Post/Author/DateTime	Post
suckerpunch 04-23-04, 04:42 PM	placed in a neutral setting... which of the two would win if made to battle? i'm gonna go with the it fiend.....cause their bad a$$
Daemeon_Blackheart 04-23-04, 08:09 PM	Well my friend its all up to the dice rolling. Like for example I was playing a 2nd edtion adventure with my dad as the dm and we were fighting a balrog. It failed its SR and got fried by a lightiining bolt. then my char smacked it and killed it. Now if you really want to know why don't you set it up yoursefl? that way you know whihc one is better
Freefall 04-23-04, 09:03 PM	Did you mean to type Balor, or were you actually fighting a converted balrog? If it was a Balor, I'm a bit confused about how that fight went, since Balors have always been immune to electricity (all tanar'ri are). They were also weaker in 2E. Anyway, I think a Balor might win in the end, mainly because neither can inflict a lot of damage to each other, so if the Balor just goes full melee then you can figure that by round 20 his vorpal weapon will activate and the Pit Fiend is dead. Otherwise, between their DR, SR, saves, resistances, and immunities, a fight between the two could last for a really, really long time. Maybe the Pit Fiend would win in the end. Their slightly better attributes and regeneration and unlimited fireballs plus meteor swarm (if it gets passed SR) might tip the fight in its favor, despite the Balors higher HP and HD. And if it hasn't used up its Wish yet, that could help a lot (I'd wish for an epic good aligned cold iron weapon or something; using it as an attack on the Balor would be a bad idea since Wish is subject to SR). Overall I'd root for the Pit Fiend, but that might just be because I like Pit Fiends better.
NightScreamer20 04-23-04, 09:13 PM	What good is a Vorpal Longsword and a Whip when you are wrapped in the tail of a Pit Fiend who is still able to use the rest of his attacks? Ya that's right Balor *pimp-slap* Pit Fiend pwnz j00...can I say that on these boards?
lotterybucks 04-23-04, 10:18 PM	I've played this fight out before... balor won two times out of three, though it could've been luckier rolls.
primemover003 04-23-04, 10:37 PM	Originally posted by NightScreamer20 What good is a Vorpal Longsword and a Whip when you are wrapped in the tail of a Pit Fiend who is still able to use the rest of his attacks? Ya that's right Balor *pimp-slap* Pit Fiend pwnz j00...can I say that on these boards? The Balor has a better grapple score??? This is almost too close to look at just on paper... Many (sp) abilities of both fiends are useless due to immunity to fire of both... SR-- balor has to roll 12, PF has to roll 10... close DR is gonna make this fight last a while... but the Balor's stat block in the SRD has a typo... STR 35 is +12 to damage, so how is it's sword damage 2d6+8??? It should be (2d6+13/19-20) But the PF will hit more often than the Balor, almost everytime if rolls above 7... But the whips reach will factor in... put the PF on the floor the +4 from prone and the -4 to dex from being entangled helps the Balor hit more (AC 36 for PF/ +4 to hit for Balor). The Balors Quickened spell-like ability is better... I'd bludgeon the pitfiend with stones every round using the violent thrust option of TK. Many (sp) abilities of both fiends are useless due to immunity to fire of both... But Dominate Monster and Implosion put the Demon lord on top in this category! The balor is both faster and more manuverable in the air...
Freefall 04-24-04, 12:36 AM	Oops, I forgot that Balors are immune to fire now. They never were in earlier editions (though it does make sense, what with the aura of fire and all; always wondered why Pit Fiends didn't have it though). That makes the a lot of the Pit Fiends best attacks useless. Still, if the Pit Fiend has its wish ability it can wish for a weapon that will get through the Balors DR, which would help quite a bit. But without the wish, yeah, it looks much worse for the Pit Fiend now. Still, if they decide to melee each other, the Pit Fiend looks like he'll do a little more damage per round than the Balor (the Balor's whip can't hurt the Pit Fiend, and his 3rd and 4th sword attacks won't hit very often), and the Pit Fiend has regeneration. These together might make up for its lower HP.
NightScreamer20 04-24-04, 01:09 AM	Don't forget the Pit Fiend's Mass Hold Monster which the Balor has a 40% of failing his will save... After knocking his HP down a bit he can the use his Power Word Stun...Maybe if he has to in the air a Meteor Swarm attack, no Fire damage to the Balor but up to at least 8d6 bludgeoning... Sure the Balor as Dominate Monster, but the Pit Fiend has the lesser 25% chance of being affected. Not bad eh? Then again it might come to a draw in the end. Even if the Pit Fiend does defeat the Balor he will be destroyed by the massive damage of the Death Throe...ya know because I bet by the end he'll be close to dead...maybe 25-30 HP at the maximum...
Freefall 04-24-04, 04:44 AM	In 2E it specified that a Balor only explodes if it is slain in the Abyss. In 3E it isn't nearly as specific (as is the case with almost all creatures in 3E in one way or another), however, you can still make an argument for it because the description specifically uses the word "killed," and since a Balor technically can only be killed in the Abyss (unless they also changed this in 3E), then the Death Throes effect cannot happen anywhere except the Abyss, so the Pit Fiend doesn't have to worry about them, since this fight is presumably somewhere else (which would technically mean that neither of them could actually kill the other, but they could still be defeated, and if they are they have to stay in their home plane and recuperate for quite a while). Of course, even if they were in the Abyss, that would just mean that when the Balor explodes, the Pit Fiend is sent back to Baator. The Balor is dead, the Pit Fiend isn't. Still works out.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-24-04, 05:06 AM	*wry grin* "Whoever the Yugoloth who set up the fight on 'neutral ground' had pre-decided who would win?" But on a more serious note, on a one on one fight, I'd have to go with the Pit Fiend, but only by the barest of margins.
Mirtek 04-24-04, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by Freefall and since a Balor technically can only be killed in the Abyss (unless they also changed this in 3E), An outsider who's on annother plane because of being summoned can not be slain there, only send back to his home plane. An outsider who's on annother plane because he was called or came through a gate or with planeshift can be slain there and don't goes back to his homeplane when killed.
Dackad 04-24-04, 05:01 PM	I'd give the fight to the Pit Fiend. He has freakin' regeneration that the Balor will be hard pressed to get by (implosion), better AC, overall better stats, better SR. The Balor, I think might beat the Pit Fiend down a couple of times, but the Pit Fiend will just keep on getting back up and sooner or later, he'll win.
Freefall 04-24-04, 07:33 PM	It looks like overall the Pit Fiend has a slight advantage (damn strait; Baatezu kick ass :D). The problem though, is that unless something unusual happens, the Balor still has a vorpal sword, so statistically he only needs to live long enough to swing it 20 times before it activates and instantly kills the Pit Fiend (theoretically this could happen on his first melee swing), and I don't think the Pit Fiend would be able to affect it from a distance very much once its Meteor Swarm is gone (which won't do a whole lot anyway). That's why I hate insta-kill effects. Always have, ever since the first video game RPG I played ('course, in video games they typically always work for the bad guys but never work for your players, unless what you use it on is so weak that you could have killed it in one hit anyway).
Sproik 04-24-04, 09:16 PM	One thing to remember - a Balor can use gate to summon another Balor with no chance of failure. A Pit Fiend - can't. I strongly suspect the Balor would be ruining the Pit Fiend anyway, even without this considerable advantage.
(Psi)SeveredHead 04-25-04, 01:42 AM	The balor has a vorpal sword, which ignores regeneration. However, that's depending on luck. Both have very good saves... the pit fiend has better AC but fewer hit points. Oi! The pit fiend can make himself immune to domination with his unholy aura but the balor can use greater dispel magic at will. All the good tactics take time to set up, so the other guy can just start ripping in. Honestly, I think it boils down to tactics. Assuming we were just doing it for story reasons, the pit fiend probably wins just because he's got better Dex and Int :) More likely, both would have allies. The balor's allies are less reliable, but he has more and they're more powerful.
suckerpunch 04-25-04, 06:01 PM	let us assume that the playing field is a 500'x500' square. the only structures are box shaped oblects of various sizes place over the field in random order. both opponents have full use of all abilities (the reason their cr's are the same i would assume) the field is incased in a wall of force (or dome) however the only way to leave is through the death of their opponent....assuming that it is permanent death and both opponents are aware of said fact. if allies are to be summoned they are to know that fact as well....they are stuck there until the opposing team is dead. there we have it...if anyone else would like to add any other neutral obsticles or conditions please do so...keeping in mind not to favor either opponent.... if it hinders one it must hinder both equally ...if it helps one it must help the other etc. enjoy the show