Balor v. Molydeus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balor v. Molydeus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 09:28 PM A balor has a CR of 20, and a molydeus 19. Is a balor, in your opinion, 50% more powerful than a molydeus? Asked another way, who would win in a fight, in your opinion, and why? :)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-06-06, 09:40 PM A balor is more dangerous to a party than a molydeus. However, a molydeus could kill a balor.
Morrowner
12-06-06, 09:54 PM Molydeus can weather the Balor's magical attacksIt hits almost as much and far harder than the Balor in comparison because it will go through the Balor's DR but the Molydeus has the DR to thwart the Balor. He pretty much has to hope for the Vorpal kicking in on a confirmed crit or a botch on a saving throw or otherwise he is screwed.
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 10:20 PM A balor is more dangerous to a party than a molydeus. However, a molydeus could kill a balor.

Interesting. Why and why? :)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-06-06, 10:27 PM Interesting. Why and why? :)

The balor has a higher CR, and ergo is more dangerous to a party. The molydeus has abilities focused on taking tanar'ri out.
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 10:32 PM Molydeus can weather the Balor's magical attacksIt hits almost as much and far harder than the Balor in comparison because it will go through the Balor's DR but the Molydeus has the DR to thwart the Balor. He pretty much has to hope for the Vorpal kicking in on a confirmed crit or a botch on a saving throw or otherwise he is screwed.

Does this mean that you think one or both of them has the wrong CR?
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 10:33 PM The balor has a higher CR, and ergo is more dangerous to a party. The molydeus has abilities focused on taking tanar'ri out.

The whole point of the question it so determine whether the two creatures merit their current CRs because of their relative power. Just assuming that the balor is more threatening to a party assumes away the answer to the question!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-06-06, 10:42 PM The whole point of the question it so determine whether the two creatures merit their current CRs because of their relative power. Just assuming that the balor is more threatening to a party assumes away the answer to the question!

Fine, the balor has more hit points and higher stats, making it a bigger threat.
runestar
12-06-06, 10:45 PM Crs are not an accurate indicator of how well a monster might fare against another. Pitting a balor against a molydeus is not really apt, as their crs suggest how challenging they are against a typical party, not against each other. I don't think the game designers created a molydeus thinking about how cool it would be to turn other balors into manes. He conceived it based on how well it could screw over a lv19 party.:)

If you had to have them fight each other, I would say the molydeus would eventually win. The balor cannot penetrate its dr, and probably cannot deal enough damage to counter fast healing. Meanwhile, the molydeus would in theory, eventually poison the balor enough to turn it into a mane.
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 10:47 PM Fine, the balor has more hit points and higher stats, making it a bigger threat.

Gee, I was hoping this would be a fun thread! :(
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 10:50 PM Crs are not an accurate indicator of how well a monster might fare against another. Pitting a balor against a molydeus is not really apt, as their crs suggest how challenging they are against a typical party, not against each other. I don't think the game designers created a molydeus thinking about how cool it would be to turn other balors into manes. He conceived it based on how well it could screw over a lv19 party.:)

If you had to have them fight each other, I would say the molydeus would eventually win. The balor cannot penetrate its dr, and probably cannot deal enough damage to counter fast healing. Meanwhile, the molydeus would in theory, eventually poison the balor enough to turn it into a mane.

That's more what I was looking for. Good old Rune! :)

Ok, so the molydeus probably would beat the balor one-on-one because of the molydeus' poison, fast healing and ability to penetrate DR, but why is the balor more dangerous to a typical party?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-06-06, 10:59 PM That's more what I was looking for. Good old Rune! :)

Ok, so the molydeus probably would beat the balor one-on-one because of the molydeus' poison, fast healing and ability to penetrate DR, but why is the balor more dangerous to a typical party?

Higher damage and higher stats.
runestar
12-06-06, 11:09 PM Ok, so the molydeus probably would beat the balor one-on-one because of the molydeus' poison, fast healing and ability to penetrate DR, but why is the balor more dangerous to a typical party?
After a quick stat comparison, I would be inclined to say that the balor is deemded more dangerous because it has more powerful SLAs, can summon a more powerful aide(another balor, as compared to a molydeus' marilith), and its death throes ability. These are likely to have a greater impact in battle than dancing weapons, a potent poison attack and lightning bolt/telekinesis SLAs...:P
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 11:14 PM After a quick stat comparison, I would be inclined to say that the balor is deemded more dangerous because it has more powerful SLAs, can summon a more powerful aide(another balor, as compared to a molydeus' marilith), and its death throes ability. These are likely to have a greater impact in battle than dancing weapons, a potent poison attack and lightning bolt/telekinesis SLAs...:P

Couldn't the balor just stand off and blast the molydeus with spell-like abilities and defeat it that way?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-06-06, 11:16 PM Couldn't the balor just stand off and blast the molydeus with spell-like abilities and defeat it that way?

How many of the balor's SLAs actually work on a molydeus. I'm guessing almost none.
CelestialBarbarian
12-06-06, 11:31 PM How many of the balor's SLAs actually work on a molydeus. I'm guessing almost none.

Actually I'm looking at the balor and it doesn't have such great SLAs. Once a day it can do a firestorm and an implosion, and it might be able to do some extra damage with telekenesis. I suppose that the balor could just hover out of range and keep hitting the molydeus with telekenisis. I was thinking of the pit fiend with a meteor swarm, three quickened fireballs, and unlimited regular fireballs per day. Did you know that the molydeus actually has higher SR than the balor--30 v. 28? It also has a higher AC 40 v. 35. I'm starting to wonder if the balor really does represent a bigger threat to a party than a molydeus.
Return of the Flumph
12-07-06, 02:47 AM Balors are specialized at killing adventurers. They are not especially geared toward fighting other demons.

Molydeus are specialized at killing other demons. They are not especially geared toward fighting adventurers.

Therefore, a balor is more challenging to a party of humanoids than a molydeus, but a molydeus would still beat the balor.

Rock paper scissors.
CelestialBarbarian
12-07-06, 03:22 AM Balors are specialized at killing adventurers. They are not especially geared toward fighting other demons.

Molydeus are specialized at killing other demons. They are not especially geared toward fighting adventurers.

Therefore, a balor is more challenging to a party of humanoids than a molydeus, but a molydeus would still beat the balor.

Rock paper scissors.

What about a balor makes it specialized at killing adventurers?
runestar
12-07-06, 03:29 AM What about a balor makes it specialized at killing adventurers?
More potent SLAs, death throes, ability to summon another balor...:D
CelestialBarbarian
12-07-06, 03:33 AM More potent SLAs, death throes, ability to summon another balor...:D

The balor's SLAs aren't that good, as I observed above. Of course, one failed save against the balor's dominate monster, and the molydeus is finished. :)
runestar
12-07-06, 03:43 AM You have me very confused here - just what is it that you are trying to compare here? You seem to be switching between "Balor vs Molydeus" and Balor/Molydeus vs party" arguments. I am talking about a balor's strengths against a party, you go off and say how lacklustre they are because of how they would fare against a Molydeus...?:confused:

No offense, but make up your mind for goodness sake.
Freefall
12-07-06, 04:15 AM I think the Balor would eventually come out on top. The Balor would use Unholy Aura (as it should always do), which would mean that even if the Molydeus gets through the Balor's SR (about 55% chance per SLA), the Balor will only fail to save on a 1, except for Trap the Soul which would take a 5. The Molydeus can attempt to dispel the aura, but it is roughly 50/50, so it will normally take 2 tries to shut it down, and the Balor can just throw it up again. The Balor's SLAs don't have very good odds either, but they are better than 5%, and it can use Dominate Monster and Insanity at will, so eventually one of them will get through (and once one works he would probably just use the other until that worked as well. And if he has summoned another Balor then the SLAs will work that much faster (though in this case it would certainly be worthwhile for the Molydeus to dispel the other Balor, but it could still expedite things).

One thing to do would be to command the Molydeus to give the Balor (or simply discard and walk away from) its Bracers and Ring of Protection. That drops the Molydeus's AC by 7 points and boosts the Balor's by a like amount. Now the Balor can engage the thing in melee. Of course, the Balor won't kill the thing anytime soon by dishing out raw damage (not with fast healing 30), but the lowered AC of the Molydeus means it will be a lot easier to confirm a critical, making its vorpal effect work that much faster, whereas the Molydeus will have a much harder time confirming, and if it is insane at this point might not even attack the Balor every round.
CelestialBarbarian
12-07-06, 09:05 AM You have me very confused here - just what is it that you are trying to compare here? You seem to be switching between "Balor vs Molydeus" and Balor/Molydeus vs party" arguments. I am talking about a balor's strengths against a party, you go off and say how lacklustre they are because of how they would fare against a Molydeus...?:confused:

No offense, but make up your mind for goodness sake.

I started out asking about the molydeus versus the balor and their resepctive CRs, and then Raymond_Luxury_Yacht argued that these were too different things, so the thread deals with them both now.
CelestialBarbarian
12-07-06, 09:08 AM I think the Balor would eventually come out on top. The Balor would use Unholy Aura (as it should always do), which would mean that even if the Molydeus gets through the Balor's SR (about 55% chance per SLA), the Balor will only fail to save on a 1, except for Trap the Soul which would take a 5. The Molydeus can attempt to dispel the aura, but it is roughly 50/50, so it will normally take 2 tries to shut it down, and the Balor can just throw it up again. The Balor's SLAs don't have very good odds either, but they are better than 5%, and it can use Dominate Monster and Insanity at will, so eventually one of them will get through (and once one works he would probably just use the other until that worked as well. And if he has summoned another Balor then the SLAs will work that much faster (though in this case it would certainly be worthwhile for the Molydeus to dispel the other Balor, but it could still expedite things).

One thing to do would be to command the Molydeus to give the Balor (or simply discard and walk away from) its Bracers and Ring of Protection. That drops the Molydeus's AC by 7 points and boosts the Balor's by a like amount. Now the Balor can engage the thing in melee. Of course, the Balor won't kill the thing anytime soon by dishing out raw damage (not with fast healing 30), but the lowered AC of the Molydeus means it will be a lot easier to confirm a critical, making its vorpal effect work that much faster, whereas the Molydeus will have a much harder time confirming, and if it is insane at this point might not even attack the Balor every round.

Yes, that makes sense. And if the balor has room to fly out of reach of the molydeus, the balor can hover there all day until he succeeds in dominating the molydeus.
runestar
12-07-06, 09:11 AM If that's the case, both will just teleport away the moment something goes awry...:P So its really a draw...
CelestialBarbarian
12-07-06, 10:25 AM If that's the case, both will just teleport away the moment something goes awry...:P So its really a draw...

Unless the balor can successfully dominate the molydeus, that does seem like a likely outcome!
Freefall
12-07-06, 05:25 PM Yes, that makes sense. And if the balor has room to fly out of reach of the molydeus, the balor can hover there all day until he succeeds in dominating the molydeus.

The Molydeus can fly as well, though I don't remember the speed of the fly spell off the top of my head, and the Balor can dispel it if he wants (though it might take a couple of tries).

Teleporting is, of course, a very frustrating power that these creatures have. Technically this means a Balor would have difficulty disposing of significantly weaker demons, because they would just teleport as soon as he becomes threatening (of course, the weaker they get, the more likely dominate and implosion are to work, but still...)

The Molydeus is actually the only monster I can recall seeing who can counter such teleport abilities through its innate dimensional anchor ability, which I think is kind of cool (of course, anything with enough pseudo-levels in sorcerer or cleric can do it too, but it is not an automatic power).
CelestialBarbarian
12-07-06, 06:46 PM The Molydeus can fly as well, though I don't remember the speed of the fly spell off the top of my head, and the Balor can dispel it if he wants (though it might take a couple of tries).

Teleporting is, of course, a very frustrating power that these creatures have. Technically this means a Balor would have difficulty disposing of significantly weaker demons, because they would just teleport as soon as he becomes threatening (of course, the weaker they get, the more likely dominate and implosion are to work, but still...)

The Molydeus is actually the only monster I can recall seeing who can counter such teleport abilities through its innate dimensional anchor ability, which I think is kind of cool (of course, anything with enough pseudo-levels in sorcerer or cleric can do it too, but it is not an automatic power).

Good call on the molydeus' fly SLA. I missed that as I was looking through its SLAs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 09:28 PM	A balor has a CR of 20, and a molydeus 19. Is a balor, in your opinion, 50% more powerful than a molydeus? Asked another way, who would win in a fight, in your opinion, and why? :)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-06-06, 09:40 PM	A balor is more dangerous to a party than a molydeus. However, a molydeus could kill a balor.
Morrowner 12-06-06, 09:54 PM	Molydeus can weather the Balor's magical attacksIt hits almost as much and far harder than the Balor in comparison because it will go through the Balor's DR but the Molydeus has the DR to thwart the Balor. He pretty much has to hope for the Vorpal kicking in on a confirmed crit or a botch on a saving throw or otherwise he is screwed.
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 10:20 PM	A balor is more dangerous to a party than a molydeus. However, a molydeus could kill a balor. Interesting. Why and why? :)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-06-06, 10:27 PM	Interesting. Why and why? :) The balor has a higher CR, and ergo is more dangerous to a party. The molydeus has abilities focused on taking tanar'ri out.
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 10:32 PM	Molydeus can weather the Balor's magical attacksIt hits almost as much and far harder than the Balor in comparison because it will go through the Balor's DR but the Molydeus has the DR to thwart the Balor. He pretty much has to hope for the Vorpal kicking in on a confirmed crit or a botch on a saving throw or otherwise he is screwed. Does this mean that you think one or both of them has the wrong CR?
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 10:33 PM	The balor has a higher CR, and ergo is more dangerous to a party. The molydeus has abilities focused on taking tanar'ri out. The whole point of the question it so determine whether the two creatures merit their current CRs because of their relative power. Just assuming that the balor is more threatening to a party assumes away the answer to the question!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-06-06, 10:42 PM	The whole point of the question it so determine whether the two creatures merit their current CRs because of their relative power. Just assuming that the balor is more threatening to a party assumes away the answer to the question! Fine, the balor has more hit points and higher stats, making it a bigger threat.
runestar 12-06-06, 10:45 PM	Crs are not an accurate indicator of how well a monster might fare against another. Pitting a balor against a molydeus is not really apt, as their crs suggest how challenging they are against a typical party, not against each other. I don't think the game designers created a molydeus thinking about how cool it would be to turn other balors into manes. He conceived it based on how well it could screw over a lv19 party.:) If you had to have them fight each other, I would say the molydeus would eventually win. The balor cannot penetrate its dr, and probably cannot deal enough damage to counter fast healing. Meanwhile, the molydeus would in theory, eventually poison the balor enough to turn it into a mane.
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 10:47 PM	Fine, the balor has more hit points and higher stats, making it a bigger threat. Gee, I was hoping this would be a fun thread! :(
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 10:50 PM	Crs are not an accurate indicator of how well a monster might fare against another. Pitting a balor against a molydeus is not really apt, as their crs suggest how challenging they are against a typical party, not against each other. I don't think the game designers created a molydeus thinking about how cool it would be to turn other balors into manes. He conceived it based on how well it could screw over a lv19 party.:) If you had to have them fight each other, I would say the molydeus would eventually win. The balor cannot penetrate its dr, and probably cannot deal enough damage to counter fast healing. Meanwhile, the molydeus would in theory, eventually poison the balor enough to turn it into a mane. That's more what I was looking for. Good old Rune! :) Ok, so the molydeus probably would beat the balor one-on-one because of the molydeus' poison, fast healing and ability to penetrate DR, but why is the balor more dangerous to a typical party?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-06-06, 10:59 PM	That's more what I was looking for. Good old Rune! :) Ok, so the molydeus probably would beat the balor one-on-one because of the molydeus' poison, fast healing and ability to penetrate DR, but why is the balor more dangerous to a typical party? Higher damage and higher stats.
runestar 12-06-06, 11:09 PM	Ok, so the molydeus probably would beat the balor one-on-one because of the molydeus' poison, fast healing and ability to penetrate DR, but why is the balor more dangerous to a typical party? After a quick stat comparison, I would be inclined to say that the balor is deemded more dangerous because it has more powerful SLAs, can summon a more powerful aide(another balor, as compared to a molydeus' marilith), and its death throes ability. These are likely to have a greater impact in battle than dancing weapons, a potent poison attack and lightning bolt/telekinesis SLAs...:P
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 11:14 PM	After a quick stat comparison, I would be inclined to say that the balor is deemded more dangerous because it has more powerful SLAs, can summon a more powerful aide(another balor, as compared to a molydeus' marilith), and its death throes ability. These are likely to have a greater impact in battle than dancing weapons, a potent poison attack and lightning bolt/telekinesis SLAs...:P Couldn't the balor just stand off and blast the molydeus with spell-like abilities and defeat it that way?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-06-06, 11:16 PM	Couldn't the balor just stand off and blast the molydeus with spell-like abilities and defeat it that way? How many of the balor's SLAs actually work on a molydeus. I'm guessing almost none.
CelestialBarbarian 12-06-06, 11:31 PM	How many of the balor's SLAs actually work on a molydeus. I'm guessing almost none. Actually I'm looking at the balor and it doesn't have such great SLAs. Once a day it can do a firestorm and an implosion, and it might be able to do some extra damage with telekenesis. I suppose that the balor could just hover out of range and keep hitting the molydeus with telekenisis. I was thinking of the pit fiend with a meteor swarm, three quickened fireballs, and unlimited regular fireballs per day. Did you know that the molydeus actually has higher SR than the balor--30 v. 28? It also has a higher AC 40 v. 35. I'm starting to wonder if the balor really does represent a bigger threat to a party than a molydeus.
Return of the Flumph 12-07-06, 02:47 AM	Balors are specialized at killing adventurers. They are not especially geared toward fighting other demons. Molydeus are specialized at killing other demons. They are not especially geared toward fighting adventurers. Therefore, a balor is more challenging to a party of humanoids than a molydeus, but a molydeus would still beat the balor. Rock paper scissors.
CelestialBarbarian 12-07-06, 03:22 AM	Balors are specialized at killing adventurers. They are not especially geared toward fighting other demons. Molydeus are specialized at killing other demons. They are not especially geared toward fighting adventurers. Therefore, a balor is more challenging to a party of humanoids than a molydeus, but a molydeus would still beat the balor. Rock paper scissors. What about a balor makes it specialized at killing adventurers?
runestar 12-07-06, 03:29 AM	What about a balor makes it specialized at killing adventurers? More potent SLAs, death throes, ability to summon another balor...:D
CelestialBarbarian 12-07-06, 03:33 AM	More potent SLAs, death throes, ability to summon another balor...:D The balor's SLAs aren't that good, as I observed above. Of course, one failed save against the balor's dominate monster, and the molydeus is finished. :)
runestar 12-07-06, 03:43 AM	You have me very confused here - just what is it that you are trying to compare here? You seem to be switching between "Balor vs Molydeus" and Balor/Molydeus vs party" arguments. I am talking about a balor's strengths against a party, you go off and say how lacklustre they are because of how they would fare against a Molydeus...?:confused: No offense, but make up your mind for goodness sake.
Freefall 12-07-06, 04:15 AM	I think the Balor would eventually come out on top. The Balor would use Unholy Aura (as it should always do), which would mean that even if the Molydeus gets through the Balor's SR (about 55% chance per SLA), the Balor will only fail to save on a 1, except for Trap the Soul which would take a 5. The Molydeus can attempt to dispel the aura, but it is roughly 50/50, so it will normally take 2 tries to shut it down, and the Balor can just throw it up again. The Balor's SLAs don't have very good odds either, but they are better than 5%, and it can use Dominate Monster and Insanity at will, so eventually one of them will get through (and once one works he would probably just use the other until that worked as well. And if he has summoned another Balor then the SLAs will work that much faster (though in this case it would certainly be worthwhile for the Molydeus to dispel the other Balor, but it could still expedite things). One thing to do would be to command the Molydeus to give the Balor (or simply discard and walk away from) its Bracers and Ring of Protection. That drops the Molydeus's AC by 7 points and boosts the Balor's by a like amount. Now the Balor can engage the thing in melee. Of course, the Balor won't kill the thing anytime soon by dishing out raw damage (not with fast healing 30), but the lowered AC of the Molydeus means it will be a lot easier to confirm a critical, making its vorpal effect work that much faster, whereas the Molydeus will have a much harder time confirming, and if it is insane at this point might not even attack the Balor every round.
CelestialBarbarian 12-07-06, 09:05 AM	You have me very confused here - just what is it that you are trying to compare here? You seem to be switching between "Balor vs Molydeus" and Balor/Molydeus vs party" arguments. I am talking about a balor's strengths against a party, you go off and say how lacklustre they are because of how they would fare against a Molydeus...?:confused: No offense, but make up your mind for goodness sake. I started out asking about the molydeus versus the balor and their resepctive CRs, and then Raymond_Luxury_Yacht argued that these were too different things, so the thread deals with them both now.
CelestialBarbarian 12-07-06, 09:08 AM	I think the Balor would eventually come out on top. The Balor would use Unholy Aura (as it should always do), which would mean that even if the Molydeus gets through the Balor's SR (about 55% chance per SLA), the Balor will only fail to save on a 1, except for Trap the Soul which would take a 5. The Molydeus can attempt to dispel the aura, but it is roughly 50/50, so it will normally take 2 tries to shut it down, and the Balor can just throw it up again. The Balor's SLAs don't have very good odds either, but they are better than 5%, and it can use Dominate Monster and Insanity at will, so eventually one of them will get through (and once one works he would probably just use the other until that worked as well. And if he has summoned another Balor then the SLAs will work that much faster (though in this case it would certainly be worthwhile for the Molydeus to dispel the other Balor, but it could still expedite things). One thing to do would be to command the Molydeus to give the Balor (or simply discard and walk away from) its Bracers and Ring of Protection. That drops the Molydeus's AC by 7 points and boosts the Balor's by a like amount. Now the Balor can engage the thing in melee. Of course, the Balor won't kill the thing anytime soon by dishing out raw damage (not with fast healing 30), but the lowered AC of the Molydeus means it will be a lot easier to confirm a critical, making its vorpal effect work that much faster, whereas the Molydeus will have a much harder time confirming, and if it is insane at this point might not even attack the Balor every round. Yes, that makes sense. And if the balor has room to fly out of reach of the molydeus, the balor can hover there all day until he succeeds in dominating the molydeus.
runestar 12-07-06, 09:11 AM	If that's the case, both will just teleport away the moment something goes awry...:P So its really a draw...
CelestialBarbarian 12-07-06, 10:25 AM	If that's the case, both will just teleport away the moment something goes awry...:P So its really a draw... Unless the balor can successfully dominate the molydeus, that does seem like a likely outcome!
Freefall 12-07-06, 05:25 PM	Yes, that makes sense. And if the balor has room to fly out of reach of the molydeus, the balor can hover there all day until he succeeds in dominating the molydeus. The Molydeus can fly as well, though I don't remember the speed of the fly spell off the top of my head, and the Balor can dispel it if he wants (though it might take a couple of tries). Teleporting is, of course, a very frustrating power that these creatures have. Technically this means a Balor would have difficulty disposing of significantly weaker demons, because they would just teleport as soon as he becomes threatening (of course, the weaker they get, the more likely dominate and implosion are to work, but still...) The Molydeus is actually the only monster I can recall seeing who can counter such teleport abilities through its innate dimensional anchor ability, which I think is kind of cool (of course, anything with enough pseudo-levels in sorcerer or cleric can do it too, but it is not an automatic power).
CelestialBarbarian 12-07-06, 06:46 PM	The Molydeus can fly as well, though I don't remember the speed of the fly spell off the top of my head, and the Balor can dispel it if he wants (though it might take a couple of tries). Teleporting is, of course, a very frustrating power that these creatures have. Technically this means a Balor would have difficulty disposing of significantly weaker demons, because they would just teleport as soon as he becomes threatening (of course, the weaker they get, the more likely dominate and implosion are to work, but still...) The Molydeus is actually the only monster I can recall seeing who can counter such teleport abilities through its innate dimensional anchor ability, which I think is kind of cool (of course, anything with enough pseudo-levels in sorcerer or cleric can do it too, but it is not an automatic power). Good call on the molydeus' fly SLA. I missed that as I was looking through its SLAs.