Balor's LA [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Balor's LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kobold_Avenger
06-01-06, 03:31 PM Does anyone know what the LA for the balor would be? I know its not in the MM and that it would only be playable in epic levels. Has anyone made a Balor racial class of the same sort as the ones in SS?
Talisman
06-01-06, 05:09 PM +1 for fly speed 90',
+4 for natural armor +19,
+1 for reach,
+2 for at-will SLAs,
+1 for flaming body,
+2 for continuous true seeing,
+1 for wildly unbalanced abilities.
Total LA +12; total ECL 32. It's a starting point, and should be playtested, but it looks decent offhand.

This assumes the balor doesn't get its trademark vorpal sword and flaming whip for free, but instead has to earn its magic like everyone else.

Of course you realize that, by the RAW, demons don't advance like this. That is, there are no "1st-level" balors; balors are promoted from lesser demon types by the Lords of the Abyss.

Haven't seen a balor racial class.
Witch
06-01-06, 05:14 PM A good guideline according to WotC is usually "Half the CR".

So I'd say +10.
__DnD4Life__
06-01-06, 11:07 PM A good guideline according to WotC is usually "Half the CR".

So I'd say +10.
I thought that was about right, but balors seem to be REALLY good for their CR, as are dragons. I would put the CR at the 12-14 range, then playtest it.
Kobold_Avenger
06-02-06, 10:32 AM I think the ability scores adjustments are worth more than +1.
Kresalak
06-02-06, 02:45 PM I thought that was about right, but balors seem to be REALLY good for their CR, as are dragons. I would put the CR at the 12-14 range, then playtest it.
Dragons, in a player sense, suck for their CR, since they usually have nearly twice as much HD as CR. Off topic, but once you get to the dragons who's HD would make them Epic, I'd suggest LA +0.

Remember, the purpose of LA is to make the creature equal to a normal character of their level. A balor has 20 HD and is CR 20, but those HD are outsider HD, which rock.

So let's see. It has 20 Outsider HD, which should do a little bit to aleviate the LA, but not much since they're Outsider HD.

It is Large, which shouldn't count as anything considering it's probably going to be rather high level already.

It has +19 NA. This is a rather big boost, since with player level gold his AC could get huge. This will be taken into consideration.

Death Throes is a detriment to the party, since they are likely to be in the area of effect. This is a bad ability for someone in a group, and that will be taken into consideration.

Entangle only works when the balor has a whip, and guess what-unlike the sword, the whip is not an ability of the balor, so he has to get his own. Not worth much.

Spell-Like Abilities. At will use of these is not equivalent to actual spellcasting, since they are limited. They are worth a bit though. Note that True Seeing is roughly equivalent to True Seeing at will, so include it in this.

Summon Demon is said to be the equivalent of a 9th level spell. Like Gate, only weaker since he can't go crazy and summon up some abomination. Include it in the SLA category.

Vorpal Sword. Free item, but vorpal sucks now. Not worth much.

Flaming Body is cool, but not worth very much. About the equivalent of a feat or two, really.

The bonus to skills is nothing upon all the other stuff.

Ability scores are nice, and will be taken into account.

The other abilities are rather minor.

Overall, I'd say a balor is LA +6 for melee types, LA - for spellcasters, LA +3 for support types (rogues, bards, monks, etc.). Balors are really good for melee, since they get big bonuses to Str and Con, 20 BAB, and that big NA bonus. Spellcasters lose at least 20 levels of spellcasting, and shouldn't ever be a balor. Ever. They screw themselves over so much, that they shouldn't even be allowed to be one. If they really want to play a demonic spellcaster, there are classes and the Tome of Fiends (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9285334#post9285334) for that. Support types can benefit from the balor's abilities, but not as much as melee types.

Overall, I think the publishes level adjustments for most creatures suck, and the guidelines for level adjustments in SS are even worse. The idea of LA is to make a character of equal ability to a normal one, and usually LA makes a character who is horrible weak compared to a normal one. I think that a creature who is forced into one thing should be slightly better at that one thing than others who could also do many other things; hence the multiple level adjustments for different roles.

I could make a rather large project out of redoing high level level adjustements, but that would take time I don't want to spend.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kobold_Avenger 06-01-06, 03:31 PM	Does anyone know what the LA for the balor would be? I know its not in the MM and that it would only be playable in epic levels. Has anyone made a Balor racial class of the same sort as the ones in SS?
Talisman 06-01-06, 05:09 PM	+1 for fly speed 90', +4 for natural armor +19, +1 for reach, +2 for at-will SLAs, +1 for flaming body, +2 for continuous true seeing, +1 for wildly unbalanced abilities. Total LA +12; total ECL 32. It's a starting point, and should be playtested, but it looks decent offhand. This assumes the balor doesn't get its trademark vorpal sword and flaming whip for free, but instead has to earn its magic like everyone else. Of course you realize that, by the RAW, demons don't advance like this. That is, there are no "1st-level" balors; balors are promoted from lesser demon types by the Lords of the Abyss. Haven't seen a balor racial class.
Witch 06-01-06, 05:14 PM	A good guideline according to WotC is usually "Half the CR". So I'd say +10.
__DnD4Life__ 06-01-06, 11:07 PM	A good guideline according to WotC is usually "Half the CR". So I'd say +10. I thought that was about right, but balors seem to be REALLY good for their CR, as are dragons. I would put the CR at the 12-14 range, then playtest it.
Kobold_Avenger 06-02-06, 10:32 AM	I think the ability scores adjustments are worth more than +1.
Kresalak 06-02-06, 02:45 PM	I thought that was about right, but balors seem to be REALLY good for their CR, as are dragons. I would put the CR at the 12-14 range, then playtest it. Dragons, in a player sense, suck for their CR, since they usually have nearly twice as much HD as CR. Off topic, but once you get to the dragons who's HD would make them Epic, I'd suggest LA +0. Remember, the purpose of LA is to make the creature equal to a normal character of their level. A balor has 20 HD and is CR 20, but those HD are outsider HD, which rock. So let's see. It has 20 Outsider HD, which should do a little bit to aleviate the LA, but not much since they're Outsider HD. It is Large, which shouldn't count as anything considering it's probably going to be rather high level already. It has +19 NA. This is a rather big boost, since with player level gold his AC could get huge. This will be taken into consideration. Death Throes is a detriment to the party, since they are likely to be in the area of effect. This is a bad ability for someone in a group, and that will be taken into consideration. Entangle only works when the balor has a whip, and guess what-unlike the sword, the whip is not an ability of the balor, so he has to get his own. Not worth much. Spell-Like Abilities. At will use of these is not equivalent to actual spellcasting, since they are limited. They are worth a bit though. Note that True Seeing is roughly equivalent to True Seeing at will, so include it in this. Summon Demon is said to be the equivalent of a 9th level spell. Like Gate, only weaker since he can't go crazy and summon up some abomination. Include it in the SLA category. Vorpal Sword. Free item, but vorpal sucks now. Not worth much. Flaming Body is cool, but not worth very much. About the equivalent of a feat or two, really. The bonus to skills is nothing upon all the other stuff. Ability scores are nice, and will be taken into account. The other abilities are rather minor. Overall, I'd say a balor is LA +6 for melee types, LA - for spellcasters, LA +3 for support types (rogues, bards, monks, etc.). Balors are really good for melee, since they get big bonuses to Str and Con, 20 BAB, and that big NA bonus. Spellcasters lose at least 20 levels of spellcasting, and shouldn't ever be a balor. Ever. They screw themselves over so much, that they shouldn't even be allowed to be one. If they really want to play a demonic spellcaster, there are classes and the Tome of Fiends (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9285334#post9285334) for that. Support types can benefit from the balor's abilities, but not as much as melee types. Overall, I think the publishes level adjustments for most creatures suck, and the guidelines for level adjustments in SS are even worse. The idea of LA is to make a character of equal ability to a normal one, and usually LA makes a character who is horrible weak compared to a normal one. I think that a creature who is forced into one thing should be slightly better at that one thing than others who could also do many other things; hence the multiple level adjustments for different roles. I could make a rather large project out of redoing high level level adjustements, but that would take time I don't want to spend.