-attack you next. A wizard/cleric hit with targeted greater-dispel then entangled by the net is in a lot of trouble.
Karak_Nechot 12-14-06, 10:55 PM	I was suggesting kick down the door. It'll have 4 symbols up, tops, which is very reasonable. That's not kick-in-the-door. Kick-in-the-door is NO previous setup. Basically, the monster starts to exist the moment the PCs, you know, kick in the door. I will presume a similar level of use and not abuse of the rules by the PCs. A single wall of fire, its unholy aura and maybe 1 other spell. I won't even have it on unholy ground (which it can do) with something nasty tied to the effect. Trust me, I've done this encounter before, it's not EL 14. It's really very rough. Unholy ground would, BY DEFINITION raise the EL. Any previous set up is, technically, a raise in the difficulty of the encounter, it just depends on how much. A balor with all his best effects active at the perfect time to use against a party is, without a doubt, a tougher than normal encounter, enough to raise the EL. Even with all those effects, I'm pretty certain a ECL 14 party can easily and routinely take it out in 3.0, which, again, is my point. Again, it's just like the kobold ambush scenario. I know for a fact I can make a CR 1/6 kobold defeat a ECL 2 or even higher party. Does that mean the CR of the kobold should be 4+? No, it just means I gave it every advantage possibly, like you are doing with the balor, and what you are doing is raising the EL to the point that it comes close to the given CR, not really showing the true CR of the creature. Well we can argue endlessly or you can prove your point by drawing up some plain quick 12th level characters. You seem so confidant that it's a cakewalk I don't know why you'de hesistate, should be easy to throw together a wizard+cleric+rogue+fighter. The wizard would be the hardest, what with spell selection. Pay for extra spells beyond what you get by level increase by buying scrolls, assume you learn the spell automatically. Sheesh, just use the NPC stats for a cleric, wizard, BARBARIAN, and rogue. Fighters just fail after 6th level in most cases, so there is no point to include one. You can have a paladin or monk instead of the barbarian. The ranger and the fighter in 3.0 are pathetic. Both are nothing more than dip classes. Even in 3.5, fighters are STILL nothing more than dip classes, which irks me, but still better than the 3.0 fighter. I have more to do in my life than make up characters to post for an online argument that, frankly, I know I have already won. You run it yourself, and see just how close the 12th level party, which I am sure you will intentionally gimp, will come to defeating a supposed CR 18. I don't need to run it, because I know the results. I have seen it before. Here's where you and I disagree. It's not and never has been a hybrid melee machine and caster as say, a dragon is. Balor feats, 3.0: Ambidexterity, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting. All melee feats. Balor feats, 3.5: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword). 6 melee feats, 1 caster feat. The flavor text in both versions suggest that melee is their PREFERED method of attack, with spellcasting being their backup plan when things get rough. The tactics in 3.5 actually suggests melee in the second round. It's plain as day to me, and anyone else who reads the full entry on the balor, that the balor is meant to be both melee and caster. It has the nice vorpal effect, which is generally quite rare but still frightening depending on the edition. They have always, since D&D's inception had at will spell like abilities. That's their advantage, that's as stated earlier why the damage bonus is low. Except in no edition are they set up as only being caster-y. In fact, in both 1e and 2e, the balor damage from physical attacks was actually pretty decent. 2-13 and 3-18 (average, it can be up to 4-24) damage is very potent when most PCs can't top higher than 60 hp, and the max is usually around 100. Neither had vorpal weapons, and the whip attack is the best option, even better than most of their spell-like abilities. In all editions, they are clearly meant to be able to hold their own in melee as well as in magic. In 3e, old and new, they DON'T hold their own in melee, and yet still are very set up to be so via their feats. The dragon is limited in his spells per day, it may be a very large number, but the balor can churn out magic like a DEMON . There's just no end to the magic. The balor can turn out a number of effects in an unlimited fashion, but its best abilities are all 1/day effects (or 1/lifetime, in the death throes). Frankly, once those are done, the balor is forced to retreat or becomes an easy target. That hardly seems like a creature with no end to its magic. It isn't a wizard, it isn't a dragon, nor is it truly a physical monster. What, did you make your balors incorporeal? Yes, yes it is a physical monster. It's there. You can go up and whack it with a life-stealing axe, as you pointed out a few posts back. You're right that it is not a wizard. It does not have the spell versatility. But it does fall close to the dragon in terms of use, a hybrid caster and meleer. However, it tends to fail on the melee side, mostly in the respect of defense, but it's offense could use some tweaking as well. Now, how about we cut to the chase and look at the pit fiend for comparison. The diabolic counterpart to a balor is the pit fiend. The pit fiend has nearly as potent spell-likes, but also does about twice the damage per round in melee, not to mention more likely to hit with all attacks, and has much, much better defenses all around. It's no question that the balor is weak when you compare these two, either in 3.0 or 3.5. But when your protection vs. fire ebbs, your cloak of resistance rendered non-magical and that symbol and flame still lingers - you know demon fear ... It would be nice if the balor DID have some sort of fear effect, or, in the case of 3.0, a fear effect that is actually useful. Let's see, that's, what, about three rounds of actions for the balor? So, by then, it's either dead, or close to dead, and that's ALL you feel from the effects of facing a balor. There's no demon fear. Just laughing about a way too easy encounter. I don't really agree with you about the hp. Hp aren't really a big issue at high levels unless the fighters are going to engage the monster directly. The balor's not supposed to do that, at least not until he's weedled down the fighter's defenses. Again, you're wrong in that the balor is not supposed to melee. See above. And it's not directly hp, so much as the fact that you can easily kill a CR 20 creature by concentrating on hp. It needs something like the pit fiend has, some way to either negate or undo hp damage. Even a spellcaster with a couple direct damage spells can easily drop a balor. That's just not right. Not for a CR 20 creature. DC 20 escape artist is indeed easy for a character with ranks. DC 25 strength check isn't so easy, particularly if the whip entangles a wizard or cleric. You don't use the whip against fully buffed fighters, that's courting disaster as they're going to full-attack you next. A wizard/cleric hit with targeted greater-dispel then entangled by the net is in a lot of trouble. The problem is that entangling is just as worthless against a caster as it is against a meleer. You can still cast spells while entangled, just requires a pretty easy Concentration check (DC 24 max. I don't know many casters with less than 15 ranks alone at that level, and those are rare). It can potentially do more damage, but, on the flip side, it's a sort of damage that is commonly resisted or negated. Add in the fact that casters have the best escape options through spells, there really is no good choice for using the whip. At 20th level, I can easily see a character with a +10 Strength modifier just from his core abilities, not to mention any number of buffs the party has to offer. DC 25 Strength check is really not all that hard. The balor was never meant to engage in melee. Anyone using it for that purpose will naturally find themselves shortchanged somewhat.. Then explain the feats and the attempt at melee abilities. Not to mention the flavor text and tactics. It IS meant to be in melee. It just fails at it.
DungeonMaster 12-15-06, 02:30 AM	That's not kick-in-the-door. Kick-in-the-door is NO previous setup. Basically, the monster starts to exist the moment the PCs, you know, kick in the door. No, you're making that up. I don't know what you've played before but that definitely isn't ANY module or dungeon I've ever played. That's perhaps video-game inspired idiocy, where you can buff the hell out of your PCs just out of sight of the monsters and then charge in, but the rules were never balanced for such encounters. A monster using it's spell like abilities does not raise the EL. Nowhere in the rules does it state that - ever. PCs buff themselves, monsters buff themselves - any DM that plays it otherwise is by definition an idiot. All of the effects that are detailed on p.103 of the DMG are situational or environmental "conditions" as they term it. These have nothing to do with the monster using its abilities. Even with all those effects, I'm pretty certain a ECL 14 party can easily and routinely take it out in 3.0, which, again, is my point. Well you have to prove your point now, rather than endlessly argue about it. Go make the characters, level 14 is what you need now? It started at level 12, but I'm cool with level 14. By the book we should expect at least one character death. The lone kobold defeating an entire party requires much much more than the kobold simply using its abilities (or lack thereof). Giving the balor "every possible advantage" would be for instance putting the creature in a lightning storm, atop a sea of acid. That's something that raises the EL. By your reasoning the 3.5 MM is at fault for letting the "standard" balor encounter have it's unholy aura up. What you're saying really makes no sense, either in game or otherwise. I see you don't like fighters, no matter. I'm getting the distinct impression your views are highly tainted by internet message boards and don't really reflect the experience of playing the game. I have more to do in my life than make up characters to post for an online argument that, frankly, I know I have already won. We both know you can't substantiate your claims. Here's the online dice roller we can use for complete transparancy: http://www.nadaka.us/DiceBoxDB.asp?Page=Add I've started with rolling the balor's magic items under the name Karak_nechot. Seems like if you defeat him you get a +2 breastplate, a rod of withering, a scroll of slow+shadow conjuration and a wand of knock. As for the idea that feats determine the monster I'll have you note that the rakshasha has alertness and dodge while disdaining physical combat. It's really not that relevant at all. 1e and 2e damage on the balor was pathetic. Like unreal pathetic. Don't get me started on the 2e balor - it's best attack was still symbol but second best was suggesting people pick up its sword. Let's cut to the action. I could discuss why the pitfiend is weaker, but again, it's not really going to convince you. If you beat the balor then you can fight a pit-fiend. You'll see in practice what I mean.
Johnny_Angel 12-15-06, 02:57 AM	I'm by no means an expert D&D player, but I think I would have to side with the argument that the Pit Fiend is far more deadly than the Balor. I've experienced encounters with both as a player and as a dm putting them against players, and the Pit Fiend always seems to be tougher. Storyline-wise it does seem to make sense though. Demons are supposed to be more numerous, but Devils are supposed to be more efficient and tactical; that's what keeps the blood war going. When it comes to crunch and mechanics, I think the best way to settle the argument would be to run 3 trial battles. Battle 1: PC Party vs Balor Battle 2: PC Party vs Pit Fiend Battle 3: Balor vs Pit Fiend After you're done, compare the results and see what you think.
Keterys 12-15-06, 07:23 PM	For 'kick in the door' for the Balor - it's just been gated in to attack a party. Using its 3.0 'as many symbols as I could want for free' is basically all kinds of silly. either it's _really_ using it, in which case the players don't go there, or it's not using it at all. Either way, the symbols themselves are 'traps' and have a CR. A fairly low one, but it's worth noting. Just to totally toss out some random stuff for people who want to beef up the Balor: Bonus Feats: Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Greater Dispel Magic), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Telekinesis) Another Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Change: Weapon Focus (Longsword) to Weapon Focus (Falchion); consider changing Power Attack, Cleave to Expertise, Improved Trip SA/SQ changes: Retributive Strike (Ex): Immediate action, make a melee attack on an opponent who has hit you with a melee or ranged attack. Spell Reflection (Ex): Any targeted, touch, or ranged touch spell that fails to affect the Balor because of its spell resistance is reflected back on its caster. Flaming Body (Su) : Add 'On its turn as a free action, the Balor may cause flames to spread out from it in a 20-ft radius spread dealing 6d6 fire damage (Reflex DC 30 halves)' Vorpal Sword (Su): As a free action, the Balor may create a vorpal sword that appears as a flame or bolt of lightning. This weapon acts as a +1 unholy keen greater wounding falchion with either flaming burst or shocking burst, as appropriate, and no penalty for using it one-handed. This sword disappears if it leaves the Balor's hand. Flaming Whip (Su): As a free action, the Balor may create a flaming whip. This whip functions as a +1 unholy greater wounding fiery blast* spiked chain, with no penalty for using it one-handed, that it can Entangle with. This whip disappear if it leaves the Balor's hand. * As per the epic enhancement, +3d6 fire normally, +6d6 fire on crits. Remove any mention of destroying weapons from its death burst. It does have 2hd and 65 more hp than a pit fiend, and it dying is a 'desirable' function, so I didn't want to toss on much more defenses, but that should amp its output quite a bit.
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 01:49 AM	I've experienced encounters with both as a player and as a dm putting them against players, and the Pit Fiend always seems to be tougher. Out of curiosity was this in 3rd or 3.5? As for 3 trial battles, sure, I'm up for it. I just need a PC party to show up. :P The balor will win vs. a pitfiend pretty much hands down in 3rd edition . Greater dispel magic vs. plain dispel seals the pit-fiend's fate. The pitfiend is outclassed (CR 16 vs. 18) though it might get lucky.
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 01:54 AM	For 'kick in the door' for the Balor - it's just been gated in to attack a party. Using its 3.0 'as many symbols as I could want for free' is basically all kinds of silly. either it's _really_ using it, in which case the players don't go there, or it's not using it at all. I've seen 18th level PCs charge into more than just 4 symbols and come out on top. I think the count was 10. As for beefing up the balor, one of my favorite advanced balor feats is improved critical.
Keterys 12-16-06, 08:52 AM	I've seen 18th level PCs charge into more than just 4 symbols and come out on top. Why were there only 10, and not 100? Or heck, 1000? I mean, with that many you're practically guaranteed they'll fail a save against one of them. In my 3.0 18th level party, we were immune to mind effects and death by 18th, so I'm not sure we'd have particularly cared about any number of symbols. It doesn't change 'as many symbols as you want' into a playable mechanic. Like I said, Balors show up gated or, say, pursuing the party across a bridge, since those are the actual cliche encounters. It has no symbol-rific paradise around. Now compare the fight.
runestar 12-16-06, 08:55 AM	Why were there only 10, and not 100? Or heck, 1000? I mean, with that many you're practically guaranteed they'll fail a save against one of them. Ah, the fun and joys of abusing at-will SLAs...:cool:
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 11:49 AM	Why were there only 10, and not 100? Or heck, 1000? I mean, with that many you're practically guaranteed they'll fail a save against one of them. Because those are unreasonable numbers. As a DM I assume that some of the symbols are getting tripped off, dispelled or simply runing out of duration. Though a balor could do that, it's within it's power, and it wouldn't take prohibitively long to set up 100 symbols. Yes it's very powerful. Though high level parties are capable of dealing with this, as per the example of the party that took on the balor in my experience. Disjunction rids an area of all symbols, pyrotechnic smoke, walls of fire you name it. Even if you littered the area with hundreds of symbols I'm quite confident well played PCs will come out on top. It doesn't change 'as many symbols as you want' into a playable mechanic. Why not? They've had symbol since the 1st edition MM! I really don't think you can go 3 generations of gamers and be using an uplayable mechanic. Do you really think DMs have been staring at the MM entry for the past 30 years and not using symbol to even moderate effect? I guarantee you that 'as many symbols as you want' is a playable mechanic but you have to be damn powerful to come out on top. Like I said, Balors show up gated or, say, pursuing the party across a bridge, since those are the actual cliche encounters. It has no symbol-rific paradise around. Now compare the fight. Sure we can have it pursuing the party across a bridge spanning a huge pit - that would raise the EL though. I'll have you note that even in the LOTR movie the balor emerges from behind pyrotechnic smoke and a wall of fire (demon of shadow and flame and all that). And a balor in pursuit would do exactly that to hinder those that flee. However a PC party in flight isn't buffed with 1round/lvl or even 1min/level buffs either. Incidentally the 1st LOTR film did a fantastic job of depicting the balrog - better than I had ever imagined possible. I was so depressed with the way they did it in the 2nd film... A balor gated into the middle of an ongoing battle isn't a cliche encounter. The thing casting "gate" is also very much a worry at that point (I would think...). PCs in D&D routinely spend much more than a handful of standard actions buffing themselves every day. They typically eat hero's feasts for an hour, then cast multiple long duration spells on themselves, some with 10 minute casting times. I'm sort of shocked that people on the monster related section of the message boards would complain about the monster having a degree of preperation. Are you serious Keterys that you would have a problem with the encounter as I've layed it out - with a single wall of fire, unholy aura, some pyrotechnic smoke and 4 active symbols?
Keterys 12-16-06, 02:11 PM	I really don't think you can go 3 generations of gamers and be using an uplayable mechanic. Hahaha. Oh man, that's funny. I think we've had this argument before. Hahahaha. Yeah, just gets me. You know, I was playing one of the old gold box games the other day... and man did it remind me how bad the rules around spellcasting were... the evolution of things like 'sleep' and 'color spray' and 'stinking cloud' has been interesting. Once again, I think we're defining playable differently. Chromatic Orb as a 1st level spell? I guess that's 'playable' in the same sense that a Flesh to Stone spell that automatically Slowed at 1st level would be in 3e. Yeah. Yet lots of people used it, for years. Of course, some of those same people got disgusted with the game (for one reason or another) and switched to other games, or house ruled the game into the ground. Because those are unreasonable numbers. Why? It can have crazy numbers of symbols of insanity and death, since those have hit point caps instead of durations. For the others, it's purely a matter of how often it gets attacked, don't see why it couldn't have a few per room at a minimum. How often do you think things are breaking into its lair every day? Even if it gets attacked every day such that it burns through the rest, symbols of fear and persuasion take a single action to put up for around 3 hours, so if it takes 1 minute an hour, it's still looking at a good 18 more of those. If it's not being attacked constantly, it will have up nigh infinite permanent symbols, and if it's being attacked constantly it will have up ridiculous numbers of non-carefully inscribed ones (even more than the 18 - after all, living is an important thing) I can't compare to 1e symbol, since that book has been long since packed away... did the Balor have it at will, with a permanent-ish duration? Just because DMs and players can avoid breaking the game too much with a mechanic because they like to keep playing doesn't make the mechanic magically better. Symbol at will is broken and unplayable drawn to a logical conclusion. Are you serious Keterys that you would have a problem with the encounter as I've layed it out - with a single wall of fire, unholy aura, some pyrotechnic smoke and 4 active symbols? Both wall of fire and unholy aura are 1 round/level buffs - it would only have them up if it was prewarned of their arrival. I'm not objecting to 4 active symbols specifically any more than I'd object to 50. I think it's one of the stupidest things I've ever seen on a monster (both the spell at will and being able to do the thousands of gold version for free) and should be house ruled out of existence as written. Further, if you're trying to evaluate the monster, assuming it has all these things up isn't exactly logical, because it's not necessarily fighting in a lair. If it's on the offensive, called in, etc then it doesn't have them. So, deal with the argument from that perspective. A kobold who sets up traps is no longer the same CR. So, have the party come in with no round/level or minute/level buffs and the balor come in with the same, and see where it takes you. I have some doubts about CR 12, but I know it's not the CR as written :)
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 04:07 PM	You know, I was playing one of the old gold box games the other day... and man did it remind me how bad the rules around spellcasting were... the evolution of things like 'sleep' and 'color spray' and 'stinking cloud' has been interesting. I'm unsure how what you're saying is relevant? All of the spells you mentioned changed quickly between the editions. Balors didn't really, with only very slight variations they've had symbol at will for 30+ years and went from 8+8 to 13 to 13+52 in 3rd edition, all with pyrotechnics, symbols at will (all permanent-ish as you say). I think it's fair to say if it lasts 30 years with very little variation then it's probably "ok". If you're claiming it's a mistake perpetuated throughout all these editions clearly three generations and 3 editions didn't. Even if it gets attacked every day such that it burns through the rest, symbols of fear and persuasion take a single action to put up for around 3 hours, so if it takes 1 minute an hour, it's still looking at a good 18 more of those. Sure that sounds reasonable. If it's not being attacked constantly, it will have up nigh infinite permanent symbols, and if it's being attacked constantly it will have up ridiculous numbers of non-carefully inscribed ones (even more than the 18 - after all, living is an important thing) Sure it can. But of course the D&D argument for having all these hyper-powerful monsters not tearing the fabric of reality to peices every day is that they're involved in "the blood war". So the assumption is that yes the balor is routinely attacked and/or occupied sowing chaos, destruction and all things horrible. A glyph covered lair is far from the first or worst logical conondrum when compared to the might of outsiders in general. Both wall of fire and unholy aura are 1 round/level buffs - it would only have them up if it was prewarned of their arrival. What if it just plain enjoys burning things and is constantly under threat of creatures that teleport (at will in some cases)? I would be a paranoid psycho too. As you said, life is important. Further, if you're trying to evaluate the monster, assuming it has all these things up isn't exactly logical, because it's not necessarily fighting in a lair. If it's on the offensive, called in, etc then it doesn't have them. So, deal with the argument from that perspective. A kobold who sets up traps is no longer the same CR. It doesn't need to be in its lair. It could be down a random hallway and have 4 symbols up in 24 seconds. A wall of fire and a pyrotechnic burst in 36 seconds. That's less prep-time than the average 11th level adventurer goes through. The idea of just throwing monsters with -at will- spell like abilities naked into battle is completely ridiculous. They aren't "traps" they're spells. If you really wanted it could scribe symbols on it's body, or on its sword, or whip for all it cares. Does it qualify as a "buff" for you then? So, have the party come in with no round/level or minute/level buffs and the balor come in with the same, and see where it takes you. I have some doubts about CR 12, but I know it's not the CR as written :) Sure. Let's see the party. 10 to 1 odds they have oodles of hour-long magic active. Then you claim "permanent" or hour-long magic is unfair for the demon. Bizarre. :confused:
Keterys 12-16-06, 04:54 PM	is that they're involved in "the blood war" Right, which isn't in its lair :) It could be down a random hallway and have 4 symbols up in 24 seconds. And what is the party doing in those 4 rounds, I wonder? That is my point. I think it's fair to say if it lasts 30 years with very little variation then it's probably "ok". I think it's fair to say we can agree to disagree on any mention you make to a monster being fine because it's been fine in previous editions. I would be a paranoid psycho too. As you said, life is important. Correct, but these are standard actions which last only a couple minutes, which means it might do them once it is waiting at a location, but not while it is on the move. Having some degree of them up at any particular moment might be fine, but having it assumed to have them up without forewarning of an approaching enemy is illogical. Even more illogical than not having 100 symbols :) The idea of just throwing monsters with -at will- spell like abilities naked into battle is completely ridiculous. It isn't when those abilities aren't useful without preparation. Any buff it has that lasts any actual time should be up at all times. Which is... unholy aura is the ability that most makes sense for it to have up randomly, and even that would eat up more than 5% of its life to have up at all points. Walls of Fire and Pyrotechnics at random are just silly. 10 to 1 odds they have oodles of hour-long magic active. That is the definition of the 3.0 party, yes. Now compare their stats to the Balor's... looks like they're still quite a bit lower. Almost like buffs and equipment are the way PCs catch up to monster stats. But, it's not like either is in a different position - they both have up all their long term buffs. Hell, I'm not sure it would change the position of the other poster much to remove the hour/level buffs in general, though. Compare the Balor to actual creatures. Unless it uses the broken symbol trick, the 3.0 Balor's a chump, and balancing based around the broken symbol trick (ie, having them pre-existing in the fight) isn't logical so... where's that leave you? Yelling from a platform that it must be balanced because it was balanced in previous editions? Yeah. Like I said, Gate a Balor in, have the Balor teleporting in to an area and both sides going 'whoa, where'd that come from', etc. That's the test the other poster was looking for. It's not "don't use his abilities", it's "use them within logical constraints". The PCs could be ambushing the Balor in his lair with a teleport and die tactics and leading disjunction, but that's as meaningless for the comparison as a Balor in his lair with PCs wandering through walls of fire and symbols before engaging him. The 'symbol' situation is roughly like saying a 3.5 Balor should have a Tarrasque dominated before the fight and included in its CR. I mean, why not, it's at will :)
Morrowner 12-16-06, 06:18 PM	It only has one ability that isn't a Boom! combat ability, Unholy Aura. And enough with this symbols baloney. 3.0 has been obsoleted unless otherwise explicitly stated or no new version is created. And guess what? The symbols wielding <150 HP CR 12 Balor is no more, a new version has been created. The symbols stuff is irrelevant. The kick-down-the-door/Big Nasty getting gated in fight is exactly what the Balor is suited for. It fights like a mastermind but it doesn't necessarily plan like one. The Dominate Monster SLA could be saucy but there is no way in good faith I could let a Balor have a small coterie of charmed bad guys and keep it still CR 20 in good conscience. YMMV. Also, if there was money riding on a Pit Fiend/Balor battle, put me down for 50 on the Balor. The Vorpal would have to hit and get confirmed for the Balors to triumph but the other Balor should be able to help with that.
runestar 12-16-06, 10:32 PM	Outsiders have no need to sleep. I see no mechanical reason why a balor cannot be keeping its personal buffs up 24/7, regardless of how short their durations are. After all, those SLAs have no verbal/somatic/material components, it can easily do this in the midst of another activity. I would probably ensure that the balor is at least protected with unholy aura when the party does encounter it.:) This is even supported in fiendish codex, which stipulates that a marilith is expected to maintain magic weapon on its non-magical longswords at all time.
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 10:55 PM	And what is the party doing in those 4 rounds, I wonder? That is my point. What 4 rounds? What lair? It could be any hallway, any stretch of the abyss, hades or hell. Anywhere. It doesn't need to be the creature's "lair". It could be right outside your PC's castle. It's that powerful and easy - and you know it since you're complaining so much about it. I think it's fair to say we can agree to disagree on any mention you make to a monster being fine because it's been fine in previous editions. We're going to have to disagree it seems. I do actually value the opinion of 30+ years of gaming experiences through 3 editions much moreso than you do. Having some degree of them up at any particular moment might be fine, but having it assumed to have them up without forewarning of an approaching enemy is illogical. (...) Walls of Fire and Pyrotechnics at random are just silly. I think we're going to have to disagree on what a demon does . It will casually lay down walls of fire, pyrotechnic smoke and symbols wherever and whenever it wants. It's an agent of the blackest evil and chaos. It would always have its guard up. Compare the Balor to actual creatures. Unless it uses the broken symbol trick, the 3.0 Balor's a chump, and balancing based around the broken symbol trick (ie, having them pre-existing in the fight) isn't logical so... where's that leave you? Yelling from a platform that it must be balanced because it was balanced in previous editions? Explain to me how, again, one last time, that using a spell like ability, is a "broken trick"? These things last for hours or are permanent, having a few "pre-existing" before a fight is not a stretch of the imagination. It's not a "trick". Anymore than spellcasting is a broken "trick" of the PC wizard. Like I said, Gate a Balor in, have the Balor teleporting in to an area and both sides going 'whoa, where'd that come from', etc. That's the test the other poster was looking for. Sure. We can run this very particular, highly unlikely, mostly illogical situationif you like. Do you want to make the PC party? It's not "don't use his abilities", it's "use them within logical constraints". We must have different logic. Your "logical constraints" involve a greater demon popping into existence going "whoa, where did that come from! a high level PC party!" and that basically never happens in the games I run. The PCs could be ambushing the Balor in his lair with a teleport and die tactics No it isn't meaningless - that's how you go about killing a 3.5 balor. The 'symbol' situation is roughly like saying a 3.5 Balor should have a Tarrasque dominated before the fight and included in its CR. I mean, why not, it's at will The 3.5 balor had better have something with it to give the PCs a challenge after it dies in the surprise round. I honestly do think a monster with dominate monster at will should have something with it. If he can find the Tarrasque so be it. Dominate monster is broken by 1st level protection from evil, magic circle vs. evil, dispel magic, disjunction. Mr. balor had better choose servants appropriately. ;)
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 11:12 PM	The kick-down-the-door/Big Nasty getting gated in fight is exactly what the Balor is suited for. It fights like a mastermind but it doesn't necessarily plan like one. Uh... you didn't read the first part of this thread did you? The 3.5 balor has no real defenses, it is neither a good spellcaster or a good mellee monster. It dies really very very quickly in high level play. "Gate" - balor arrives. Party: Cleric: maximized energy drain. Wizard: maximized energy drain + quickened enervation. Fighter: life-drinker - one hit, let's just say one when it could be many many more. Rogue: use-magic device scroll of energy drain. Balor: "What the @$%*!!!" *death*. If the stars align correctly then he might survive the round. Maybe. What can balor do to avoid this? Niet. If they scry on him what can he do? Niet. The 3.5 balor isn't any bit better off than his 3rd edition superior when it comes to just popping it in without an ounce of preparation. Core 3.5 metamagic rods of maximize and quicken completely doom him.
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 11:25 PM	Outsiders have no need to sleep. I see no mechanical reason why a balor cannot be keeping its personal buffs up 24/7, regardless of how short their durations are. After all, those SLAs have no verbal/somatic/material components, it can easily do this in the midst of another activity. I would probably ensure that the balor is at least protected with unholy aura when the party does encounter it.:) Agreed 100%. Thanks Runestar. You get my nod of approval as a DM. :tiphat:
Keterys 12-16-06, 11:26 PM	stipulates that a marilith is expected to maintain magic weapon I'll note that magic weapon lasts 10 times as long as unholy aura... and that's the one ability I said it would probably try to maintain. I could respond point by point on dungeonmaster's arguments, but I think it was said already. 3.5 changed the Balor. There's no need to think about 3.0 anymore, nor previous editions. So the only question becomes whether it's tough enough now. I don't think the '3 people take actions to do highly metamagic-ed 8th and 9th level spells with rods and a weapon that isn't necessarily all that common to maybe take it out in one round (if they make all the SR checks, etc)' is a good justification for it being a piece of cake.
DungeonMaster 12-16-06, 11:51 PM	So the only question becomes whether it's tough enough now. No. It needs pyrotechnics and symbol. From all those editions earlier, y'know? :P The ones where people claimed that it was so powerful as to be "broken"? Pyrotechnics to cover its arse in smoke so it can't be easily targeted. Symbol to protect itself against straightforward intrusion and the low-level scry+teleport as well as having a multi-target ability. Energy drain in some form or another is rather common at high levels. There are plenty of other easy ways to kill it in 3.5. Dimension lock/anchor + forcecage then riddle it with arrows or similar from a distance. Ready a dimension lock/anchor if it dispels dimension lock/anchor. It can't do anything. It needs smoke. Short range single-target spells don't cut it. Rapiers of puncturing, weapons of wounding, etc... there are a huge number of ways to shred any monster that just stands there . It has no tangible defenses without smoke and symbols (and wall of fire, I like walls of fire :) ).
Keterys 12-16-06, 11:51 PM	Actually, one quick point - it really shouldn't do lots of walls of fire and pyrotechnics everywhere, cause it would limit its own ability to see. Even with true seeing it can't see through them. So, yeah, just the unholy aura (eating up over 5% of its life, as I said - which is notable) makes any sense for it to have up. I wonder why they took away wall of fire in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, though. 1/day firestorm just isn't the same. If you really want to give it some 'fire' muscle, swapping in greater fireburst as a spell, with a quicken spell-like ability... now there's some real fire damage. Doesn't help them against Pit Fiends, of course.
Keterys 12-16-06, 11:56 PM	It could have pyrotechnics and wall of fire back, and it wouldn't really change much of anything. I suspect you've been mis-playing those spells as not hindering it from your description... and either way, I still say it wouldn't have those up, all the time, no matter how boring its life is that it spends every moment concentrating on creating them (hell, it would actually fatigue itself to do it every round if it did so for more than 8 hours a day and also tried to move, though it's more likely to just teleport around than walk, which really takes away the whole 'fire and smoke everywhere' aspect when it goes to new places and isn't on defense. It doesn't need symbol at will. It never did need it and it never should have had it, any more than we should be giving out wall of iron at will to 2nd level experts. Way to hammer a nail with an elephant :) Now... if it should be wreathed in smoke, it should just be wreathed in smoke. Check out a Nightmare. Give it that ability. Poof. Way better flavor and logic, and no worries about when it has it up.
DungeonMaster 12-17-06, 12:23 AM	Actually, one quick point - it really shouldn't do lots of walls of fire and pyrotechnics everywhere, cause it would limit its own ability to see. The 3rd edition balor is continually detecting magic. And its sword detects good. Very high listen skill. It will pinpoint your character even in the thickest smoke, straight through its wall of fire. :) You don't want an ability that can be seen through by true-seeing since the PCs will have that active all the time guaranteed at high levels. Trust me, very very nasty monster. Skip designed it fantastically. Great monster. You should use them someday, they make for a great encounter. A shame no PCs have materialised to take it on, I could show you. I wonder why they took away wall of fire in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, though. 1/day firestorm just isn't the same. 3rd edition balor has wall of fire at will and firestorm 1/day. :) As for using up time, it's immortal, doesn't sleep and can take a move action while performing any spell like abilities. This is about as much a hindrance as checking your watch or email. Since no PCs are forthcoming I guess I could run a balor vs. pitfiend encounter. I usually don't do monster vs. monster but there seems to be some interest. What edition do people want? It's no contest in 3rd so I guess 3.5...
Keterys 12-17-06, 09:36 AM	You should use them someday I did. Wasn't even a speed bump. I used to give them masses of buffs, armor, all kinds of allies, and still watch them get rolled over. Amazing how little any of those abilities matter when you're immune to death, fire and mind effects and have blindsight up. My 3.0 18th level sorcerer could have solo-ed Balors in melee, trivially. It would have a 5% chance to affect me with implosion (and I was much more likely to act before it and protect against it), and I'd have had to heal around 25 hp per Balor killed from their death burst. Every other ability, completely immune. The 3.0 Balor is an epitome example of how they just didn't really understand how to convert high CR monsters due to lack of experience. The 3.5 one is vastly improved. Heck, the 3.0 one can't even successfully defensively cast much of the time. There's a gross misunderstanding of the amount of effort required to use spell-like abilities. They require a standard action and concentration, provoking attacks of opportunity. That puts them on par with typing out emails. That's not something you can do while walking around without bad effect. In fact, it slows you to at least half movement effectively (and people don't normally take two actions every round of every day, that's why you get penalties for forced marchs and can't 'run' all the time). Standard actions are greater than half of your available time, in this case spent scrunching up your forehead and 'using the Force' to generate an effect. It's not a 'I'm strolling along and poof, fires showing up around me' - as I said, even unholy aura is eating up more than 5% of his life, and that's a minimal expenditure. If a 3.0 Balor is putting up 4 symbols, wall of fire, pyrotechnics, and maintaining unholy aura, everywhere he goes, he's using up half of his life purely maintaining those. Doesn't he, y'know, do actual things? Talk to people, order minions, go places, engage in the blood war, etc. What's he doing in a corridor in the first place? Do you roll to check how much of the duration is expended on its unholy aura, wall of fire, etc at the start of combat? Or does he redo those every few rounds, just to make sure they're not out of duration? If he's in there cause he thinks some PCs might come and attack him, why aren't the PCs reacting to him taking 7 rounds to buff? If he can hear them, they can probably hear him... Now, a 3.0 Balor forewarned (for example, by hearing them approach, having minions who tell him stuff, etc) could summon up an ally, toss abilities all around, set up traps, etc. That's completely different from a Balor who teleports in to investigate a disturbance or attack (just unholy aura), is pursuing fleeing PCs (just unholy aura), is gated in to help a fight (maybe unholy aura), etc. Even if it takes as much effort as it takes to check your watch (and it's considerably more, I can do that while moving), checking your watch every 10 seconds for 4 seconds, just standing there... you can't see how that would be disruptive and annoying? Heck, it would even be predictable to maintain it. Are we talking about well ordered Balors who walk around with egg timers so they know how long stuff lasts? ;) 3.5 Balor, much better. It's far more likely to get a chance to act (initiative, better senses), has 7 more hd (which means the 3.0 Balor was _much_ easier to take down), it has almost triple the hit points, 5 more AC, 6 more touch AC (which means that sorcerer has a real chance of missing), DR that actually does something, etc. Its spell DCs are 5 higher and it's gained a quickened spell-like ability. In addition to other powerups in strength, saves, etc. It's a _huge_ power jump over the 3.0 Balor, and people are saying it's too weak. If it requires use of two greater maximize rods, a quicken rod, 2 9th level spells, a 4th level spell, and a fighter getting into melee and hitting with a rare weapon that gives him negative levels if not protected? Then yeah, that's using up a chunk of resources. The greater maximize rods are 121.5k each; I've never actually seen one in any game, myself. (lesser versions, sure) Quicken Rod I've seen, but note it's also 75.5k - these are really adding up. So, the Balor's base touch is 16, +4 from Unholy Aura. Call it -2 for cover, melee, etc since no one has precise shot, but they may be able to avoid the penalties. Cleric is +16 or so (+15 bab, +1 dex) so missing 25% of the time. Wizard is +16 or so (+10 bab, +6 dex), so same percentage. Obviously they might have all kinds of buffs to bring that up, but that depends on how front-line the cleric is. Even if it's reduced to a 5% chance to miss, they both have to deal with the SR 28, which is +20 base... +2 from other sources, so 25% chance of failure on that. The cleric might be able to do assay resistance, but your wizard was using an action. So the Balor teleports away and goes 'Guess, I'll hunt them down later once I read a Death Ward scroll.' and, since they were a credible threat, pulls in another Balor to help... since he doesn't care if the other Balor dies, he lets them get hit by its death burst, so the wizard (say 20d4+140 hp, or 190) has a 50% chance to be below half hp ignoring everything else. Yeah, I really do think that death throes is part of the reason the Balor gets its CR. Which is an odd way to think about it.
Morrowner 12-17-06, 10:03 AM	Uh... you didn't read the first part of this thread did you? The 3.5 balor has no real defenses, it is neither a good spellcaster or a good mellee monster. It dies really very very quickly in high level play. "Gate" - balor arrives. Party: Cleric: maximized energy drain. Wizard: maximized energy drain + quickened enervation. Fighter: life-drinker - one hit, let's just say one when it could be many many more. Rogue: use-magic device scroll of energy drain. Balor: "What the @$%*!!!" *death*. If the stars align correctly then he might survive the round. Maybe. What can balor do to avoid this? Niet. If they scry on him what can he do? Niet. The 3.5 balor isn't any bit better off than his 3rd edition superior when it comes to just popping it in without an ounce of preparation. Core 3.5 metamagic rods of maximize and quicken completely doom him. First off, drop the tone. Make your points without spouting off like God's condescending gift to 3.0 I noticed this in the Yugoloth thread and I didn't care for it then, either. It does have good defenses, far superior to the 3.0 Balor in every way. Better saves, more dice, better stats, better SR, etc. Your scenario requires about 300,000 GP and a unique weapon to deal with. Also, 4 20 level characters should be able to kill a Balor but they should have to spend significant amounts of money to do so. 300,000 GP is significant. Hitting the Balor and going through SR isn't automatic, either.
DungeonMaster 12-17-06, 12:26 PM	I did. Wasn't even a speed bump. I used to give them masses of buffs, armor, all kinds of allies, and still watch them get rolled over. Well it's pretty obvious you didn't know how to run them so I'm not surprised. My 3.0 18th level sorcerer could have solo-ed Balors in melee, trivially Every other ability, completely immune. :rofl: My turn to laugh, sorry. The balor I take it didn't use either greater dispel magic or blasphemy or similar right? No surprise then. Can you post your sorceror's character sheet? You should have it on hand? The 3.0 Balor is an epitome example of how they just didn't really understand how to convert high CR monsters due to lack of experience. The 3.5 one is vastly improved. The 3rd edition Balor is a prime example of very good monster design. The 3.5 balor is the exact opposite, it is neither a good spellcaster or a good mellee monster. We've discussed this at length before - I have no idea how you can think the way you do when presented with the obvious conclusions that it is not a threat to high level parties even marginally prepared for it. It's not a 'I'm strolling along and poof, fires showing up around me' - as I said, even unholy aura is eating up more than 5% of his life, and that's a minimal expenditure. Yes it is "I'm strolling along and poof, fires show up around me". Walking at a normal pace + standard action is perfectly reasonable for strolling along. The average human spends 15+% of his life sleeping. I'm sure he can still be a very productive demon while keeping his butt covered. Listen to your fiendish codex - it's 3.5 but 100% correct. The rest of your arguments don't hold water either. The balor is "doing stuff" by sowing chaos and destruction. That involves walls of fire, pyrotechnics and certainly not creeping around naked like you would like him to do. If he's going to be investigating a potentially dangerous area he sends his minions first , either summoned or charmed. He would be a mental midget to check it out himself by random teleport. This isn't just 3rd edition - this is any edition, any army, any sort of military, any game of chess. You don't go scouting with your general or your king. Take the example of the lord of the rings - the balor doesn't show up before his orcs or his troll. The balor doesn't need an "egg timer" - this is getting ridiculous fast - the wall of fire drops, he puts up a new one. The cloying darkness of an unholy aura drops, he puts up a new one. Do you need to be reminded to put on clothes? Do you take your shoes off and on? Do you remember when you walk outside naked on bare feet? Same thing. 3.5 Balor, much better. It's far more likely to get a chance to act (initiative, better senses), has 7 more hd (which means the 3.0 Balor was _much_ easier to take down), it has almost triple the hit points, 5 more AC, 6 more touch AC (which means that sorcerer has a real chance of missing), DR that actually does something, etc. Its spell DCs are 5 higher and it's gained a quickened spell-like ability. In addition to other powerups in strength, saves, etc. It's a _huge_ power jump over the 3.0 Balor, and people are saying it's too weak. That's because it IS too weak. It has lost its most important spell like abilities! It's GARBAGE. It doesn't compare to a Tarrasque, doesn't compare to a dragon (40+attack bonus without spells ) or even the formian queen (magic and spell like abilities). It can't keep up in damage with a cloud giant 9 CR below it! That's like a fire giant being upshoted by a grimlock?!? It is neither spellcaster nor mellee monster. It's a bard really, and not a well designed one. Furthermore you get a monster that is almost statistically identical if you advance a 3rd edition balor to CR 20 - that's how they derived the stats for the thing. Except the 3rd edition balor is a much much better DEMON. As for your analysis of the balor vs. party combat it's horribly flawed. Both wizard and cleric will miss 5% of the time the touch attack - there are so many ways to increase attack bonuses let's not bother - and the SR is useless in 3.5 with all the ways to increase it from orange ioun stones to core feats that add +4 to beads of karma to prestige classes. It's dead meat, it has to cling to the hope that something exceptional will happen like the PCs rolling low. The death throes would be a threat if the balor could cause damage. It both dies too quickly and has no really damaging abilities beyond 1/day firestorm. The price of the items is largely irrelevant to high level parties, especially if they craft them which is more often than not the case. Even if they don't it's easily subsumed and eminently useful against more dangerous threats that the 3.5 balor. The rods likewise aren't used up, the PCs can likely kill 3 balors a day with just that equipment and laugh all their way to the XP and treasure bank.
DungeonMaster 12-17-06, 12:50 PM	First off, drop the tone. Make your points without spouting off like God's condescending gift to 3.0 I noticed this in the Yugoloth thread and I didn't care for it then, either. Quoted for emphasis: "And enough with this symbols baloney. 3.0 has been obsoleted unless otherwise explicitly stated or no new version is created. And guess what? The symbols wielding <150 HP CR 12 Balor is no more, a new version has been created." You ask me to drop the tone? When your very first post rambles like God's condescending gift to 3.5? How exactly do you expect me to react? I'm a perfectly reasonable person but opening discussion as a flame warrior gets little of my respect. Hitting the balor with a touch attack is basically automatic. Here is a short list of ways to increase attack rolls: Shapechange, polymorph any object, moment of prescience, true-strike, green ioun stones, enhancement magic items and spells, divine favor. Many of these can be either always active, quickened or used with a moment's thought. Very simple tactics like plain old invisibility beyond true-seeing range makes the balor lose a huge chunk of AC (though not viable for energy drain it's perfectly good for archers). Spell resistance in 3.5 core rules is worthless. Greater spell penetration is core rules, as is the orange ioun stone. That's +5 caster level "all the time". A bead of karma makes it +9. A determined group of 17th level PCs can rip the balor's spell resistance to shreds, and your average group of 17th level PCs have little to fear if they have these rather common feats and items. It doesn't need ac, saves, and other nonsense. It needs pyrotechnic smoke and symbols. That's the wisdom of previous generations speaking to the generation of "MORE AC! MORE HIT POINTS!". Those things are only marginally relevant compared to avoid single-targeted magic and surprise at high levels.
Keterys 12-17-06, 07:44 PM	The balor I take it didn't use either greater dispel magic or blasphemy or similar right? Perhaps you didn't read my statement, so I'll dictionary.com 'immune' for you. The relevant sections: 3. exempt or protected: example - immune from punishment. 4. not responsive or susceptible: example - immune to new ideas. That's a very curious example to step 4, dungeonmaster, given your arguments in this or other threads, btw. If anyone shows any interest in rational debate on this topic, I'm available. dungeonmaster, that even includes you, should you chance to meet that prerequisite by some miracle.
DungeonMaster 12-17-06, 07:59 PM	Rational discussion involves a give and take of information, otherwise there's no basis for discussion. When I say "Can you post your sorceror's character sheet?" This typically isn't followed by "my character was immune." That's rather irrational and a much better example of "unresponsive" than what I've provided. The bare minimum would involve you detailing how you're character was "completely immune", at the very least, to greater dispel magic and blasphemy. I'm sorry if you don't like what I have to say Keterys, it would be a boring world if we all agreed.
Karak_Nechot 12-17-06, 11:45 PM	Here's what I came up with for a new version of the balor. BALOR CR 20 CE Large outsider (chaotic, extraplanar, evil, tanar’ri) Init +11; Senses darkvision 60 ft., true seeing; Listen +38, Spot +38 Aura demonic aura, flaming body, frightful presence Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic; telepathy 100 ft. AC 35, touch 16, flat-footed 28 hp 290 (20 HD); fast healing 15 DR 15/cold iron and good Immune electricity, fire, poison Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 28 Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19 Speed 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good) Melee+1 vorpal unholy flaming burst bane demonic sword * +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d8+13 +1d6 fire /17–20 x3 +1d10 fire) and +1 flaming bane demonic whip* +30 melee (1d4+7 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or Melee 2 slams +31 (1d10+12) Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (20 ft. with +1 flaming bane demonic whip*) Base Atk +20; Grp +36 Atk Options entangle, Cleave, Power Attack Special Actions demonic weapons, summon tanar’ri, flare, blast, unholy heat Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th): At will—blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus creature entangled or 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). *Bane creature type is chosen when weapons are created and may be changed, see demonic weapons Abilities Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26 SQ death throes Feats Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (demonic sword), Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater dispel magic), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (demonic sword) Skills Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any three) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30, Spot +38, Use Magic Device +31 Balors have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks Possessions demonic weapons True Seeing (Su): Balors have a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell (caster level 20th). Demonic Aura (Su): All non-demon creatures within 30 ft. of the balor suffer –2 penalty to all attack rolls, saves, caster level checks, and skill checks. Good creatures, or creatures of the baatezu subtype suffer –4 penalty instead. This effect is always active. A balor can increase the radius of this effect to 100 ft. for one round as a free action, but doing this deals 30 points of damage to the balor, ignoring damage reduction. Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balor is wreathed in flame. Anyone grappling a balor takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round. It also allows for some additional uses. Unholy heat: As a free action, a balor’s demonic soul fuels the evil fires on it body, and deals an additional 6d6 damage with its flaming body damage, but suffers 10 points of damage that ignores its damage reduction. Flare: As a standard action, a balor may flare up its flames. This is similar to flame strike, save the damage is 18d6 and affects all creatures within a 30 ft radius of the balor, Reflex DC 30 half. A balor may only use this effect once per 1d4 rounds.Blast: As a standard action, a balor may combine its whip attack with its flaming body flare, and make a line effect of unholy fire. This is similar to flame strike, save it is a line effect 100 ft. long and deals 18d6 damage, Reflex DC 30 half. This counts as a use of the flare effect, and a balor may only use this effect when it has its demonic whip. Frightful Presence (Ex): All non-demons within 300 ft. and fewer HD than the balor must make a Will save DC 28. This fear effect is Charisma based, and takes effect automatically whenever the balor attacks, charges, or makes an Intimidation check in a place other creatures can see. On a failure, creatures with 10 fewer HD than the balor’s HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with more HD, up to the balor’s HD, are shaken for 4d6 rounds. A balor may choose to use this effect against other demons, but demons that fail are treated as if rebuked if they would have been shaken, or commanded if they would have been panicked, similar to an evil cleric rebuking or commanding undead, save the effect still lasts only 4d6 rounds. Entangle (Ex): A balor’s +1 flaming bane demonic whip entangles Large and smaller foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has a hardness of 10 and 40 hit points. The break DC is 30 and the Escape Artist DC 30. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balor immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balor wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the balor’s body until it escapes the whip. The balor cannot use its whip to attack while a creature is entangled within it. The creature automatically takes damage from the bane effect of the demonic whip every round Demonic weapons (Su): As a free action once per round, a balor may summon or dismiss a +1 vorpal unholy flaming burst bane demonic sword and a +1 flaming bane demonic whip to or from its hands, similar to gloves of storing in effect. It can summon either one or both as it desires. These are items unique to each specific balor and only one of each can be in existence at one point If destroyed, the balor can remake the demonic whip as a move action, ripping the tendons and bones needed to create it from its own body. Doing so causes 20 points of damage to the balor, ignoring its damage reduction. If the demonic sword is destroyed, the sword must be remade on its home plane, taking an 8-hour ritual that involves the destruction of several lesser demons and souls. The demonic sword functions as a bastard sword and the balor is automatically proficient with it The target creature type of the bane effect is chosen when summoned, and can be changed once per round as a free action before the balor makes any attacks, melee or otherwise. In the hands of the balor, the demonic sword deals x3 damage on a critical. A demonic sword has a hardness of 20 and 75 hp while in the hands of the balor, The demonic sword can function as a silvered holy weapon in place of its unholy weapon effect only when used to attack a devil with the baatezu subtype. The balor does not suffer a negative level for using the holy effect and it is still detected as evil. The demonic whip is of the chosen bane type when summoned or created, and can be shifted to another creature type once per turn as a free action before the balor makes any attacks, melee or otherwise. When used in the hands of a balor, it allows for the entangle ability. When the balor is destroyed on its home plane or otherwise somehow taken from the balor, the demonic weapons become a Medium +1 vorpal greatsword and a Medium +1 flaming whip. The weapons are destroyed when a balor dies on another plane. Summon Tanar’ri (Sp): Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshness, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell. Death Throes (Ex): When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half ). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding if it is not on its home plane. The demonic weapons survive if on the balor’s home plane, albeit in a lesser form. The save DC is Constitution-based. First off, gave it a fear aura and a debuff aura, both of which help weaken both melee attacks and some spellcasting. Basically, spellcasters that end up close to the balor are going to get hosed, which I see as a good thing. I added some directly offensive options to the flaming body, and increased the potential damage. The damage is close to a dragon's breath weapon, and some of it is unavoidable to whack those pesky rogues and monks. I gave it fast healing 15 to help keep up with the pit fiend's regeneration, though fast healing is clearly not as effecient, so the number is much higher. I changed the problematic vorpal longsword into a more interesting option. The demonic weapons are more clear cut, and, I think, have more flavor in them. Also the damage is a lot better overall, more in line with the damage the pit fiend can do. In addition, I have made the balor a threat to the pit fiend, something that it was only slightly beforehand. Of course, it's all dependent on the demonic sword. Any smart pit fiend will go after the sword first, so it's a race for who can deal the most imporant damage before the other one does. I think treating a demonic unholy weapon as holy when it's swung as a baatezu is appropriate, especially since devils can so easily overcome most of the defenses demons have to begin with. I also got rid of Improved Two-weapon Fighting, as I realized it's a waste of a feat for the balor. When you entangle something, you can't use the whip, anyways, right? So why spend a feat on a secondary attack that you can't use? Speaking of entangle, I changed things to make it more clear on certain points, and scaled it better for the level. And, finally, death throes allows for the weapons to be destroyed when the balor is not on its home plane, and to become useable weapons for the PCs when kill the balor in the Abyss, or whatever home plane you have them.
Keterys 12-18-06, 12:53 AM	though fast healing is clearly not as effecient Eh, the difference is fairly negligible during battle. So, it's got a lot more hit points than the Pit Fiend, and heals at triple the rate. In addition, you can't really 'beat' fast healing like you can regeneration. The 12d6 fire, 6d6 non, save against one, etc is just a bit clunky. I'd suggest more of a flame strike type effect - ie, deals 18d6, half of which is fire. The sword just feels overly complicated, frankly. Multiple metals, alignments, banes, etc. No need to do all that, especially not restricted to very specific opponents (just baatezu) Frankly, even the frightful presence is kludgy in statement execution. Just let it not work on demons, and be shaken for 10 HD or lower, done. Takes out half the words with no real change in effect. While arguments can easily be made that the entangle DCs are too low, yours are frankly too high. The strength DC given is difficult for a Tarrasque, and impossible for any sane PC (or any demon or devil, for that matter). The escape artist is able to be made by a character concentrating in it at that level, though not by anyone else. Whether that's an issue depends on whether you want to reward characters for having escape artist. I think it could easily be lower than 30 safely. Encouraging people that their skill can sometimes be useful over the blanket 'freedom of movement' type use is nice. I guess you can make the weapons stick around - it won't be helpful for most PCs, and frankly I think the idea of the Balor creating them out of thin air as needed is a much cooler SFX (ala, Lord of the Rings) Anyhow, for all that criticism, there's a lot of good base ideas, I'm just trying to fine tune your approach, Karak. I think you might have overshot things in the Balor's favor in a Balor vs. Pit Fiend matchup by quite a bit, though.
Keterys 12-18-06, 01:06 AM	The balor doesn't need an "egg timer" - this is getting ridiculous fast - the wall of fire drops, he puts up a new one. The cloying darkness of an unholy aura drops, he puts up a new one. Do you need to be reminded to put on clothes? Do you take your shoes off and on? Do you remember when you walk outside naked on bare feet? Same thing. Do your clothes jump off you every couple minutes? How about your shoes? I'll say, if humans were designed such that they did - we _wouldn't_ wear them. Sure, exploring the antarctic or space, we'd have a little beeper than every minute would tell us to rebuckle everything for the next 10 seconds, but other than that? Nope, hello nudity and really good callouses. If he's only putting up new unholy auras when the previous one drops, then do you roll for remaining duration every single time an encounter comes up? If it cares, it's far more logical it would want to done every 3 minutes, say, so it's never going to be without. Hence, the egg timer analogy. I used to own an egg timer that lasted 3 minutes, and I'm sorry but the vision of a Balor strolling around with one on each wrist is just too funny to pass up :) Have you ever played online games that have buffs that you need to renew every couple minutes? Have you ever observed how bad people are at managing them, especially in the absence of a system to do it for them (mods, tracking systems, etc). Have you ever checked out how many buffs people have on them in, say, a city where they think they're safe? Or while they're in conversation with other people? Okay, how about in a rough and tumble fight where speed is the essence? Do they have all their buffs on? If you don't have the background, I'll let you know - they don't, really often. It takes time, and attention, and sometimes you need to get somewhere, or you don't care because you're not going into battle _now_... at least, you think. Or the buffs run out in the middle of battle, etc. And that's all with things to help track. Without such things? Eh, not worth the bother. Going a step further - how often would I create fires all over the place I'm in that I _can't see through_? Well, being paranoid... pretty rarely. I'd put them where they made sense to be, of course, but I wouldn't block my ability to sense areas. That's just dumb tactics. It does a little bit of damage and potentially hinders an enemy, but it _definitely_ hinders me, and anything that hinders my chance of survival is out. I will say, how usable 'at will' spell likes is at least an interesting topic. Probably should be broken out into its own, however, if it's going to continue much.
DungeonMaster 12-18-06, 01:38 AM	Karak_Nechot: This is "pretty standard" AC for a high level fighter "standing around". Base 10 + 8 mithral full plate + 5 enhancement + 4 tower shield +5 enhancement +5 ring of protection +5 amulet of natural armor +1 insight ioun stone + 5 expertise + 3 dex + 1 dodge= AC 52. Most high level players will be polymorphed into something with natural armor and the AC can reach much higher numbers with things like defending weapons. This is why I keep saying it "isn't a physical monster". Fiddling with the demonic whip and sword or whatever you want to call it adding 1d6 here and there won't change the fact it can't hit the broad side of a barn at these levels and was never really intended to in the first place. A very old silver dragon has base +40 and spells for a reason. You need to increase the hit dice and lower the ability scores in proportion if you want a physical monster. Otherwise you're spending a page describing physical abilities and people will get the wrong impression that the monster is in fact supposed to use that sword and whip regularly as opposed to his spell like abilities. As for the other abilities just give it a plain sword, no abilities tied to it. You kill the balor you get the sword. It still can't defend it's lair, or itself against targeted effects. So it's still as big a chump as the 3.5 balor.
DungeonMaster 12-18-06, 01:54 AM	Do your clothes jump off you every couple minutes? How about your shoes? If you work in a lab then yes, and I do. I have to change regularly going into and out of my workspace. Is it a hassle? Nah, you get used to it. It's not a big deal. Have you ever played online games that have buffs that you need to renew every couple minutes? No to be truthful I havn't but I'll bet the online gamer isn't under the threat of getting his character permanently killed either. Nor is the average online gamer even close to approaching the intellect of a balor. I'll also wager that those people that do advance in levels quickly are able of managing their spells and abilities quite well. Going a step further - how often would I create fires all over the place I'm in that I _can't see through_? Well, being paranoid... pretty rarely. You're putting the cart in front of the donkey there friend, let's step back a bit and ask the stupid question of how far does a balor see? Unless your spawn of chaos and darkness is fond of nice brightly lit meadows chances are he's living in a dark mine that he's taken over from dwarves or somesuch "dungeon". Chances are then that our lord of chaos and evil has 60 ft. of darkvision. Or he could light walls of fire at 300 feet or whatever interval is conveniant and see a hell of a lot more. And burn stuff. Like PCs. I think walls of fire everywhere is a whole lot more plausible than not - by your own argument - you cannot but agree.
Keterys 12-18-06, 01:58 AM	The polymorphing will vary a lot from game to game (especially now that wizards has wiped their hands of polymorph and effectively told people not to use it), but the example AC given is off a bit - it includes Dodge, 5 points of expertise, a tower shield, and 3 dex... something that's fairly unlikely to actually combine (tower shield has a max dex of +2, such a character would be at -7 to hit, only using a 1 handed weapon, and has _dodge_ which is actually fairly rare for heavy plate 1-handed wearers - the Balor might just ignore a 1-handed wielder who was at -7 to hit at him in favor of more threatening targets, til that was all that was left, for instance) So, one thing you should do is compare to what the game is balanced around... for example, iconic Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, and Lidda at 18th (Bastion of Broken Souls): Tordek AC 42 Jozan AC 35 Mialee AC 30ish (18 without buffs) Lidda AC 36 Those will probably go up 1 or 2 from there, but not much more. Some (many, perhaps) games will run higher than that, but in those games the DM should consider accounting for that. Like, did you do 25 point buy or elite array, give out semi-random treasure, require crafting times for items, etc... those all really curveball the min/max approach. Even if you didn't, not much will get Tordek much higher. He doesn't have expertise or a tower shield so he'll pretty much cap out at about 44. The Balor and Pit Fiend both have attack bonuses in the same range, and that range is around where it's expected that PCs will fall into (much like an NPC with good gear will end up there). If yours don't (like mine didn't in one campaign), you may find buffing monsters good. Otherwise, there's a reason I gave the quickened greater dispel suggestion for Balors :) As an easy litmus test - if your players can't hit themselves, then there's probably something out of whack :) For example, the example Tordek is +31 to hit... which means he'd need a 21 on the d20 to hit AC 52, with his best attack. Haste and flanking would bump him up to 34 at least, so he'd only need 18 for the first, but the rest would be looking for 20s.
runestar 12-18-06, 03:16 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050809a This article might shed some insight on how tough a balor is in combat.:)
El_Machinae 12-18-06, 09:57 AM	All that smack about the entangle attack ... It takes an attack action for the Balor to engage it, and a standard action to remove it. All said, it's an efficient (optional) attack form.
DungeonMaster 12-18-06, 10:26 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050809a This article might shed some insight on how tough a balor is in combat.:) If the balor had been alone to start it would have died in 3 rounds following his list of actions. This DM absolutely had to use high powered minions, which is probably the only way to properly play the 3.5 balor as it really can't stand on its own. The players were 16th to 17th level and even with the minions they only lost a PC as a result of a lucky roll. Albeit they're using a large amount of non-core rules which tilts the balance heavily in favor of the players. The PCs' strategy was pretty bad terrible though - target the minions first ? Even after the thing has shown up to fight? Why they didn't teleport/astrally project directly to the balor and kick its ass then and there is probably a campaign related issue we're not aware of. They likely don't have enough energy drain to wipe it out instantly from the sounds of it. A good battle report nonetheless, thanks for finding it. It proves a lot of my points.
Count Arioch the 28th 12-18-06, 10:35 AM	Dungeonmaster, you've shown you're pretty skilled at the old 3E balor, I have a question: How exactly did balor having Symbol work? It seems to me that it would trigger its own symbols, would it not? Mind shedding some light into that?
DungeonMaster 12-18-06, 10:47 AM	While I do enjoy Bruce's design work it was rather early in the edition that they produced that module Keterys. The flip side of the argument is that it's a perfect example of what people who don't play regularly will devise as an "acceptable" range of ACs (and the fighter's will save is much much too low to survive incidentally). In that case you're perfectly correct, and I'de be willing to admit that the average group that doesn't play high level D&D regularly (or mid-level for that matter) will be easier to hit than what I've indicated. Polymorph is still a large part of the game, though moving away from it you would be correct. Hitting your own AC isn't a concern - a 2nd level fighter can't hit his own AC with full plate and tower shield any more than a 20th level fighter can. That being said attack bonuses can (and do) go well into the 35+ range.
Keterys 12-18-06, 11:02 AM	it was rather early in the edition Err, it was the last module in the path. And it was published way after the monster manual. You know, after they'd done all the design and balancing. It can't account for DMs allowing things like insight and luck bonuses to AC from home brewed items, but other than that it's not bad off. Polymorph is only a part of some games. It isn't a part of any game I happen to play or DM lately, and I'd imagine the same goes for all the people in all the new 'Living' games that have banned it per wotc's policy. But, yeah, it opens a huuuge kettle of worms. That's part of what made the old sorcerer broken, the polymorph type spells. a 2nd level fighter can't hit his own AC with full plate and tower shield any more than a 20th level fighter can. Well, for starters he shouldn't have a tower shield. Once you get past that, he's got a +5 or so to hit AC 21 or so. That's pretty fair.
DungeonMaster 12-18-06, 08:24 PM	Our playstyles are clearly vastly different. I've had tower shields on every fighter I've ever DMed and a polymorph self/other spell at least once per game as well as soon as it's available. I don't think the original 3rd edition spell is broken though very powerful. The sample group as it stands in the bastion of broken souls is underpowered by my mark, do you agree or not?
Keterys 12-18-06, 11:59 PM	The party used in Bastion is the baseline that the game was balanced around. Asking if they're underpowered is a loaded statement. They're using 'elite' arrays with only access to PHB feats and spells and DMG treasure, and it very much shows. So, if the caliber of characters has gone up, either the CRs should be decreased or the monsters buffed :) In the play circles I've been in, tower shields see occasional use, largely in specific situations, but are not the primary shield. Used as cover, they break so easily, and +2 AC for -2 attack, with no control over that... people tend to just get expertise instead. Frankly, two-handed weapons and an 'offense over defense' tend to win out against most opponents because 'tanks' don't have the output to matter, and are easily avoided. I think you have a much easier 'crafting' situation, though - trying to get multiple rods of maximize just isn't possible in any game I'm in, so it's only a matter of randomly finding one (and note, never found one yet)... just don't have crafters who have the time and resources available. By the time it was created, the campaign would already be over. (122 days after you get the 122k gp and find the person to craft it, the world has ended or you've hit your highest level and ended the campaign kinda thing) - lower tier stuff, sure. As for running the 3.0 Balor correctly... what's he do against people who have blindsight, immunity to death, fire, and mind effects, protections against blasphemy, and spell blades (greater dispel magic)... oh, who are hasted and flying vorpal-crit on a 10 or so or deal 40d6 spell damage on an average hit? Far as I can tell, it just rolls over and dies, at least doing something when he explodes. Smoke doesn't help. Fire doesn't help. Symbols don't help. 110 hp or a quick lopped head later, and thanks for playing. Or, if you'd rather, hit it with 13 negative levels (just as easy to throw negative levels back in 3.0, but it had 7 less hit dice...) - buff him up, give him some fortification armor, etc and he becomes more interesting, but he's so far off his CR in a fight like that it just ends up dumb. And it plays sooo boringly. He's a crappy gimmicky caster, without the true versatility of a caster, or the melee power of a dedicated meleer. But, as you say, they've been noticing things in the last 30 years of gaming, and that's why it's evolved into the much more solid 3.5 version. Factor in that they've removed shapeshifting spells from general balance consideration and things are looking a heck of a lot better for it.
DungeonMaster 12-19-06, 01:31 AM	The party used in Bastion is the baseline that the game was balanced around. Asking if they're underpowered is a loaded statement. They're using 'elite' arrays with only access to PHB feats and spells and DMG treasure, and it very much shows. :uh-huh: I was talking about how underpowered they are using core rules. If you'll notice I've issued only core rules challenges - in fact I run only core rules in my games! I don't even use prestige classes! In the games I run AC and staying alive is more important that doing that extra point or so of damage. You see plenty of people with the best armor and sheilds you can buy in my games. Rods of maximize aren't possible in my games, I play only core 3rd edition - not 3.5. :P As for running the 3.0 Balor correctly... what's he do against people who have blindsight, immunity to eath, fire, and mind effects, protections against blasphemy, and spell blades (greater dispel magic)... oh, who are hasted and flying vorpal-crit on a 10 or so or deal 40d6 spell damage on an average hit? I take it you're talking about heavily non-core rules nonsense. In that case what does a 3.5 balor do against hulking hurlers that can destroy toril and kobolds with salient divine abilities at level 11? Seriously, non-core stuff is broken way more than core rules. Under core rules the balor is a major threat. Heck under core rules in 3.5 you can kill roomfulls of 3.5 abusing holy word and core prestige classes without rolling a die as a free action . And it plays sooo boringly. He's a crappy gimmicky caster, without the true versatility of a caster, or the melee power of a dedicated meleer. I'm now confused, first symbol at will is too good, now it's gimmick, what next? You've clearly never played a balor properly so I don't know how you can complain it's boring. It's much more epic and terrifying than the 3.5 moronic "I stand there and get smashed" balor. But, as you say, they've been noticing things in the last 30 years of gaming, and that's why it's evolved into the much more solid 3.5 version. Factor in that they've removed shapeshifting spells from general balance consideration and things are looking a heck of a lot better for it. You know, despite your claims about the 3rd edition balor being less solid neither you or that other guy have taken up my challenge and I've provided ample means of killing the 3.5 balor in the surprise round . So it's not 30+ years of experience going into its creation - it's incompetence. You might houserule out shapechanging magic but to the PHB and the average gamer it means nothing. The balor can't hit the fighter without shapechanging magic. It's a terrible mellee monster, get over it.
Keterys 12-19-06, 10:52 AM	You've clearly never played a balor properly ... incompetence And, on that note, you can shove it. Done with trying to give you the benefit of the doubt to having a pair of brain cells to scratch together. Part of me is actually surprised you made the leap to 3.0 from 1st or 2nd edition. Players drag you kicking and screaming? ;) All the material used in the examples I gave was still wotc base supplements (ie, tome of blood, complete divine, etc). Oddly enough, many groups do use them. Knowing you don't use any of them _and_ that you don't allow prestige classes does explain many of the things (like a fighter with both dodge and expertise - he's hardly got any options not to at that level) In 3.0, tower shields were actually quite a bit more viable than they are in 3.5, because of the way damaging magic items worked and their own rules, so that does explain at least some of the difference of opinion on that particular mark. But, 3.0 is behind me, as are you.
DungeonMaster 12-19-06, 12:01 PM	And, on that note, you can shove it. Done with trying to give you the benefit of the doubt to having a pair of brain cells to scratch together. Touchy touchy, beware the code of conduct. http://www.despair.com/compromise.html I've had to correct you several times about the balor's abilities (continously detecting magic for instance). It's perfectly reasonable to assume you didn't run it properly. 3.5 is an incompetent redesign of 3rd edition in both core and non-core rules, you're free to disagree but the balor is just one example of this. Uncapping holy word/blasphemy is another example of incompetence - it was already damn powerful then the turd uncapped it. And then he didn't even bother to check every caster level bonus in the core rules. So you get +5 hierophant spell power +1 orange ioun stone +1 good domain +4 bead of karma. That's a caster level of 31 for a 20th level caster. He bursts any number of balors, titans, pitfiends, instantly without save or SR. *poof* all dead. As a free action using a rod of quicken too. Part of me is actually surprised you made the leap to 3.0 from 1st or 2nd edition. Players drag you kicking and screaming? I still play 2nd edition, it's still great fun. I still hate 2.5 - "skills and power" & co. The .5 editions tend to be terrible in general in D&D. I prefer overall 3rd edition to second, though second edition had much better non-core rules overall than 3rd. You could actually use entire books without having to edit out 80% of the rules as in 3rd and 3.5. All the material used in the examples I gave was still wotc base supplements (ie, tome of blood, complete divine, etc). Sure you can tag on lots of nonsense using these. There's just as much and more stupidity in 3.5 non-core was my point. Many DMs dissallow prestige classes and non-core material, it's all optional . This isn't uncommon, prestige classes are broken 95% of the time. They really have no point other than to bend rules. Saying you can defeat a balor by being immune to all its abilities as a result of whatever non-core nonsense you've tacked onto your character isn't the same as facing the balor without non-core nonsense. It's a damn tough monster in core 3rd edition.
Morrowner 12-19-06, 12:08 PM	I'll take the Balor on. 4 level 12 characters are supposed to kill it. And after it happens like its supposed to(the Balor gets its ass whupped) just think of all the fun we can have pitting 3.0 demons and devils and daemons against their multiple analog demons and devils and daemons with lower CRs and vastly better everything. It'll be a hoot!:D
DungeonMaster 12-19-06, 12:45 PM	Good show Morrowner! "Less talk more fight!" Go create a party of 12th level PCs. Core 3rd edition rules, nothing optional (i.e plain races, classes, feats, spells, items, etc... no prestige classes). Standard array for ability scores: 15,14,13,12,10,8. Standard wealth, 88 000 GP. No single item worth more than 40 000 GP market price. If you bring a wizard pay for extra spells beyond what you get by level increase by buying scrolls, assume you learn the spell automatically. Down underground, nothing ran straight. Your party has travelled for 10 days and 10 nights through the seemingly endless twisting passages of the mines of the great dwarven stronghold without seeing a soul. You find naught but death, clinging to the shafts of goblin crafted arrows. Deep you have gone now, with the fear of a fleeting shadow just at the edge of sight and hearing. Now you have found the heart of the maze, or so you beleive - and the 40 foot tall door of stone confirms your greatest fear. There, etched in the rock by a smouldering claw above the doorway is a symbol . Your rogue claims he was lucky to have detected it. Its speaks only of death and the eternal damnation that lies just beyond. The floor is level, the ceiling is some 60 feet high. The symbol you are convinced will trigger upon passing through the doorway. You have some 20 feet radius of level ground in and about the doorway, an uneven sharp slope leads up and outwards from this doorway to the rest of the mines.
Keterys 12-19-06, 02:34 PM	continously detecting magic for instance Which does nothing, whatsoever, unless it concentrates. 'Presence of magic' tells him nothing when he's surrounded by magic he himself is putting up :) But, thanks for proving your own 'incompetence', as you say.
Morrowner 12-19-06, 03:09 PM	Less bickering more helping with the stabbing and shocking of the Balor until it goes buh bye. Edit: I get 3.0 Haste, Balor doesn't. Do I really have to dig around for my 3.0 books or can I just spike the Ball-or now?
Karak_Nechot 12-19-06, 03:28 PM	Eh, the difference is fairly negligible during battle. So, it's got a lot more hit points than the Pit Fiend, and heals at triple the rate. In addition, you can't really 'beat' fast healing like you can regeneration. That's what I want, there. It helps keep the balor alive in melee for longer than two rounds. The 12d6 fire, 6d6 non, save against one, etc is just a bit clunky. I'd suggest more of a flame strike type effect - ie, deals 18d6, half of which is fire. Good point. I'll change that. The sword just feels overly complicated, frankly. Multiple metals, alignments, banes, etc. No need to do all that, especially not restricted to very specific opponents (just baatezu) See, the thing is, the balor is supposed to be the 'soul' of the blood war, and yet, they really, REALLY suck at it. You will note the number of pit fiend vs. balor threads, and see that almost unanimously, the pit fiend cannot be killed by the balor save by some very lucky blows. I think that a balor and pit fiend ought to be on near equal levels when it comes to killing each other. It changes nothing for the PCs but give them more of a punch in the Blood War. Frankly, even the frightful presence is kludgy in statement execution. Just let it not work on demons, and be shaken for 10 HD or lower, done. Takes out half the words with no real change in effect. Yeah, I know it's clunky, but it should be able to scale with the balor's HD. I want it to work with demons in that respect simply for the 'generals of the Abyss' aspect of the balor. I'll see if there's a better way of wording it. While arguments can easily be made that the entangle DCs are too low, yours are frankly too high. The strength DC given is difficult for a Tarrasque, and impossible for any sane PC (or any demon or devil, for that matter). The escape artist is able to be made by a character concentrating in it at that level, though not by anyone else. Whether that's an issue depends on whether you want to reward characters for having escape artist. I think it could easily be lower than 30 safely. Encouraging people that their skill can sometimes be useful over the blanket 'freedom of movement' type use is nice. Just remember two things. First, simply sundering the whip is always a viable option. That's why I increased the hardness and hp of the whip. It should be hard to escape the whip. Second, the Strength DC is for a BREAK check, which would destroy the whip. I really feel that should be a tarrasque-like feat. However, I think lowering it to 30 would probably be more appropriate. I can see your point on lowering the DCs. I just wanted either option to be not quite as easy as it was with the normal net. Cutting through a normal net is so easy that it makes using the weapon almost a joke past, say, level 6 or so. I guess you can make the weapons stick around - it won't be helpful for most PCs, and frankly I think the idea of the Balor creating them out of thin air as needed is a much cooler SFX (ala, Lord of the Rings) That's what it does, actually. It summons or dismisses them as a free action. However, it merely has one of each at any given time, and has to undertake special actions if they are destroyed or stolen (kind of like a githyanki sword). I supposed I can remove the part about the sword or whip needing to be taken back before he can summon them again. Anyhow, for all that criticism, there's a lot of good base ideas, I'm just trying to fine tune your approach, Karak. I think you might have overshot things in the Balor's favor in a Balor vs. Pit Fiend matchup by quite a bit, though. Well, I kind of wanted both. Edit: just reworked the balor real fast with a few of the suggestions, and rethought some things. I posted it above to save space on the thread
DungeonMaster 12-19-06, 04:23 PM	Edit: I get 3.0 Haste, Balor doesn't. Do I really have to dig around for my 3.0 books or can I just spike the Ball-or now? Absolutely you get haste. Just post them and I'll tell you what you need to correct, I know the system very well, it will be easiest that way.
DungeonMaster 12-19-06, 04:38 PM	But, thanks for proving your own 'incompetence', as you say. You need to read your 1st level magic again. Concentration is not required - it's required for someone to keep the duration going but it's not at all required for the spell to pinpoint auras. You walk into the cone, and he's been standing there for 3 rounds, you're pinpointed. I agree with the more stabing and shocking buisness (uh... heads up: 3rd edition balor immune to lightning) rather than fruitless discussion.
Keterys 12-19-06, 06:02 PM	I can at least understand why you think that is the way it works, yes, even if it is incorrect. I suggest you doublecheck the 3.0 FAQ for how detect magic works. The pertinent details are on p55, a discussion of locating an enemy with detect magic. A given subject has to be in the area for 3 rounds to get the full details. Gazing at an area doesn't mystically get you the full information when a new subject enters the area. Note that Detect Magic can be made Permanent. You need to 'study' an area to get the further details. Whether you think that requires an action or not may vary, but the most frequent ruling given by others in my presence is that it requires concentration to 'study' an area. The 3.5 FAQ requires concentration as part of this question, but that doesn't help in this instance since it doesn't explicitly state such for a permanent detect magic. P.S. Morrowner, you're probably going to have to actually work at it to prove that 12th levels can cakewalk it... especially with only the PHB/DMG and the item limitations (no vorpal, no shield of annihilation). Being evil or deaf (thunderstones unite) lets you bypass the blasphemy. Protection from fire I suppose... you can counterspell dispels with your haste action... you aren't high enough level to be immune to all the symbols, though. No mind blank til 15th/16th. Prot Evil and Heroes Feast nets you most things, at least. Haste is good, but it's not _that_ good. You can Haste-Harm, but beating SR is a serious issue. He'll probably be aware of you, through the solid stone door, over the roaring flames of the walls of fire that your party has already heard (unstated - maybe cause you're deaf), somehow though :) Probably time to throw some summoned creatures in.
DungeonMaster 12-20-06, 10:36 AM	Hmm... I've never used the FAQ before. But I'm willing to give the PCs in this challenge the most advantageous interpretation even if I wouldn't use that in my game. As for evil PCs, sure, I don't mind but the results are not necessarily representative of a normal party alignment make-up. They're still all going to die horribly. :devil: Spells cannot counterspell spell-like abilities and vice-versa, MM p.8 so no luck there. I've got to run a D&D game tonight so I won't be online after say about 3PM today (need to prepare...). But tomorrow and Friday I'll be around for sure.
Keterys 12-20-06, 11:20 AM	Funny thing is, I knew you couldn't counterspell it earlier, but still wrote it later. Not sure why. Probably just cause haste-counterspells is so awesome against actual casters :) But, yeah, plant me firmly in the "You're both wrong" camp. 12th level is too early, but the old Balor is still horrible :) Of course, a little luck can still take the Balor out quick... so, we'll see how that goes.
Morrowner 12-20-06, 11:37 AM	I've got a Dungeons and Dragons "dead to me" week coming up shortly. I work every shift next week, today I've got 2 exams in about 2 hours, and Thursday Night Football is Tarvaris Jackson's first start against Minnesota's archrival, no way am I missing that. Dungeons and Dragons until about Tuesday simply ain't gonna happen. I have a feeling that the Balor is going to torch 2 guys down before the others can get him so its going to be a bit of pyrhic victory.
DungeonMaster 12-20-06, 03:47 PM	Next week sometime then, I'de say Thursday for me. I've got my annual christmas D&D game this saturday. The theme of the game is to hunt down a severly injured balor with a host of angels. They're all going to be ~13th level. They don't know it yet but the angels will all be dead/dismissed before they can kill the thing and in the final room (should they make it there...) the balor waits for them in the exact same setup as here with additional unholy ground with a spell tied to it. All they will need to do is land one good blow on it defeat it (20 hp). They'll also be acquiring gear throughout the various rooms that will help them (very powerful items like helm of brilliance and so forth, it's intended to be a fun 1-shot). I'll try and post pictures.
DungeonMaster 12-25-06, 11:33 PM	Merry Christmas all, we had a fun christmas session. I denied the balor teleport, implosion, fire-storm and didn't allow it to summon another monster and gave it only 20 hp. The PCs were a mixed bag of lv.12-13 and had much more gear than their level usually allows (1.5x and a whole lot of other items). In the end analysis 7 of 13 PCs died and everyone had a lot of fun. They managed in very desperate fashion to deal 20 hp of damage to it and to hit it with 1 spell. Because some players needed to leave I had to change the setup somewhat, that and the fact that the PCs sorta screwed themselves over with their own wall of force.
tridiak 12-26-06, 02:22 PM	For some randomness, give the Balor a cleric Domain where he can use the spells as spell-like abilities X times per day (higher the level, less frequency). Every Balor (& Pit Fiend) would have a different domain and therefore harder to prepare for. Domains : Chaos (Law for Pit Fiend), Death, Destruction, Evil, Fire, Knowledge?, Magic ?, Protection, Strength, Travel ?, Trickery, War. Spell Level Times per day 1 - at will, 2 - at will, 3 - 7, 4 - 5, 5 - 3, 6 - 2, 7 - 2, 8 -1 , 9 - 1(or less). I think their melee weapon should have one or two extra special abilities. Or even be epic if their HD is high enough.