Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yetti13 06-14-06, 07:45 PM	This is something that I have always been curious about. Who would win in a fight a balor or a pit fiend. I wanted my PCs to walk in on a duel between a balor and a pit fiend so i'm gonna leave it up to you guys to decide.
Kresalak 06-14-06, 07:49 PM	Depends on if the Balor got lucky with his Vorpal sword. That and Implosion are the only things he has that can get past the Pit Fiend's Regeneration.
Kuraito 06-14-06, 08:07 PM	Well, this fight, while iconic, is mostly impossible. The defences of the Balor and the Pit Feind are mostly full proof. DR is certainly going to apply, which blunts Melee a great deal. They are both immune to Fire, so most of there more powerful spells and abilities are negated. Both are evil, there goes the rest. I'm not going to count wish, as its once a YEAR, but if Wish is in, then that helps the pit feind alot. SR and High Saves makes any spell based attack mostly fruitless. The only real way for the Balor to win without relaying ENTIRELY on luck is to beat the Pit Feind down, then Power Word Stun him to keep him forever stunned and just keep whailing on him. But Regeneration prevents him from droping the Pit Feind to low enough HP as his damage is non lethal and SR applys (The balor needs a CL check of 12 to beat the feinds SR, the Pit Feind needs a roll of 10). This fight is likely going to be just a long bloody war, and its really based on luck. If the Balor can manage to Vorpal or Implode the Feind, he wins, otherwise, the Pit Feind wins, because his melee isn't as blunted as the Balors(Immunity to Fire really hurts him). He gets one shot to implode which means he has to roll 12 or higher and the feind has to roll 7 or lower to fail the save. In short, less then 20% chance of it killing the feind. So, the only real question is, in this long war of attrition, of these people just beating on each others massive HP totals, through AC, DR and Regeneration, can the Balor roll a 20 and confirm the crit? I think, playing the odds, Yes, he will. Because this fight is going a LLLOONNGG time. Winner and STILL undisputed champion of the lower planes: JUZAM DJINN!...I mean..BALROG! Crap, I mean, BAAAALLLLOOOORRRR! The kids love him! Also, i didn't count summoning, cause, really, no, I did enough. Don't ask me for MORE ok?!
utilitarian 06-14-06, 09:10 PM	Pit Fiend has poison though.... err.. but are Tan'ari immune to poison? I can't remember.
Kuraito 06-14-06, 09:14 PM	both balors and pit feinds are immune to posion, I checked. The Pit Feinds disease would do through, but when I said long fight, i didn't mean 1d4 DAYS.
runestar 06-14-06, 10:53 PM	Well, in theory, it's 2 balors against 1, if you consider the balor's ability to summon another balor. ;) I suppose they could just keep spamming charm spells while the fiend spams mass hold monster of his own, and wait for a failed sr followed by a failed save. :P Or in theory, the pit fiend could use wish to create a custom weapon that overcomes the balor's dr. Even if the pit fiend won, don't forget the balor's death throes ability, which cannot be resisted. :D
Kenzuki 06-14-06, 11:09 PM	Who cares? i'm just going to kill which ever one survives.
StarDrifter 06-15-06, 01:06 AM	The Balor has implosion and a vorpal sword, but the pit fiend has improved grab/constrict and mass hold monster. It pretty much comes down to the luck of the dice.
Ront Iron-Roar 06-15-06, 01:28 AM	Hmmmmm neither can escape or hope to stay in ranged combat long enough to really do anything. If they use teleport they'll just be chasing each other by teleporting again and again. The Balor can use telekenesis to throw objects at the Pit Fiend and even as a free action. As well, a Pitfiend could potentiall use the enviroment by blowing up the cieling with a quickened fireball and then attacking the Balor after the collapse. As well, the battle if it came to Melee would most likely come down to a grappe and in either case the Pit fiend will win. It has far more natural attacks and a constrict ability. Spell-like-abilities are screwed here and the Pit Fiend's regeneration will ensue the Pit Fiend continues to keep going. The Balor can't use the Longsword in a grapple so he's stuck with slam attacks and a gore attack I believe. But, his inability to pierce damage reduction means he'll be doing less damage then the Pit Fiends wide range of them. So in the end you'll have a dead Balor and a rapidly healing but injured Pit Fiend.
teclis 06-15-06, 01:35 AM	So in the end you'll have a dead Balor and a rapidly healing but injured Pit Fiend. balor can teleport at will, the pit fiend can't keep him in a grapple.
utilitarian 06-15-06, 02:10 AM	Balor will have an extremely difficult time using a SLA in a grapple with a pit fiend on him.
Lord_Canius 06-15-06, 02:18 AM	Balor will have an extremely difficult time using a SLA in a grapple with a pit fiend on him. Concentration like a mother, not to mention SLA's are unrestricted, being that you dont have to do somatic components to activate them. So :P .
Flame_Drake 06-15-06, 02:46 AM	Bahhhh! Your all taking acount for the crunch but not the fluff. As has been pointed out, both a Balor and a Pit Fiend are about even in magic and physical strength, hence a long war of attrition. What about the mental stats?? While I prefer demons over devils, I'd like to think that the Pit Fiend would eventually outsmart the Balor and win. Drake
Lord_Canius 06-15-06, 02:57 AM	My vote still goes with Balor. Pit Devil may be smarter, but you can't beat that pure, unadultered fury that the Balor just exhudes from every pore.
Drachasor 06-15-06, 03:40 AM	The Pit Fiend wins easily. The Vorpal Blade of a Balor cannot kill a Pit Fiend. Afterall, regeneration will heal the head being cut off since the vorpal sword does not deal lethal damage to the Pit Fiend (look up regeneration--in fact it seems likely that the Pit Fiend's head cannot be removed by the vorpal sword, but the text isn't clear). Since the Balor can only inflict a handful of hitpoints on the Pit Fiend, the Pit Fiend will easily win. In fact, the Pit Fiend can use Mass Hold Monster each round on the Balor. He has a 35% chance of success, so this, on average, will take 6 rounds (given the roughly 50% chance to overcome SR) to stop the Balor for one round. The Balor can try to extend this if the DM lets it have an action on its turn (for Dispel Magic). It's harder if the DM lets it have a save and then have another save immediately (which I don't think is how Hold Person works). Anyhow, when the Balor is paralyzed and the Pit Fiend makes a coup de grace and kills the Balor with a bite--4d6+6+18 (Power Attack), auto crits doing an average of 76-15=61 damage, so the Balor needs to make a DC 71 on average. This requires a natural 20 on the save--it will hardly ever happen. The Pit Fiend can repeat this process as much as necessary to kill the Balor if he fails on the first attempt, and if the Balor summons help then he can use the Mass Hold Monster on everyone at once, killing them one at a time (and he can take the AOOs since they do negligible damage to him). If the Pit Fiend ever gets close to being in trouble he can teleport around for a few dozen rounds and he'll be back up to full HP. The best strategy for the Balor is to run away. -Drachasor
Molitor 06-15-06, 04:14 AM	The Pit Fiend wins easily. The Vorpal Blade of a Balor cannot kill a Pit Fiend. Afterall, regeneration will heal the head being cut off since the vorpal sword does not deal lethal damage to the Pit Fiend (look up regeneration--in fact it seems likely that the Pit Fiend's head cannot be removed by the vorpal sword, but the text isn't clear). Since the Balor can only inflict a handful of hitpoints on the Pit Fiend, the Pit Fiend will easily win. In fact, the Pit Fiend can use Mass Hold Monster each round on the Balor. He has a 35% chance of success, so this, on average, will take 6 rounds (given the roughly 50% chance to overcome SR) to stop the Balor for one round. The Balor can try to extend this if the DM lets it have an action on its turn (for Dispel Magic). It's harder if the DM lets it have a save and then have another save immediately (which I don't think is how Hold Person works). Anyhow, when the Balor is paralyzed and the Pit Fiend makes a coup de grace and kills the Balor with a bite--4d6+6+18 (Power Attack), auto crits doing an average of 76-15=61 damage, so the Balor needs to make a DC 71 on average. This requires a natural 20 on the save--it will hardly ever happen. The Pit Fiend can repeat this process as much as necessary to kill the Balor if he fails on the first attempt, and if the Balor summons help then he can use the Mass Hold Monster on everyone at once, killing them one at a time (and he can take the AOOs since they do negligible damage to him). If the Pit Fiend ever gets close to being in trouble he can teleport around for a few dozen rounds and he'll be back up to full HP. The best strategy for the Balor is to run away. -DrachasorYep, that's my conclusion as well.
StarDrifter 06-15-06, 04:29 AM	Also the pit fiend is more likely to set up ambushes, surprise attacks, etc, beacuse it's lawful evil rather than chaotic evil, making it more likely to try out all kinds of unconventional warfare tactics rather than just run in and start swinging. Kinda like the battle hardened soldier vs equally battle hardened barbarian warrior thing. The barbarian has more hitpoints and damage, but the soldier has a lot more tricks up his sleeve.
Kuraito 06-15-06, 04:34 AM	Uh...no. Vorpal ABSOLUTLY kills a pit feind, regeneration does NOTHING against it. Vorpal takes off a creatures head, period. Regeneration doesn't keep you from not dying when you lose your head(pun). Also, I'd like to point out, I was wrong. For implosion, the pit feind has to roll 3 or lower to die, because I forgot Unholy Aura, which just gives a static +4 deflection to AC and +4 resistance to save, which is not taken into account in the base block. The Balors will save becomes +23. The chance of being paralized by the hold monster is 50% for the pit feind to get past SR and a 15% chance for the balor to fail the save. This is significantly lower then a 35% chance, its about the same as the balors first Implosion working and its not much better then the chances of the Balor hitting his vorpal (5% for the nat 20, 55% for the confirm). Also add in that the Mass is a SLA and much more limited then a simple Melee attack, and the fact the pit feind needs the full round action to coup de grace, which means hes within reach anyway, and that the balor has a 5% chance to survive, this stratagy is far from full proof. Further more, the Pit Feind is staying within reach of the balor to follow up with a coup de grace, so the balor can full attack and gets FOUR shots of hitting his vorpal against the Pit Fiends 1 every round. The Balor still has the edge, in that his instant kill is easier, harder to disrupt and just as likely to work then the Pit Feinds, infact, it might be more so, thanks to getting 4 shots at it a round.
Freakboy 06-15-06, 08:52 AM	I think the deciding factor in this battle is the Pit Fiend's regeneration. The Balor is just going to have a much harder time inflicting lethal damage to the Pit Fiend than the Pit Fiend will to the Balor. Personally, I think the regeneration ability is overpowered when it requires an alignment component to be overcome. Very few spells deal alignment based damage and any evil creature at all is not going to have a good aligned weapon they can use. Regeneration is also good against all types of energy attacks since it is only overcome by good aligned spells, so that really limits the tactical options to death effects, and effects not specifically prohibited by the regeneration effect (I think the Vorpal Sword would work against a regenerater all though I don't know that for sure).
kintire 06-15-06, 09:01 AM	Doesn't the Balor have Tp without error as an SLA? They don't require somatic components. He won't be that bothered by being Held. He'll just teleport away until it wears off.
lukelightning 06-15-06, 09:24 AM	The vorpal sword would not kill the Pit Fiend. According to the regeneration power "An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage." The sword does not deliver lethal damage to the pit fiend, therefore the insta-kill effect of the vorpal won't work.
Freakboy 06-15-06, 09:44 AM	The vorpal sword would not kill the Pit Fiend. According to the regeneration power "An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage." The sword does not deliver lethal damage to the pit fiend, therefore the insta-kill effect of the vorpal won't work. In that case, I say the Pit Fiend would win. Its regeneration is just too much to overcome for the Balor in 9 out of 10 fights. Personally, forgetting this specific example for a minute, I don't understand why regeneration has to be a non-lethal effect anyway. Fast Healing would provide the sort of "quick to heal" effect that monsters that have regeneration typically have, but make it more likely that a party of adventurers is likely to have whatever it takes to bring a creature down. For flavor, you could have the fast healing not work on wounds inflicted by the weapon or energy type that is the creatures weakness (e.g. wounds caused by fire or acid to a troll can not be healed with Fast Healing). To me that makes more sense, because the whole non lethal thing can make a creature well nigh impossible to kill. Our high level party where I am a player fought a pit fiend once and got annihilated because we didn't have any holy weapons. Our Cleric cast align weapon on what she could but our Sorcerer was utterly nerfed because nothing he could use, including disintegrate, could hurt the Pit Fiend (He was a blaster sorcerer didn't have banishment or anything like that in his spell list). Anyway, JMVHO that Regeneration is an overpowered ability.
babysamurai 06-15-06, 09:50 AM	My money's on the Pit Fiend. If nothing else, because he's got more panache.
lukelightning 06-15-06, 09:54 AM	Actually what would really happen is they would fight for a while in a ferocious battle, but at one point they would lock eyes and fall in love...romantic music swells, they kiss. Pit Fiend, being Lawful, insists on getting married, so Balor proposes. Their love moves all the demons and devils to put aside their differences and join together in brotherhood. Then they'd combine their armies and invade the heavens.
babysamurai 06-15-06, 10:00 AM	Actually what would really happen is they would fight for a while in a ferocious battle, but at one point they would lock eyes and fall in love...romantic music swells, they kiss. Pit Fiend, being Lawful, insists on getting married, so Balor proposes. Their love moves all the demons and devils to put aside their differences and join together in brotherhood. Then they'd combine their armies and invade the heavens. Yes, but which one is the "man" in the life partnership?
runestar 06-15-06, 10:08 AM	Both have teleport at will, so I doubt any of them will be able to get in the killing blow...the moment one falls within a certain threshold of hp, he simply zips away to lick his wounds. At best, I think it would end in a draw.
lukelightning 06-15-06, 10:14 AM	Yes, but which one is the "man" in the life partnership? Don't assume balors and pit fiends are male; what, you think mariliths, succubi, and erinyes are the only female fiends? Bah. I think half of all balors are female, likewise half of all bone devils are female. Or perhaps they just lack sex entirely.
Mr.Black 06-15-06, 10:16 AM	Just to put some things into perspective: The balor and pit fiend will always have Unholy Aura up. The improved grab ability of the pit fiend only works on creatures one size category smaller than it (medium size). The balor can get past the pit fiend's DR....if he lets go of the whip and uses his sword two-handed. The balor has a strength of 35, which means it gets 2d6+19 when using it two-handed. I'm sure the pit fiend would try to teleport to find a suitable weapon, too. The balor has use magic device, which should not be underestimated. This means that it has access to wands, scrolls, and even staffs. Even a measly wand of cure light wounds means it could teleport away to heal itself. If the balor did manage to drop the pit fiend, the pit fiend's regeneration can be beaten if the balor keeps the pit fiend down long enough to suffocate it with something.
babysamurai 06-15-06, 10:23 AM	Don't assume balors and pit fiends are male; what, you think mariliths, succubi, and erinyes are the only female fiends? Bah. I think half of all balors are female, likewise half of all bone devils are female. Or perhaps they just lack sex entirely. I meant "man" in the figurative non-gender specific way in regards to a "relationship". Which one's the "taker"?
pileobone 06-15-06, 10:30 AM	Actually, regardless of which is smarter, both Balors and Pit Fiends are highly intelligent. It would make sense to me that being embroiled in a hideous blood war since before many races where only a gleam in their god's eye, that they would learn to carry around Holy, or Good aligned weapons. Sure being evil, they would take a couple temporary negative levels, but thats a small price to pay for smiting ones sworn enemy. Both of them have over a 20 intelligence, surely if they knew they where going to be encountering a foe with Regeneration/good yadda yadda, they would have a weapon like that on hand. So, for a properly equipped fight, it would just come down to the superior melee fighter. I don't feel like doing a comprehensive physical analysis, so I leave it to you. However, in my secret heart I must agree with lukelightning, they should fall in love and have hideous babies uglier than sin itself.
lukelightning 06-15-06, 10:32 AM	Which one's the "taker"? Well, Pit Fiend is the one who stays at home and takes care of the little half-fiend-fiends (yes, it is possible! The children are balors and pit fiends with the half-fiend template!) while Balor goes out to work. Trouble brews when Balor keeps losing his job and often stays out late and comes home drunk on unholy water.
pileobone 06-15-06, 10:33 AM	I meant "man" in the figurative non-gender specific way in regards to a "relationship". Which one's the "taker"?Gee I wonder? Which one carries around the big flaming Vorpal lightning bolt? Hmmmm, foreshadowing?
Lord_Canius 06-15-06, 11:56 AM	However, in my secret heart I must agree with lukelightning, they should fall in love and have hideous babies uglier than sin itself. That opportunity is too good to pass up. I'm making that.
savant_warlord13 06-15-06, 12:00 PM	has no one thought of actually staging a fight? get two people of equal skill together, have each control one, and see who wins
babysamurai 06-15-06, 12:06 PM	Gee I wonder? Which one carries around the big flaming Vorpal lightning bolt? Hmmmm, foreshadowing? Yeah, you're right - the sword (phallic) is a bit of cheap symbolism.
Drachasor 06-15-06, 12:45 PM	I meant to post this some hours ago, but the forums were down: Uh...no. Vorpal ABSOLUTLY kills a pit feind, regeneration does NOTHING against it. Vorpal takes off a creatures head, period. Regeneration doesn't keep you from not dying when you lose your head(pun). I said to look up regeneration if you didn't believe me *sigh* From the SRD, under Abilities and Conditions, the last part of regeneration: An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage. A Vorpal Sword does not threaten the Pit Fiend with death since the weapon, the one used by the Balor, cannot deal lethal damage to the Pit Fiend. Since the weapon lists no other effects in addition to the vorpal quality, and since regeneration simply makes the Pit Fiend immune to the head removal, the sword would only deal normal critical damage (as subdual, of course). Hmm, your comments though do have a point. It would probably be better for the Pit Fiend to attack the Balor until it had 150 or fewer hitpoints. Then a Power Word Stun would make the rest of the job easy. Again, if it gets too injured the Pit Fiend can teleport around until it has fully healed and remain untouchable by the Balor -- this would only take a couple dozen rounds at the most, but since the Balor would be dealing relatively little damage it probably wouldn't be needed. Also, since the Balor has a pretty low AC (35 compared to the 40 of the Pit Fiend) and they have similar primary attack numbers (though the Pit Fiend has more attacks close to this number of 30), it is going to be pretty easy for the Pit Fiend to hit the Balor and harder for the Balor to hit the Pit Fiend. The Pit Fiend can do power attacks to up his damage quite a bit though, and the Balor can do much less of this if he wants to hit on his itterative attacks. Again, Pit Fiend wins easily. -Drachasor
Thiez 06-15-06, 04:10 PM	I once made them fight each other. 't was so easy. Had the Pit Fiend disarm the Balor, than slap him to death. Even the death throes of the Balor didn't kill the Pit Fiend, because he hardly lost any hp. 't was boring.
Kuraito 06-15-06, 07:28 PM	Vorpal does kill a pit feind. Vorpal is not an instant kill effect, indeed, there are plenty of monsters that can survive it. Vorpal doesn't Kill the creature, it removes its head, no more, no less. Nothing can stop this Head removal process other then NOT having a head. The only questions considered by Vorpal is "Does this have a head?" and "Can it survive without the head?" It is NOT an instant kill effect, like a Coup de Grace. Its a "You don't have a head anymore...are you still alive?" effect.
celtredleg 06-15-06, 09:14 PM	Vorpal does kill a pit feind. Vorpal is not an instant kill effect, indeed, there are plenty of monsters that can survive it. Vorpal doesn't Kill the creature, it removes its head, no more, no less. Nothing can stop this Head removal process other then NOT having a head. The only questions considered by Vorpal is "Does this have a head?" and "Can it survive without the head?" It is NOT an instant kill effect, like a Coup de Grace. Its a "You don't have a head anymore...are you still alive?" effect. Wrong. It does not remove the head, as it is only subdual. Read the entrys on both vorpal and regen. Nothing in the vorpal writeup lets it bypass regen. In fact it says clearly "most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off." Most, not all. Vorpal is powerful, but it is not a kill all. Orge mages for instance, have 10 minutes to reatach thier head if it is severed, or die. So vorpal mayu get them, but it takes time. Other regeners such as trolls are not bothered by it. Pit Fiends are in this catagory.
Vedic Cold 06-15-06, 10:05 PM	From the SRD description of Regeneration: Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached. A severed head would of course be a severed body part, and thus if a pit fiend had its head removed by a weapon that deals it nonlethal damage, it could in fact simply reach down, pick up its own head, and reattach it to the neck. Try this on your players with a regenerating creature sometime. The first time one of my groups beat a troll into unconsiousness and then sliced off its head, the look on their faces when it came to a few seconds later and just sort of squelched its head back on was priceless.
Kuraito 06-15-06, 10:34 PM	Wrong. It does not remove the head, as it is only subdual. Read the entrys on both vorpal and regen. Nothing in the vorpal writeup lets it bypass regen. In fact it says clearly "most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off." Most, not all. Vorpal is powerful, but it is not a kill all. Orge mages for instance, have 10 minutes to reatach thier head if it is severed, or die. So vorpal mayu get them, but it takes time. Other regeners such as trolls are not bothered by it. Pit Fiends are in this catagory. Ok, your not making any sense. First your saying, Hey, it doesn't take the head off. Then, you say, Hey, Pit Feinds don't die from having there head cut off. Pick one. Vorpal is NOT stopped by regeneration because its NOT an instant kill effect, it takes off the head. Nothing, not DR, Regeneration, NOTHING stops a vorpal sword from taking somethings head off, save for one thing, and one thing alone, Not having a head in the first place. If you hit with a vorpal sword as something DR 20/everything, you hit that vorpal, but the DR stops the damage...IT STILL LOSES ITS HEAD. The same thing applys to regeneration. The only way to survive vorpal is to not need a head to survive, and Troll, Ogre Magi, most everything with regeneration is mostly Humaniod in form and alive, which means, hey, guess what, they need heads to survive. What with the head holding their BRAINS and such. No creature is going far without its central nervous system, and they are most certainly not going to pick up there head and reattach it. Undead and constructs, sure, but things with regeneration are ALIVE, hence, need those heads to do things, like tell it to breath and tell its heart to beat.
Vedic Cold 06-15-06, 10:43 PM	Ok, your not making any sense. First your saying, Hey, it doesn't take the head off. Then, you say, Hey, Pit Feinds don't die from having there head cut off. Pick one. Vorpal is NOT stopped by regeneration because its NOT an instant kill effect, it takes off the head. Nothing, not DR, Regeneration, NOTHING stops a vorpal sword from taking somethings head off, save for one thing, and one thing alone, Not having a head in the first place. If you hit with a vorpal sword as something DR 20/everything, you hit that vorpal, but the DR stops the damage...IT STILL LOSES ITS HEAD. The same thing applys to regeneration. The only way to survive vorpal is to not need a head to survive, and Troll, Ogre Magi, most everything with regeneration is mostly Humaniod in form and alive, which means, hey, guess what, they need heads to survive. What with the head holding their BRAINS and such. No creature is going far without its central nervous system, and they are most certainly not going to pick up there head and reattach it. Undead and constructs, sure, but things with regeneration are ALIVE, hence, need those heads to do things, like tell it to breath and tell its heart to beat. You are now attempting to apply real-word science and biology to fantasy creatures that do not exist, and are thus beyond the realm of such logical argument. This is patently absurd. These creatures have an ability called Regeneration. The text for this ability states that if they lose a body part (and one's head is pretty much a body part) as a result of an attack that doesn't do them "lethal" damage, they can regrow or reattach it. It makes no exception for their heads (or any other body part for that matter), and the vorpal ability doesn't specifically state that it ignores regeneration. What you're arguing certainly makes sense from a real-world point-of-view, but it has no foundation in the rules as they are currently stated.
celtredleg 06-15-06, 10:52 PM	Ok, your not making any sense. First your saying, Hey, it doesn't take the head off. Then, you say, Hey, Pit Feinds don't die from having there head cut off. Pick one. Vorpal is NOT stopped by regeneration because its NOT an instant kill effect, it takes off the head. Nothing, not DR, Regeneration, NOTHING stops a vorpal sword from taking somethings head off, save for one thing, and one thing alone, Not having a head in the first place. If you hit with a vorpal sword as something DR 20/everything, you hit that vorpal, but the DR stops the damage...IT STILL LOSES ITS HEAD. The same thing applys to regeneration. The only way to survive vorpal is to not need a head to survive, and Troll, Ogre Magi, most everything with regeneration is mostly Humaniod in form and alive, which means, hey, guess what, they need heads to survive. What with the head holding their BRAINS and such. No creature is going far without its central nervous system, and they are most certainly not going to pick up there head and reattach it. Undead and constructs, sure, but things with regeneration are ALIVE, hence, need those heads to do things, like tell it to breath and tell its heart to beat. Sorry, did not realize you are new to DnD. Who says trolls, or pitfiends have brains?? Or that they are located in thier heads if they have them?? Regen is not an ability that exists in the real world, nor does vorpal. You cant have the power of one, and deny the power of the other. Well, you can, its called house rule. Surviving vorpla is not opinion, it is RAW. If you dont like it, and want to change it in your game, thats fine. But dont try to apply RW biology to magical creatures. You just wind up looking silly.
celtredleg 06-15-06, 11:17 PM	Mybe the problem is that I used quotes, and did not cite the source. For that I appologize. The refernece to the Ogre mage is taken from the monster manuel, page 200, 2nd column, 4th paragraph. It is not my opinion that an ogre mage can survive without its head, it is the opinion of the monster manuel. Perhaps you should write them of this stunning insight that monsters cant possibly survive without thier heads. I am sure they will rewrite the system riight away. :) Look, we are argueing about a DEMON vs a DEVIL. I have seen or helped cut up a great many critters at one time or another, but never ever a demon or a devil. Not one. So I am not in a position to comment on what they can or annnot survive. So I must use the rules of the game, mostly as they are writen. And as they are writen, a regenrating creature can survive the lose of its head.
Kuraito 06-15-06, 11:45 PM	Oh, see now I'm insulted. Its on. I'm not new to DnD thank you, I wouldn't be surprised if I've been playing longer then you, 6 years and counting. Also, you are correct, the ogre mage can survive without his head, BUT, get this, it doesn't say this under regeneration does it? No, its stated out for the Ogre Magi, which means its something Unique to IT and it alone, its not something that hold true for all regenerating monsters or else it would be under regeneration, which implys that regenerating monsters do indeed die when they lose their head since the Ogre Mage goes out of its way to say otherwise. Also, Mr. I-like-quoting-books, it says that a DM might need to use some judgement on this one, what I said is what I believe most DMs will say to themselves, if its has a humaniod type body, its physilogy is most likely more human then not, so chances are, it has a brain and it needs one. So, vorpal isn't gonna work to well on an OGRE MAGE, thanks for informing me of this, I wasn't aware of it, but against other regenerators, it works just fine. I'd also like to point THIS little gem out. SRD: Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Hm...vorpal doesn't deal hit point damage now does it? Vorpal does take the head off since its an attack form that doesn't deal damage, nor relay on the weapon its used with to deal lethal damage, or any damage at all. And its not a coup de grace, so that part of regeneration is moot since it says it ONLY stops Coup De Grace anyway. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. OH, I got more. Check it. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts; details are in the creature’s descriptive text. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally. I'm pretty sure you need a head to not suffocate and such. Also, note "Details are in the creature's Descriptive Text". This is why the Ogre Mage goes out its way to say it can survive without its head for a short time, a creature that doesn't say that, you have to go by base rules, which means DM discretion for Vorpal. No way for me to say what is the RIGHT call, since its, hey, DM discretion, but I think most are going to agree with my reasoning and say the Pit Feind dies, possibly very slowly since it will suffocate since it can't tell its body to come and reattach the head, or maybe immidiatly like most creatures as its heart stops beating, thats up to the DM. Said DM is going to ask themselves things like "Does it have a brain" and "how does it breath" and since theres nothing to say otherwise, most DMs are going to assume that creature with humaniod bodies are mostly like us. Hence, I was doing what your SUPPOSED to do for vorpal and thats ask "Can this thing survive without a head" and figure out why or why not. By your reasoning Vorpal wouldn't work on anything not human cause "Hey, we don't know, orcs might breath out of their Backsides, and there brains might be in there chest next to the heart, no way to know..." Be sure your right before you go high and mighty with the sarcasm sir.
celtredleg 06-16-06, 12:23 AM	Six whole entire years??? Wow!! I suspect I have been playing DnD well before your parents even met. But that does not make me right. You really should read the entry on OM, and you will find the part about the head is listed under, OMG regenration. As for your interpretation, look around the boards. Or ask in a new thread. You are the only person I have ever talked to that doesnt get regen. In fact, it is generaly acdcepted that if you tear a troll into 1000 seperate little peices, the largest will regenarate, and the rest will wither away. It even says that in the rules somewhere, but I dont really want to take the time to look it up. Be angry all you want but that doesnt change anything. Ask as many questions on the boards as you want. You will find you hold a minority opinion, and are welcome to play it that way in your own game. Just be ready for a rude shock when you get outside of your own little circle.
Kuraito 06-16-06, 12:28 AM	Ok, now YOU need to check regeneration, neither regeneration under monsters or under special abilitys says a regenerator can survive without a head, in fact, the Ogre Mage, as I said, goes out of its WAY to say so. And if something doesn't say delibratly that it can survive without its head, we go by base rules, which is, IT CAN'T! Since Rengeration doesn't say so, and Ogre Mage goes out its way to say otherwise, SURPRISE, regeneration doesn't stop you from dying when you loose your head. If what you have just said is what most people believe, then most people seem to think a troll ripped into tiny peices can still BREATH, hey, sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm thinking not, and until something comes out to tell me otherwise, its an ASSUMPTION, not a rule.
Blinky969 06-16-06, 01:24 AM	For all those people arguing that you can't apply real world biology or physics to a game, I would like to point out that on numerous times wizards has attempted to link the two. In the Draconomicon they have biological structures for dragons which, when it is accepted that magic exists and acts upon creatures, are plausible. Wizards also has a tendency of allowing people to assume certain things. While we can conjecture about how MAYBE a Pit Fiends brain is in its chest, it's normally assumed that the brain would be in its head, and Wizards has made no attempt at all to sway that opinion, and so that assumption can stand. Also, one of the definitions of an aberration is an unusual physiology. None of the creatures mentioned so far are aberrations, so they can be assumed to have FAIRLY regular physiologies. I have one particular question about this whole "trolls and pit fiends can just pick up their severed heads and put them back on" thing. Firstly, I don't believe their bodies would be able to function without their heads; even if the head would be regrown by the creature later, it would be helpless until it did. Secondly, and this is quoted directly from page 314 of the Monster Manual, "Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally," so how would the creature find its head? Even if it could function without its brain, its head is dying and has no way of relaying any information to the body, so how is the pit fiend going to retrieve its head? I think that even if you allow the pit fiend that much credit, the fight is lost due to its helplessness while it doesn't have a head. Another point I'ld like to bring up is how is the pit fiend going to breathe? Outsiders are stated as needing to breathe, and the pit fiend is no exception. How does a creature breathe with no head? Your mouth performs an integral function of allowing you to stop the air in your lungs from simply escaping, and if you were decapitated your lungs would simply fill to standard pressure and you wouldn't be able to breathe. So the pit fiend would suffocate. Let's also not forget the whole drowning in your own blood thing that could happen. If you accept that the pit fiend would be helpless without its head, the balor can simply coup de grace it to death. But let's conjecture about other possibilities. REgeneration says that a creature can regrow lost portions of their bodies and reattach severed limbs. "Details are in the creature's descriptive text." The text of Troll, Tarrasque, and Ogre Mage both clearly outline what conditions need to be met for regeneration and reattacment. Pit Fiend doesn't. In my opinion, the only reason for this omission would be Wizard's realizing the Pit Fiend's regeneration was powerful enough without the ability to regrow body parts, and purposefully omitted it. I'm a bit of a slacker on errata, so maybe they merely forgot to mention it and brought it up in errata. I, for one, take the rules as written and assume they're as meant. And when the RAW say refer to the stat block about this ability, and the stat block has nothing, I just assume the creature doesn't have that ability, as opposed to making up values for how long regrowth and reattachment takes, etc. So the fundamental question comes down to, is vorpal a death effect? I would actually like a reference to what page it actually says that regeneration applies to death effects, as I can't find it. I'll be willing to accept that it's true, but from what I can tell that's only for the Tarrasque, as that's a specific example cited in the Tarrasque's text. But for now, I'll assume that claim has backing, and we'll look at vorpal. "Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent's head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads." The text speaks nothing of a death effect. If it did, mentioning undead and golems would be redundant, since they're automatically immune to death effects. It says nothing of regeneration, the head is just gone. How much that matters varies. This comes back to the topic of how can a pit fiend live without a head. I don't personally believe it can, but even if it could still live, would it really matter? How would it function without a head? How does it see, hear, or breathe? The removed head "withers and dies normally," so the head can't see where the body is going, and even if it did, how would it relay this info? It can't talk to a body with no ears, or use telepathy to a body with no brain. Since Wizards didn't give us figures, how long does regrowth take? The Pit Fiend would be pretty much defenseless during this time, so why wouldn't it just be beat down during the process?
Ront Iron-Roar 06-16-06, 01:43 AM	A Solar Angel pawns both of them.
runestar 06-16-06, 02:02 AM	Half celestial balors... :embarrass
Ront Iron-Roar 06-16-06, 02:07 AM	That's one creepy love triangle.
Vedic Cold 06-16-06, 09:54 AM	I imagine that I, or anyone else on these boards, could conceive of a suitable supernatural, pseudo-biological reasoning for why a regenerating creature could survive without its head. Perhaps there is a magical link between the creature's brain (we'll assume that in any generally humanoid-shaped creature the brain will indeed be in the head) and the rest of its body, and this link can only be severed by a weapon capable of dealing lethal damage to it. How one rationalizes or explains the rules is entirely up to the individual. The rules themselves, though, seem pretty clear to me. The text of regeneration states: Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached. This is a default ability of any creature with regeneration. A creature's individual text doesn't have to assert this ability; it is an inherent factor of regeneration. It doesn't specify the amount of time generally required for regrowth, but reattachment is typically instantaneous. The text then goes on to say... An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage. How you envision or explain this capability is up to you, but explaining it isn't really necessary. If one severs a balor's head with a weapon that doesn't inflict lethal damage, it can reattach the head pretty much immediately upon its next turn. How long withering and regrowth would take, I can't say; the text is unfortunately unclear on this, and I can undertand arguments based on this lack of description. Too often such lack of clarity causes confusion for those of us who'd like to stick to the rules provided. I understand the urge to try and apply RW logic to the game, and where it can be applied it generally enhances play. Some things, though, are simply beyond the reach of normal logic, because we're all playing a game where we can sit down and accept that dragons soar through the sky, that someone with a little ball of sulfur and bat dung can use it to hurl a ball of magical flames, and that Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are all objective forces with cosmic entities that embody their principles in flesh and deed. Attempting to confine these things within the purview of mundane reasoning defeats the purpose of playing the game.
Morrowner 06-16-06, 10:25 AM	Both creatures will have Unholy Aura up. The fire attacks don't do anything. It is highly unlikely that Implosion will kill the Pit Fiend. Both can teleport or otherwise have excellent manueverability. They are about equal intellectually. It comes down to a few things: Does the pit fiend have access to a weapon? If it does it can two hand wield and get through the Dr. The Balor can two hand the vorpal sword and get through DR, too. Does Vorpal work on creatures that regenerate? If so, the Balor will need to roll a 13, 18, or natural 20 or better to confirm a crit. The Pit fiend only needs a 9 or better to hit, however so he hits more often and for more damage(about 7 a hit with the claws after DR, about 5 with a bite). Then use power word stun when 150 or below(will take forever). The Balor can teleport, though. Who has the edge summoning? The Balor, by far. I'd say this is about as evenly matched as you can get.
Mirtek 06-16-06, 10:44 AM	Uh...no. Vorpal ABSOLUTLY kills a pit feind, regeneration does NOTHING against it. Vorpal takes off a creatures head, period. Regeneration doesn't keep you from not dying when you lose your head(pun). Actually it does. The only real argument would be whether the pit fiend will suffocate before the head is back or not. Mybe the problem is that I used quotes, and did not cite the source. For that I appologize. The refernece to the Ogre mage is taken from the monster manuel, page 200, 2nd column, 4th paragraph. It is not my opinion that an ogre mage can survive without its head, it is the opinion of the monster manuel. Yes, but an ogre mage only has a weaker, limited version of real regeneration, which can't do the things that real regerneration can do No, its stated out for the Ogre Magi, which means its something Unique to IT and it alone, its not something that hold true for all regenerating monsters or else it would be under regeneration, which implys that regenerating monsters do indeed die when they lose their head since the Ogre Mage goes out of its way to say otherwise. Actually you are onyl half correct: Yes, it's something unique to the ogre mage, but it's not that the can surive without a head, but that he can only surivive for a limited time without a head. Creatures with the full power of regeneration simply regrow any lost bodyparts, they may reattach them, but they don't need to, as they can also simply wait until these parts are regrown. The ogre mage only has the "light version" of regeneratio, thus he's required to find an reattach severed parts and to do it quickly - or he dies. A creature with full regeneration just regrows it's part According to the official Sage Advice in Dragon Magazine (have to look for the exact issue) characters would have to cut a pit fiend into pieces and then to keep the pit fiend down until he starves. This implies that the pieces of the pit fiend can process oxygen without the need of head or lungs
Kenzuki 06-16-06, 11:38 AM	Being an outsider, does a pitfiend really need his head? I mean it's more or less a spiritual being that is not composed of biological means.
Thiez 06-16-06, 11:40 AM	Until he starves? That makes no sense. According to MM, Outsiders breathe, but they do not eat or sleep.
calvinNhobbes 06-16-06, 12:24 PM	I house rule that outsiders don't need to breathe. It just makes more sense that way. I mean it seems a little silly that you can drown an angel in water. Also, about breathing. You don't actually need a "mouth" to breathe. You only need an unobstructed airway and a functioning diaphragm to provide a negative pressure in the plueral cavity. Physiology 101. Of course you need to have a brain stem to have a functioning diaphragm since that is where the motor neurons for the phrenic nerve reside, which is the nerve that provides innervation of the diaphragm. However you could also provide a positive pressure, say from a respirator and thereby fill the lungs of someone with limited brain stem activity, say a patient in a vegetative state for example.
lukelightning 06-16-06, 01:43 PM	My house rule is you clobber the pit fiend til it can't move, then cut out its vile black heart and submerge the thing in holy water. That'll kill the pit fiend for good!
DeathsAudit 06-16-06, 02:01 PM	If the Vorpal was prob Pete the Pit fiend could disarm Barry the Balor so lets drop it.
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-16-06, 06:13 PM	There is one glaring argument for the Balor winning via Vorpal sword: Even if we fully accept that the Pit Fiend can survive without its head, and that reattachment and regrowth of said head are both posssible, we still have to admit that the Balor could still chop the Pit Fiend's head off with that Vorpal Blade. Now, if Mr. Balor chops off that head, what's to stop him from punting said head through the field goal? All he'd have to do is slice it off and throw it as far as he could. The Pit Fiend would not be able to retrieve his head if he couldn't find it, and thus would not be able to reattach it. Now, even if we assume that magical creatures work in magical ways, and that the Pit Fiend could continue the fight headless until he grows a new one, we have to admit that a headless Pit Fiend would be at a disadvantage. He'd be blind. I'm sure that regrowth takes significantly longer than reattachment, and thus the Balor would have a way better chance of finishing the Pit Fiend off after that. If we rule that Outsiders need not breathe, that's fine. I'm sure they still need to eat. ALL things eat. Thus, death by starvation is possible, as a Pit Fiend can not eat without a head. If the Balor could then find a way to pin the Pit Fiend down, he could simply wait it out for a couple of weeks until the Pit Fiend dies. As the head keeps starting to grow back, the Balor satisfies his own hunger by eating the regrowing head. The Balor doesn't starve, the Pit Fiend does. Of course, this is assuming the Balor can keep the Pit Fiend pinned without taking damage himself. Alternatively, here's a better solution: at the onset of the fight, the Balor summons another Balor. The second Balor then summons a third Balor. The third summons a fourth. And so on, if necessary. Even if they can't deal lethal damage, they can still beat the Pit Fiend into unconciousness, and then take turns thrashing it steadily for a couple of weeks until the Pit Fiend dies of starvation. With this scenario, the Balor wins, hands down. The kicker is that Balors can summon other Balors (CR 20), but the best a Pit Fiend can summon is a Horned Devil (CR 16). Even if both sides summoned entire armies to their sides, the Balors would win in the end, because there'd still be only one Pit Fiend versus many Balors. And before anyone says "Oh, but we want to know what would happen in a one-on-one fight," let me point out that this IS what would happen. Sure, the Balor would try and fight alone for a bit, but would eventually give in and call for reinforcements. This is the way the Blood War is fought. This is why the Blood War is a neverending war. In conventional wars, the winners are decided by superior tactics. However, in the Blood War, lone combatants can instantly summon allies when needed, thus creating battles that don't follow the same rules as we are used to. A lone geurilla can sneak up on the enemy and launch a full-scale assault from behind enemy lines. A full army can march in and instantly create many armies. The only reason that the Blood War has never been won is: 1) Devils have better organization and tactics, and 2) Demons are slightly hesitant to summon reinforcements due to their pride, but 3) Balors can summon other Balors, and Pit Fiends can't summon anything that could kill a Balor. Really, I'm surprised this is being debated. Balors kick ass.
Blinky969 06-16-06, 07:26 PM	Outsiders don't need to eat. They do need to breathe by the rules, and RAW WAS what we were discussing, wasn't it? House rules are a beautiful thing, but they're not being talked about right now. You are completely wrong in your premise about the Blood War. A balor can summon many other types of demons, but none of those demons retain the ability to summon their own reinforcements. Summoned creatures don't get to summon their own creatures, that is reserved for creatures that are inherently present in the situation. I wish I could get you a page number; I'll work on it. You also have to mitigate your statement about conventional wars. They are OFTEN decided by superior tactics, but take the U.S. in Afghanistan. That war was one by technological superiority, tactics notwithstanding. Other times superior manpower is enough. Finally, you're forgetting one glaring error in your estimation of how the balors would emerge victorious; a coup de grace with a lethal damage dealing weapon can end the Pit Fiend's existance. With the Pit Fiend down for the count and repeatedly beaten into submission, the Balor can just call up one of his buddies and ask for a good aligned dagger and punch it through the Pit Fiend's throat. You have to figure that for these very reasons the demons must have some good aligned weapons SOMEWHERE. Or, at the very least, they can just send someone out to mug an archon or two.
Kuraito 06-16-06, 10:27 PM	I'd also like to point out that I'm not using real life logic, infact, I'm using rule logic. Rule logic is "The rules stand, unless another rule says otherwise." Rule 1, a vorpal sword takes things heads off unless it doesn't have a head. Regeneration doesn't say otherwise, in fact, it supports the Vorpal CAN indeed remove a Regeners head with the "Any attack form that doesn't deal damage is not effected by Regeneration." Vorpal is..an attack form that doesn't deal damage! Rule 2, Creatures cannot survive without a head. There are exceptions, most of them lacking either a Head or a Con score, these are deliberatly pointed out within Vorpals descriptor. Regeneration does NOT say a creature can survive having limbs removed, it says that if it DOES survive it, it can grow it back or reattach it. Only the ogre mage says anything about a regenerator being able to live on without a vital body part, so, rule 2 stands, as regeneration says nothing to counter it. Anything said to the contrary is an assumption, an INTERPURTATION of the rules as written, which does not meet the standards of rule logic. However, to be fair, Vorpal itself does say it requires a little bit of Interpation itself, however, I find little evidence to support that a regenerator can SURVIVE without a head, let alone still function enough to pick it up and reattach it. DMs will have to do their own inturpatations of the rules, but those good at Rule Logic will most likely reach the same conclusion as I.
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-17-06, 12:43 AM	Outsiders don't need to eat. They do need to breathe by the rules, and RAW WAS what we were discussing, wasn't it? Do you have references to these rules then, since RAW is what we're discussing? I have never read anything stating that Outsiders need not eat. Of course, I haven't read anything stating they need not breath either, but I was willing to overlook this to prove my point that a Pit Fiend losing his head would STILL be killed. You are completely wrong in your premise about the Blood War. A balor can summon many other types of demons, but none of those demons retain the ability to summon their own reinforcements. Summoned creatures don't get to summon their own creatures, that is reserved for creatures that are inherently present in the situation. I wish I could get you a page number; I'll work on it. *EDIT* Ah, you're right on this count. Page 173 PHB. I still think this is a silly rule though, only instituted to make life easier for the DM. However, my opinions are neither here nor there. I stand corrected. With the Pit Fiend down for the count and repeatedly beaten into submission, the Balor can just call up one of his buddies and ask for a good aligned dagger and punch it through the Pit Fiend's throat. You have to figure that for these very reasons the demons must have some good aligned weapons SOMEWHERE. Or, at the very least, they can just send someone out to mug an archon or two. Thought we were going by the RAW here, not situational rules? Who's to say that the Balors keep a stock of good-aligned weapons on hand? Were it my campaign, I'd say NO they don't, because really, any purely evil creature would not want to use such a disgusting weapon. But house rules aside, that situation would still depend on something beyond the Monster Manual and supporting rules regarding combat.
Karak_Nechot 06-17-06, 01:13 AM	Outsiders do not need to eat by the RAW. Considering how much misinformation is being given about outsiders considering their RAW qualities, how about a brief post of the outsider type. Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. Features: An outsider has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-17-06, 01:21 AM	Outsiders do not need to eat by the RAW. Considering how much misinformation is being given about outsiders considering their RAW qualities, how about a brief post of the outsider type. I stand corrected again. Thanks, Karak and Blinky. (No sarcasm intended. The best thing about these boards is the ability to be able to learn the rules better and better.) And really, that last definition settles it then: a beheaded Pit Fiend would suffocate to death. By the RAW. Balor wins the day. End of story.
Drachasor 06-17-06, 01:25 AM	An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage. A few points: 1. If losing his head kills the Pit Fiend, then the vorpal weapon is an instant death attack. If the Pit Fiend can survive without his head, then the vorpal sword DOES NOT kill him and he is not immune to it (but he continues to function without his head anyhow). 2. However, it says that to even THREATEN the creature the weapon must deal lethal damage to him (assuming it is an instant death attack). Now, THREATEN is not entirely defined in this case. For criticals it is defined and for AOOs threatened squares are defined. One could conclude from this that if becoming headless is instant death to the Pit Fiend, then he does not have his head removed by a vorpal sword (he is immune). This is because the sword cannot threaten him with beheading if that would kill the Pit Fiend. So the way I see it, either the Pit Fiend cannot have his head removed, or he can and he grows back his head, as being headless will not kill him. I would tend to view the Pit Fiend as being immune to the vorpal effect entirely, since he is given no immunity to being headless. The Vorpal quality says explicitely that most creatures die instantly when their heads are removed (save those creatures it says function different or those that say otherwise). Since the Pit Fiend's description clearly indicates he has a head and does not give him immunity to being beheaded, then I think the only logical conclusion is that he cannot be beheaded by a vorpal blade unless it does lethal damage to him. In any case, a vorpal sword cannot kill him, since he has to survive the effect by the text of regeneration. There is nothing that says you cannot breathe without a head either. In fact, since, in humans for example, the respiratory functions are entirely confined to the torso*, there is no reason to think not having a head would necessarily stop someone from breathing. -Drachasor *lungs, muscles to expand and contract the lungs, etc.
Drachasor 06-17-06, 01:36 AM	I'd also like to point out that I'm not using real life logic, infact, I'm using rule logic. Rule logic is "The rules stand, unless another rule says otherwise." Rule 1, a vorpal sword takes things heads off unless it doesn't have a head. Regeneration doesn't say otherwise, in fact, it supports the Vorpal CAN indeed remove a Regeners head with the "Any attack form that doesn't deal damage is not effected by Regeneration." Vorpal is..an attack form that doesn't deal damage! Not true. A vorpal sword has to hit to cut someone's head off, and if it doesn't deal damage then it won't remove the head. As the damage reduction text indicates, most special abilities of weapons are negated if the weapon deals no damage to the creature. Certainly that applies to the Vorpal Quality. Note that if you roll a 20, for instance, but don't hit the creature (you hit a mirror image or the creature has concealment, etc), then the creature does not have its head severed. The creature can only have its head severed if you hit it, rolled a 20, confirm a critical, and deal damage (this requires the damage to not be countered entirely by damage reduction). Hence a vorpal weapon inherently must deal damage to sever a head. -Drachasor
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-17-06, 02:03 AM	There is nothing that says you cannot breathe without a head either. In fact, since, in humans for example, the respiratory functions are entirely confined to the torso*, there is no reason to think not having a head would necessarily stop someone from breathing. *lungs, muscles to expand and contract the lungs, etc. The respiratory functions are NOT entirely confined to the torso. In specific, the two most important parts of respiration are not confined to the torso: 1) The brain controls all organ use and muscle contraction. Without a brain, the creature would lose the ability to control its respiratory functions. 2) The ability to hold one's breath is controlled by the throat, not the lungs. The *whatchamacallit flap at the back of the throat* (I want to say trachea, but am unsure) blocks air from escaping your lungs. If you were headless, this flap would be damaged and/or missing, and thus your lungs would quickly exhale all of their oxygen and you'd start suffocating. The whole Vorpal Sword vs. Regeneration thing is moot. There is nothing stopping a vorpal sword from beheading a Pit Fiend: 1) Vorpals don't cause instant death, they cause instant headlessness. There is a difference. There are creatures that can survive the loss of a head, hydras for instance. The act of dying relies on the ability of the body to continue living. Thus, the "an attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage" argument of Regeneration does not apply. This argument applies to save or die spells and such. 2) "Attack forms that do not deal hit point damage ignore regeneration." A successful beheading from a vorpal sword does not deal hit point damage. It inflicts a condition on the victim--a condition of headlessness. Sure, you could say that the hit point damage from the sword itself is ignored. But the condition of headlessness would still apply. 3) The description of Vorpal weapons implicitly states: "Some creatures, such as many abberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. The DM may have to make judgement calls about this swords effect." Note the DM judgement call bit. Many DMs would judge that a Pit Fiend would live on, and many DMs would have the Pit Fiend begin suffocating. It's a loophole that neccesitates a judgement call. I would call it as a kill, personally. However, the battle itself would rely much more on the luck of the dice: Given that the Balor has a 5% chance of rolling a 20, and that he can attack 4 times a round with his sword, let's say that he can roll that 20 within 5 rounds. (4 attacks X 5 rounds = 20 attacks. 20 X 5% = 100%.) Thus, I could see the battle going something like this: Round 1: -- Pit Fiend wins initiative. He full attacks for a maximum of 99 damage. Balor has a minimum of 191 Hp left. -- Balor full attacks for a maximum of 96 damage. Pit Fiend has a minimum of 129 HP left. Round 2: -- Pit Fiend full attacks again, max 99 damage. Balor has a minimum of 92 HP left, but probably much more than that. -- If the Pit Fiend has less than 150 HP, the Balor can attempt his Power Word Stun spell-like ability. He needs to roll a 12 or higher in order for this to work. If the Pit Fiend hasn't been beaten down enough, Balor full attacks again. Round 3: -- If Pit Fiend is stunned, he is helpless. Balor proceeds to full attack him, attempting to vorpal. Power Word Stun lasts for 1d4 rounds against an enemy with 101-150 HP. The Balor needs a maximum of 4 more rounds to achieve his natural 20, but can always attempt to re-stun the Pit Fiend again if the spell effects wear off. -- If the Pit Fiend is not stunned, he full attacks for a maximum of 99 damage. If the Balor had suffered maximum damage every round thus far, the Balor would die. If not, he would survive to attempt his Power Word Stun the following round. As you can see, these guys are pretty much even. The Pit Fiend has the potential to deal slightly more damage than the Balor, and thus COULD win the fight if he rolled dramatically high every hit. However, the Balor has Power Word Stun, which also relies on luck. The entire battle could be refought time and time again, and the outcome would be different each time, depending on initiative rolls, attack rolls, damage rolls, and spell resistance rolls. The Balor would have a much higher chance of winning if he won initiative however--even when taking maximum damage, he only faces the risk of death in the 3rd round. If he won initiative and dealt maximum damage himself in the first round, he'd be able to try casting Power Word Stun in the 2nd round, and failing that, repeat in the third round. That ups his chances incredibly.
Karak_Nechot 06-17-06, 02:06 AM	It does deal damage, it's just the regeneration quality turns it into nonlethal damage. This is not damage reduction that eliminates damage, it just converts damage.
Drachasor 06-17-06, 02:26 AM	It does deal damage, it's just the regeneration quality turns it into nonlethal damage. This is not damage reduction that eliminates damage, it just converts damage. My point was that if the DR got rid of the damage, then the Vorpal ability would not sever the head. The vorpal ability therefore MUST do damage to sever the head. If it doesn't deal damage, then it doesn't work, just like a poison attack wouldn't work if it didn't deal damage. Hence it is a special attack the deals damage (and does instant death if it beheads). Unless the Pit Fiend has sufficient brain functions and breathing to not die immediately and keep on breathing after being beheaded, then regeneration grants him immunity to the effect. A human, for instance, would be beheaded and die immediately (just like the vorpal sword splits victims into groups of those that are unnaffected and those that die immediately). -Drachasor
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-17-06, 02:39 AM	Well, even if we completely ignore the Balor's vorpal sword, he still stands a chance: he would always have the chance to cast Power Word Stun before the Pit Fiend dealt his finishing blow. Succeeding the stun attack, the Balor could then non-lethal the Fiend into unconsciousness, and then strangle him. It would depend on the rolls. I'll stop now. Sorry for the multiple posts. My point has been made.
Kuraito 06-17-06, 12:18 PM	Actually, the balor couldn't stun the Pit Feind, since he could not lower the pit feinds HP due to regeneration. Sorry. Drachasor: Where exactly are you getting this "If DR stops the damage" thing that your basing your argument on? I have seen nothing of it. You are correct that something that made you Miss, like concealment or a mirror image would stop a Vorpal weapon. Something that stops DAMAGE however would not in any way stop a vorpal weapon. The Vorpal quality itself does not deal damage nor require the weapon to do damage. It asks only that its 1. Slashing Weapon, 2. Rolls a nat 20 3. Confirms the crit (note it can do this even on creatures immune to crits, but most of these can live without a head). You can weild a letter sheet quality piece of paper enchanted with Vorpal and start taking skeltons heads off even though 1. Paper Cuts would deal next to no damage, 2.The damage it would deal would be stopped by DR and 3. Skeltons are immune to crits. Other people has already made my point about the instant kill thing, but if your insistant, then theres a spell in Complete Arcane called Decapitating scarf which i believe does the same thing as vorpal. Lets see....hm...its deals 1d4 a level on a SUCCESSFUL save but zero damage on a failed save, it simply decapitates you. "Things that can survive having there head removed take 6d4 points of damage regardless on weither they make the save or not". Again, the only examples the spell gives of monsters that survive decapitation is Constructs and most undead. So, I'm guessing a regenerator is likewise immune to this spell, though it deals no damage? Or, rather, since it can survive its head being taken off, it would just take the 6d4...which is lethal damage...Hm...boy your position makes things complicated. I'll stick with mine.
mvincent 06-17-06, 03:18 PM	Oh, see now I'm insulted. Its on.As an outside observer, I agree with your opposition. A Solar Angel pawns both of them.If "pwn" had to be pronounced out loud and then put back into text based on it's pronunciation, I don't believe that would be it (i.e. it comes from a mispelling of "own")
Damior 06-17-06, 07:56 PM	The battle would go on for a long time. While the two are fighting, the tarrasque pops up and eats them both. Problem solved. Really, it would pretty much never end, with one just teleporting away whenever it takes too much damage. This is why no one wins the blood war, the two sides are too evenly matched.
celtredleg 06-17-06, 09:26 PM	In all previos aditions, trolls even when completely dismembered would regenerate. The largest peice would be the source of this regen. Of course, this is 3.5 and not all of the old stuff counts, but a great deal of it does. The body without the head would be the largest part, so that where the regen would happen. But that is a magic effect, and apperently magic is overruled by science in some games. Personaly I like my dragons capable of flight, my trolls regenerating and my casters useing spells. If I want to only use RW stuff, I will play a different game. But then I am not real sure where vorpal fits into all this science. I must have missed that day in physics where they explained the vorpal effect.
Bongitybongbong 06-17-06, 10:07 PM	If "pwn" had to be pronounced out loud and then put back into text based on it's pronunciation, I don't believe that would be it (i.e. it comes from a mispelling of "own") pwn is pronounced pown on the subject- a pit fiend can summon a total of 2 horned devils for this battle, while the balor can summon another balor. from what it says in the MM the pit fiend would summon a horned devil in the first round (tactics round-by-round), which would give him an advantage against the balor. the balor on the other hand would not summon another of his kind until it was dire, which might not be all that long if the devils are both hitting him. then one really weakened balor and one full health balor would face a mildly weakened pit fiend and horned devil. assuming that neither demon nor devil could teleport away, the pit fiend would probably win
Ront Iron-Roar 06-18-06, 02:57 AM	As an outside observer, I agree with your opposition. If "pwn" had to be pronounced out loud and then put back into text based on it's pronunciation, I don't believe that would be it (i.e. it comes from a mispelling of "own") pwn is pronounced pown Yeah, I know that. But, I just felt like using one of those popular internet...l337ish stuff... Now, back to the subject. Devils generally have better tactics and as Bongity said. A Pitfiend will use its summon ability first. Being that most if not all Baatezu can regenerate the Pit Fiend will be hard pressed. I mean sure they will eventually get imploded but the Infernal wounds from the Horned Devils will impede the Balor even more.
L'agent5 06-18-06, 10:07 AM	Simple: both of them will die, slayed by the other's hand because they're too equal in strenght.
calvinNhobbes 06-18-06, 12:03 PM	2) The ability to hold one's breath is controlled by the throat, not the lungs. The *whatchamacallit flap at the back of the throat* (I want to say trachea, but am unsure) blocks air from escaping your lungs. If you were headless, this flap would be damaged and/or missing, and thus your lungs would quickly exhale all of their oxygen and you'd start suffocating. Actually this is wrong. You do not need to "hold" air in your lungs to breathe. All you need is a drop in pressure from the opening of the trachea to the pleural cavity. This allows air to flow. The "epiglottis" does in fact cover the trachea to block food and water from entering the airway and close the airway to allow you to hold your breath, but you do not need to hold air in your lungs to breathe. There is actually a famous paper that was published about a chicken that had it's head cut off, but it's brain stem was mostly intact and therefore it still had autonomic control of it's diaphragm via the phrenic nerve. It could even walk around, since many of the locomotor neurons and balance reflexes are located in the brain stem and spinal cord. However, it needed to be hand fed since it had no head and extra care was needed to keep its airway unobstructed since it lacked an epiglottis. It eventually died from suffocation from a piece of food getting stuck in the trachea. Also an interesting fact, the reason you can only hold your breath for a certain amount of time is NOT because the air in your lungs runs out of oxygen. The partial pressure of oxygen between inhaled and exhaled breath is almost equal. What forces you to breath is a reflex response in the brain that monitors the acidic level of the blood, which is directly related to the level of carbon dioxide. Therefore, as you hold your breath you do not expel CO2, the acidity of the blood increases, and the brain reflex finally kicks in and forces you to breathe to exhale the CO2.
celtredleg 06-19-06, 12:41 PM	So as long as the balor does not feed the headless PF, he should be fine.