Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BladeDrinker 09-27-05, 09:29 PM	I've been testing my potential players' party of 18th level against a Balor for an adventure I'm planning, and in two of the three test cases I've done it has been a TPK and two other characers die in the non-TPK fight. The party isn't min-maxed, but not exactly weak either. Does the CR assume you will happen to have good aligned weapons with you, a red wizard with spell penetration and improved spell penetration, or several rounds to buff before the battle? It seems like if the Balor is played intelligently, and more importantly protects itself and the area it is encountered in, it's going to be very hard to kill it and survive its death throes. I'm asking because I will probably have to give the party some better weapons and intelligence prior to the fight, or I will have to use a weaker devil.
Ront Iron-Roar 09-27-05, 11:09 PM	Eh Balor is fine as is. Last week I pitted my friends 18th level barbarian against it. He had nothing but his birthday suit and he beat him! Basically, a bunch of Lamia had captured him and where attempting to use his vitality to summon a fiend. Well, Kiev wakes up snaps the chains binding him to the altar despite the fact he has a Symbol of Pain screwing him up. He then proceeds to snap the necks of both the Lamia Sorceror/ Acolyte of the Skin and then her Huge Sized Lamia Fighter. Well, the summoning circle was still going sucking away vitality gobbled up the life energies from both Lamia. So while Kiev was running away he heard a manevolent laughter. The room is instantly cast in a red glow. Well, of course Kiev attempted to run to get out of there being the superstecious barbarian type. But, crowds of Lamia blocked the entrance forcing him to stay as the Balor advanced. The arrogant demon was rather amused seeing a naked human running at him screaming Tempus. 1st Round: Kiev goes into Barbarian rage and jumps at the Balor and hits it with his fists. All the while the Balor is affected by Intimidating Rage.The balor smacks him down with his sword cutting a gash along his side that is immediately cauterized. 2nd Round: Kiev rolls away before charging again this time smacking the Balor's hand. Knocking the sword away from his hand. The balor slams Kiev down into the ground breaking up the tiles. 3rd Round: Kiev rolls away from another blow runs and grabs the sword. Balor attempts to use Implosion but, gets an attack of oppurtunity against him. Kiev rolls a natural 20 and kills the Balor. The Balor fades away and goes back to the Abyss along with his sword. Kiev left naked and battered intimidates the hell out of the Lamia and gets his equipment back.
BladeDrinker 09-27-05, 11:59 PM	I guess my question is why didn't the Balor fly above him and use his spell-like abilities from out of reach?
Ziatyn Phoenixwolf 09-28-05, 12:04 AM	Ront Iron-Roar you used that Balor all wrong the Naked eighteenth level barbarian would have been eaten alive. Did you use any of the Balor's spells on the barbarian? What about the Balor's whip, damage reduction, attacks of oppertunity for the barbarian fighting unarmed? BladeDrinker, yes the CR does assume that at least two of the party members can affect it normally wether that is by weapons or spells; however, a CR that is higher than the party would suggest that there be a casulty or two, or at least some form of major resorce depletion.
d_nychus 09-28-05, 12:49 AM	I've been testing my potential players' party of 18th level against a Balor for an adventure I'm planning, and in two of the three test cases I've done it has been a TPK and two other characers die in the non-TPK fight. The party isn't min-maxed, but not exactly weak either. That sounds about right. You got a CR 2 higher than the effective party level, a 'boss fight,' and at high levels, spells like true resurrection and the ilk to bring the dead back at a minor cost (as compared to the party wealth). Characters dying is fine at high levels, and having TPks is right considering they are 2 levels lower than what they should be for a challenging fight. My question is what did you use for test subjects? Full PC strength characters? I know a lot of people use the DMG NPC equipment as a cheat sheet when doing CR tests, which is a mistake, since PCs have less magic equipment than full PCs. Does the CR assume you will happen to have good aligned weapons with you, a red wizard with spell penetration and improved spell penetration, or several rounds to buff before the battle? It seems like if the Balor is played intelligently, and more importantly protects itself and the area it is encountered in, it's going to be very hard to kill it and survive its death throes. It shouldn't. While true dragons have their CR modified by that poor assumption, I am certain that demons and other outsider races are not. At those levels, the warriors should be dealing out enough damage that DR 15 anything isn't going to block more than half the damage put out with each swing, and casters at that level should have spells and abilities to punch through SR, or be casting spells that utterly ignore SR. And most PCs should have some form of 'built in' buffs by then, anyways. Frankly, any creature can be played intelligently enough to be a huge thorn in PCs sides. A group of kobolds, if played intelligently, can prove deadly to even a group of 5th or 6th level adventurers, even though their CR says otherwise. The more important thing is how intelligently the PCs react to a foe who uses his abilities to his fullest. Are these players the sort who work together and know their own characters' abilities in and out? Or are they the sort who stare at their paper and go "Wait, I can DO THAT?!?!" If they are the former, start out strong and see how it goes. In my experience, PCs who know their characters well tend to pull out something that you would never have thought of when the situation gets dire, mostly because they know just their character better than you do. If they are the latter, however, you may want to give them some help I'm asking because I will probably have to give the party some better weapons and intelligence prior to the fight, or I will have to use a weaker devil. Demon. Don't let the balor know you called him the name of that unworthy race. :p
CzarGarrett 09-28-05, 09:01 AM	Use the Balor as is. If the PCs seem to be beating it senseless, assume the Balor was smart enough to set up a contingency plan of sorts- a trio of Glazbreu, a horde of Kobolds, lots and lots of fire, stuff like that. If the fight is going well enough, then the Balor didn't set up anything.
Derren S. 09-28-05, 09:17 AM	Roar, you get the award for the most pathetic performance of an monsters ever. Why didn't you simply say "You kill the balor" and continue with the advanture insead wasting time with this farce?
The Vorpal Tribble 09-28-05, 10:18 AM	Frankly, any creature can be played intelligently enough to be a huge thorn in PCs sides. Oh, no kidding. I've had one, repeat, 'one' 4th level creature nearly take out a party of six 7th leveled characters. Playing smart is the key ;)
Gemstone 09-28-05, 10:47 AM	Frankly, any creature can be played intelligently enough to be a huge thorn in PCs sides. Frankly any creature is a thorn in the PC's side if the PC's doesn't play intelligently
Ront Iron-Roar 09-28-05, 10:53 AM	Roar, you get the award for the most pathetic performance of an monsters ever. Why didn't you simply say "You kill the balor" and continue with the advanture insead wasting time with this farce? Be in the shoes of that particular Balor for the moment. I was just summoned into the material plane. The room is rather small in hieght compared to my size but, it has good enough width. I hear a shout to Tempus and I see a naked human running at me. Well, I'd be rather amused? Humans like all mortals are weak and me being an arrogant and evil creature decides to toy around with him. Bash him around abit and stuff, after all I want him to suffer right? Well, half-way through my fun somehow he bashes the sword out of my hand. Ok, now its getting serious so I decide to use Implosion. But, I get bashed and my spell doesn't work. As well the blade severs my head and ends my life. Damage Reduction wouldn't have played any role in the affects of rolling a Natural 20 and the vorpral effect. Also, Remember when Errtu first met Drizzts? He walked right into a narrowed crevic and got stabbed and banished. Its not a matter of intelligence but arrogance. Besides, its a plot device I'm intent on using. The Balor sees that result as a fluke and he vows revenge and such. Basically, I'm going to play an Errtu with this guy.
Derren S. 09-28-05, 11:05 AM	Even arrogance doesn't explain this pathetic behaviour. A balor would use Blashphemy and be done with. And the fact that the human survived a single round yet alone was able to even hit it should show that he was dangerous. Even a Balor played at half of its ability would have won. Your playstile was similiar to not doing anything at all and just standing there and let you get hit untill you are dead. And why was the Balor still so arrogant after it was intimidated? No you played the balor just very stupid and weak. Why no 5 ft. step back before using Implusion? Why Implusion and not dominate monster? Why no Blashphemy which is guranteed to work? Why was the Flame Whip not used? Why didn't the Balor teleport away? Why didn't he pick up the sword after beeing disarmed as it was the only weapon which could endanger him in the fight? Plot device.... DMs who play monsters stupid (and your Balor whas a extreme example of stupidness) because they must be defeated as plot device make me sick. And snappick the necks of all the Lamias... This whole encounter is so wrong in every aspect it has nothing to do with D&D or any other game anymore it just a very badly written story..
Count Arioch the 28th 09-28-05, 11:27 AM	Another question, how did mr. barbarian disarm a Balor? I would like to see your disarm bonus on that roll, because I don't think it's very likely unless you have some craqy bonuses.
Derren S. 09-28-05, 11:50 AM	Lets see Balor gets 1d20+31(Attack bonus)+4(Size) vs the Babarian 1d20+18(BAB)-4(unarmed)-4(Symbol of Pain)+X(Str) So when the Balor rolls a 1 (total 36) and the Babarian a 20 he needs at least a +6 Str modifier (Quite possible with greater rage considering that he could burst a Chain (DC 26) with a -4 due to the Symbol of Pain so he needs at least a +10 Str modifier When we subtract the +3 modifier he would get from the Greater Rage his natural Strength score must be 27 or higher.) Lets see, he started with 18, had 4 ability increases (22) and 5 wishes to increase his strength. (27)
d_nychus 09-28-05, 01:23 PM	Frankly any creature is a thorn in the PC's side if the PC's doesn't play intelligently Oddly enough, we witnessed someone pull a LEEEROY JEEEENKINS!!!! (http://media.putfile.com/Movie2887) in my game the other night, but he managed to pull off the suicidal charge successfully. ... Let me rephrase that. He SURVIVED the suicidal charge, and managed to kill the enemies, pretty much without the rest of the party. This was due to good dice rolls and a very timely critical, however. So, sometimes, albeit only very sometimes, PCs don't have to play intelligently to succeed.
Gemstone 09-28-05, 01:53 PM	Oddly enough, we witnessed someone pull a LEEEROY JEEEENKINS!!!! (http://media.putfile.com/Movie2887) in my game the other night, but he managed to pull off the suicidal charge successfully. ... Let me rephrase that. He SURVIVED the suicidal charge, and managed to kill the enemies, pretty much without the rest of the party. This was due to good dice rolls and a very timely critical, however. So, sometimes, albeit only very sometimes, PCs don't have to play intelligently to succeed. OMG! That's was SO funny :D
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-28-05, 06:31 PM	The unarmed Penalty is also partially because the game assumes that you use 1 hand to do it. I think I remember reading in Sword and Fist that if you use 2 hands that the penalty is negated. I dunno, it didn't sound to me that he played the Balor that bad. I sure as heck wouldn't have expected to get my head cut off so Soon! The next Round I would have Flown up starting trashing that barb, but once again, the barb got lucky.
BladeDrinker 09-28-05, 06:55 PM	Demon. Don't let the balor know you called him the name of that unworthy race. :p :eek: You can't see it, but I am covering my head in shame. That sounds about right. You got a CR 2 higher than the effective party level, a 'boss fight,' and at high levels, spells like true resurrection and the ilk to bring the dead back at a minor cost (as compared to the party wealth). Characters dying is fine at high levels, and having TPks is right considering they are 2 levels lower than what they should be for a challenging fight. You're right, it is the boss fight, and I wanted to test it to see if the party could handle it. An EL of 2 + the party level isn't too unreasonable for the BBEG, I think. Obviously I was wrong. My question is what did you use for test subjects? Full PC strength characters? I know a lot of people use the DMG NPC equipment as a cheat sheet when doing CR tests, which is a mistake, since PCs have less magic equipment than full PCs. I used the PC's the players have submitted and advanced them one level and gave them the treasure I have planned for the adventure. The treasure doesn't include any good aligned weapons, as I didn't think the demons would want to leave them lying around. One key thing is that I didn't let the party prepare for the fight. A general of the abyss doesn't wait in a 30 x 30 foot room for you to buff and take him down. He comes to you after he realizes you are about to foil his plans. That said, I didn't buff the Balor beforehand either. Since this Balor was supposed to be a specific Tanar'ri anyway, I am thinking that I will just go ahead and make a fiend that's a little easier for the party to handle. I hate playing monsters stupid or having my DM play them stupid because it feels like cheating. I'm shooting for something that will take out one or two PC's before it dies, but I want to give the party at least a 50/50 chance of winning.
Ront Iron-Roar 09-28-05, 08:20 PM	Lets see Balor gets 1d20+31(Attack bonus)+4(Size) vs the Babarian 1d20+18(BAB)-4(unarmed)-4(Symbol of Pain)+X(Str) So when the Balor rolls a 1 (total 36) and the Babarian a 20 he needs at least a +6 Str modifier (Quite possible with greater rage considering that he could burst a Chain (DC 26) with a -4 due to the Symbol of Pain so he needs at least a +10 Str modifier When we subtract the +3 modifier he would get from the Greater Rage his natural Strength score must be 27 or higher.) Lets see, he started with 18, had 4 ability increases (22) and 5 wishes to increase his strength. (27) Kiev has Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage, and Monkey's Grip if you most know. He has 22 STR I believe. To tell the truth the Barbarian was rolling lucky. The Balor was rolling crapily, but, as well it may have been the fact I was wanting to get the damn encounter done so I could go home. But, seriously guys you don't need to troll me. As well, the breaking neck thing is a house rule we have. First you make a grapple and have to succeed and pin the creature. Then make a Strength check DC 20+ Creatures CON+ Size Modifier(for grapple) to snap the bone. But, I'm intent on redoing the battle and copying down the rolls and then posting it. As well to be merciful I had some influence of Tempus for the barbarian. Image in his mind and morale bonuses. The crap about the storyline was more or less something I lied about to cover up my tracks. But, for pete sake's people you don't need to blow up on me like that. After all DnD is not just rolling dice its storytelling as well. After all before DnD roleplaying was just a bunch of kids with sticks and none of this complicated Dice stuff. And if you want further info Private Message Kiev of Icewind Dale.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-28-05, 08:39 PM	Alright. Barbarian: 18 (BaB) + 6 (Str) + 3 (Greater rage) + 2 (charge bonus) -4 (using a light weapon) = +25bonus Balor (Assuming the balor is standard): 20 (BaB) + 12 (str) + 4 (Two handed weapon bonus) + 4 (size bonus) = +40 bonus. 40-25 = 15. You had to roll 15 points higher than the balor to disarm it. Very lucky on your part, but not entirely impossible. I'll just chalk it down to lucky rolls on your part.
Lina_Inverse 09-28-05, 08:42 PM	I've been testing my potential players' party of 18th level against a Balor for an adventure I'm planning, and in two of the three test cases I've done it has been a TPK and two other characers die in the non-TPK fight. The party isn't min-maxed, but not exactly weak either. Does the CR assume you will happen to have good aligned weapons with you, a red wizard with spell penetration and improved spell penetration, or several rounds to buff before the battle? It seems like if the Balor is played intelligently, and more importantly protects itself and the area it is encountered in, it's going to be very hard to kill it and survive its death throes. I'm asking because I will probably have to give the party some better weapons and intelligence prior to the fight, or I will have to use a weaker devil. They dont have holy weapons? at level 18? they deserve to die if they havent bought or made some. All the demons assume your party is loaded with holy, they should be anyways its 2d6 damage on every attack. It doesnt however assume they can prepare, infact it assumes NEIHTER SIDE KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER. If the balor has any preperations that affects the CR.
BladeDrinker 09-28-05, 09:55 PM	They dont have holy weapons? at level 18? they deserve to die if they havent bought or made some. All the demons assume your party is loaded with holy, they should be anyways its 2d6 damage on every attack. It doesnt however assume they can prepare, infact it assumes NEIHTER SIDE KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER. If the balor has any preperations that affects the CR. So are you telling me I should give the PC's holy weapons in their treasure? I could do it pretty easily, actually, as they are supposed to run into a lot of good aligned knights. I was afraid that would make things a bit too easy though. *sigh* Time to run another couple of tests. I'm getting sick of these stupid Balors.
Sapp 09-28-05, 10:14 PM	3rd Round: Kiev rolls away from another blow runs and grabs the sword. Balor attempts to use Implosion but, gets an attack of oppurtunity against him. Kiev rolls a natural 20 and kills the Balor. Did you remember to confirm critical?
Etiquette_Gnome 09-29-05, 12:21 AM	Even using the very same tactics here, the Balor should have won. He has enough Concentration to simply use Implosion without provoking an AoO. I am a bit surprised by the successful disarm attempt, since the Balor should've been non-arrogant once he was affected by Intimidating Rage (not sure what that does to him though).
Lina_Inverse 09-29-05, 01:56 AM	So are you telling me I should give the PC's holy weapons in their treasure? I could do it pretty easily, actually, as they are supposed to run into a lot of good aligned knights. I was afraid that would make things a bit too easy though. *sigh* Time to run another couple of tests. I'm getting sick of these stupid Balors. No you shouldnt give them. If they arent smart enough to have the cleric make them or just go and buy them. Kill them. I am a strong supporter of rewarding stuipidity properly, With TPKs.
Derren S. 09-29-05, 02:36 AM	Alright. Barbarian: 18 (BaB) + 6 (Str) + 3 (Greater rage) + 2 (charge bonus) -4 (using a light weapon) = +25bonus Balor (Assuming the balor is standard): 20 (BaB) + 12 (str) + 4 (Two handed weapon bonus) + 4 (size bonus) = +40 bonus. 40-25 = 15. You had to roll 15 points higher than the balor to disarm it. Very lucky on your part, but not entirely impossible. I'll just chalk it down to lucky rolls on your part. You forget the -4 throught the symbol of pain, but as the Balor has no two handed swort, the result stays teh same. But how was the babarian able to move away and to charge in the same round? And how was he able to burst the chain? The DC for that is 26 and even with rage he would only be able to get 20+6+3-4=25 for his strength check. And then there is the nonexistant tactics of the Balor and its totally stupid behaviour.
Ront Iron-Roar 09-29-05, 11:11 AM	We attack differently in out game. Based upon how many attacks you have and such. Each character takes their turns trading blows. Balor-20/+15/+10/+5 Kiev-18/+13/+8/+3 Balor 20 Kiev 18 Balor 15 Kiev 13 Balor 10 Kiev 8 Balor 5 Kiev 3 I haven't filled in all the info needed. The barbarian bursts the chains holding its arms. Get stabbed by one Lamia with a dagger. He starts a grapple gets stabbed again but, succeeds on his grapple. THe grapple insues pinning the Lamia to the altar. He rolls high and makes the DC to snap neck. The essence of the Lamia (Wizard 10/ Acolyte of Skin 5) flows into the summoning circle. Another Lamia comes in starts trying to sap his wisdom as well as grapple him. They struggle for a while then Kiev pins. Kiev snaps neck pushes body away and then rolls to break the chains on feet. Essence flows to summoning circle and life energies begin to transfer the demon onto the material plane. Kiev gets up and starts running away to escape. Finds that the Lamia population is crowding at the doors watching but, to afraid to do anything because the Barbarian killed their leader and patriarch. The Balor is summoned and Ront here's its voice questioning him. Kiev is about to bash through the crowd of Lamia. Then image of tempus upon his horse appears in his mind. Fill with courage he turns about and charges the Balor. Kiev shouts tempus (a.k.a Intimidating Rage) and enters barbarian rage. Balor fails will save and is somewhat bewildered by the aspect of a human running at him. Balor bashes him down with the sword then proceeds to pound him with his other fist. Keiv gets up and hits the Balor, does very little damage. Balor crushes him through the floor. Kiev rolls away and scrambles to the side. Balor swings and misses with sword. Kiev attempts to disarm balor. Balor smacks him down. New round. Balor bashes him again. Kiev gets up and attempts to disarm. Balor fails and sword is thrown off. Kiev runs to grab the sword and catches it. Attack of Oppurtunity Balor rolls 1. Balor moves to Kiev attempting to use Implosion. Kiev gets attack of oppurtunity and has a successful critical.
Derren S. 09-29-05, 11:19 AM	Ok, I change the "The balor was defeated because it was played stupid" to "The Balor was defeated because stupid and overpowered houserules, DM intervention and was played stupid".
Gemstone 09-29-05, 01:05 PM	Okay, just because they play the game differently from you, it doesn't mean its stupid. Perhaps their house rules are overpowering, but if they feel that it increases the fun of the game, they should keep them. Actually I felt that it was fluff from a truly epic story when I read his description. Something R.A. Salvatore could've written.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-29-05, 01:54 PM	Okay, just because they play the game differently from you, it doesn't mean its stupid. Perhaps their house rules are overpowering, but if they feel that it increases the fun of the game, they should keep them. Actually I felt that it was fluff from a truly epic story when I read his description. Something R.A. Salvatore could've written. I agree it was a valant fight that 'maybe' fudgeed the rules to let a character live + the Balor was vorpaled. I don't tend to be an expert on Balors (but i play one on this msg board) but the Balor was seems misplayed because of the haste of the encounter and winging it on the part of the Balor (who are arrgogant especally aganist un armed humans who seemed like the regular sacrifice to him). But besides the Vorpal blow the baron o demons would have defentaly won and WoTC says you can cheat to let the pCs win somewhere on this site. But as to the defence of RA Salvatore, it was 2nd man 13d8+0 LOL do you know how weak that is! Ok here i will go with a 2nd edtion hit Cyrstal Shard Errtu: Balor: 13d8+0 Average of 4.5 (58 hp) VS Drizzt: 16 str (+1) +6 sword (frost brand), +1 bonus for two hands (Fighters handbook), +2 Specilization, 1d8 scimitar (lets say he rolled an 8) so thats 18 dam and say he rolled a crit thats 36 damage and now Errtu doesn't want to play no more LOL.
Algorithm_X 09-29-05, 04:02 PM	Ok, I change the "The balor was defeated because it was played stupid" to "The Balor was defeated because stupid and overpowered houserules, DM intervention and was played stupid". While it is the diplomatic way to put it that would seem an accurate accessment of the scenario described. Main Entry: over·pow·er Pronunciation: "O-v&r-'pau(-&)r Function: transitive verb 1 : to overcome by superior force : SUBDUE 2 : to affect with overwhelming intensity <the stench overpowered us> 3 : to provide with more power than is needed or desirable <a dangerously overpowered car> - over·pow·er·ing·ly /-'pau(-&)r-i[ng]-lE/ adverb That definitely seems applicable description of the house rules. Main Entry: 1stu·pid Pronunciation: 'stü-p&d, 'styü- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus, from stupEre to be numb, be astonished -- more at TYPE 1 a : slow of mind : OBTUSE b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : BRUTISH 2 : dulled in feeling or sensation : TORPID <still stupid from the sedative> 3 : marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : SENSELESS 4 a : lacking interest or point b : VEXATIOUS, EXASPERATING <this stupid flashlight won't work> All of that seems to sum up the actions of the balor, and the third definition seems to be suited to the house rule. Derren, While I admire the concise manner in which you described the situation, I believe the value of what you said was lost because of the common use of those words as insulting. I could not think of better words, indeed you seems to pluck the perfect words, but I think the brevity of your observation leads it to be dismissed by those who don't fully examine the inherent meaning. I think explaining what overpowered and stupid means will help bring out the full weight of your words, so I took the liberty. I hope you don't mind.
Ront Iron-Roar 09-29-05, 08:48 PM	I also forgot to mention, that more or less I'm trying to speed up Kiev and Ronts reunion. I have to get Kiev up to 20th. The balor only bumped him up to 19. We also use considerable less amounts of experience we get from encounters with our Characters.It takes us a while to level up and I have been running these characters for about five or four years now. As well, unlike some of you I still contend with School and School work. So DnD isn't my first priority so I can't work on a good encounter as much as I want. Let alone I'm burned out sometimes when I DM. Usually, the summer is the best time for DnD for me.
Freefall 09-30-05, 01:32 AM	I think some of you are underrating the vorpal ability. Vorpal is the kind of thing that would, by the RAW, allow a 1st level kobold warrior to take down the Tarrasque. If it had been a +5 weapon instead the Balor would have won. If the barbarian hadn't gotten a natural 20 the Balor would have most likely won. I don't entirely understand how it got disarmed, or how the Barbarian got an AoO against its use of Implosion (which can be used at short range, and it sounded like the Barbarian was already out of threat range, so I don't see why the Balor would have to move at all to use it), but I think it is enitirely reasonable that the Balor wouldn't feel particularly threatened by the guy at first, and it did attempt to use its most powerful ability once he grabbed the sword, which would be the only conceivable threat to it in the situation. I think that it is more a case of Derren S being the kind of person whose tactics for every monster against any foe are basically to get as far away as possible and then keep nuking away with its strongest power until whatever it is up against dies.
Sapp 09-30-05, 01:59 AM	@ Freefall Vorpal This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.) This means a "critical hit" is not enough. Keen Vorpal Weapons still need a natural 20 to cut heads. It does not work merely on a critical threat. Following the critical threat, another roll needs to be made to confirm it. It works just like a normal critical hit. It doesn't just end at natural 20. Considering that it's a longsword, which a barbarian normally doesn't specialize in with weapon focus, considering the barbarian is naked, and considering that the weapon is large (so the barbarian is using it with a size penalty) confirming the critical likely has less than 50% chance of being confirmed. Vorpal is decent, but not consistent enough. Vorpal doesn't work unless you can hit the creature (to confirm the natural 20). It's not an automatic win with a roll of 20. I think that it is more a case of Derren S being the kind of person whose tactics for every monster against any foe are basically to get as far away as possible and then keep nuking away with its strongest power until whatever it is up against dies. No, that's the kind of person Derren S is. He's the kind of person who gives his monsters the benefit of the doubt... that they're not complete morons. Even in the Monster Manual, it describes the Balor as a brilliant tactician. Like all of the high CR demons/devils/daemons they stay back before summong allies and casting spells from a safe distance. They're not as reckless as humans (stupid humans). EDIT: This was in no way meant to offend Ront, of course, just a defense of Derren's play style, which I find admirable. (He actually puts thought into his encounters. Something I'm sure Ront would also do if he wasn't pressed for time.) There's nothing wrong with playing smart monsters "intelligently" (or, from your perspective, "as cowards").
Vengeblade 09-30-05, 03:14 AM	I think that it was downplayed a bit on teh balor's part, but it seems to be sensible. Not everything in the game can be played by pure mechanic. I mean think, you've just appeared somewhere else far away, and someone is screaming and charging you, even a demon is going to be startled by this. Then the guy jumps on you and starts pounding on you, you try to get him off even though you still haven't gotten you bearings as to what's all happening, finally you shake him off. Then he knocks your weapon out of your hand, a mere human doing this to you, now you've got to be a bit lost on what's going on, so desperatly you try to implode him, but in the rush and confusion of things you fail to notice that he's grabbed your sword and now swinging at you. POOF! Deaded by bad circumstance. Sounds like a coolfight my players would be talking about for weeks. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the rest of use don't, lots of people means lots of opinions, just gotta accept that.
Derren S. 09-30-05, 03:46 AM	When you are startled and surprised by an strong enemy (The Balor was intimidated) the first thing one normally does is to reposition yourself and analyze the situation (Teleport) or use your strongest attacks (Blashphemy, Dominate Monster) and not your weakest. The tactic you describe would be ok for someone with <10 Int and Wis, not for a Balor with Int and Wis 24. Also, as breaking necks is so easy in this game, Why didn't the balor grapple and broke the Babarians neck? With a +16 to his strength the Balor would have succeeded with an average roll. Or the huge Lamia (Who can't be grappled by the Babarian because its 2 categories larger than him)? How did the babarian even make an DC 29 Str check to break the neck of the Lamia fighter without raging and a active Symbol of Pain?
Algorithm_X 09-30-05, 03:48 AM	Balor Size/Type: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (290 hp) Initiative: +11 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good) Armor Class: 35 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28 Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+36 Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +33 melee (2d6+8/19-20) Full Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+8/19-20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+4 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or 2 slams +31 melee (1d10+7) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with +1 flaming whip) Special Attacks: Death throes, entangle, spell-like abilities, summon demon, vorpal sword Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19 Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26 Skills: Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls) Feats: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword) Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 balor, 1 marilith, and 2-5 hezrous) Challenge Rating: 20 Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +1 vorpal greatsword and +1 flaming whip Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: 21-30 HD (Large); 31-60 HD (Huge) Level Adjustment: — A balor stands about 12 feet tall. Its skin is usually dark red. It weighs about 4,500 pounds. Combat Balors love to join battle armed with their swords and whips. If they face stiff resistance, they may teleport away to loose a few spell-like effects at the foe. A balor’s +1 flaming whip is a long, flexible weapon with many tails tipped with hooks, spikes, and balls. The weapon deals bludgeoning and slashing damage, in addition to fire damage. A balor’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Death Throes (Ex):When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based. Entangle (Ex) A balor’s +1 flaming whip entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 20 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balor immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balor wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the balor’s body until it escapes the whip. Spell-Like Abilities At will— blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Vorpal Sword (Su) Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning. Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell. Flaming Body (Su) The body of a balor is wreathed in flame. Anyone grappling a balor takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round. True Seeing (Su) Balors have a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell (caster level 20th). Skills Balors have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Tactics Round-By-Round The balor is most effective as a ranged combatant, using its spell-like abilities to attack from a distance. * Prior to combat: Unholy aura. * Round 1: Fire storm or implosion and quickened telekinesis, or summon additional demons. If the balor does not deem itself seriously threatened, it conserves abilities usable only once per day and uses blasphemy instead. * Round 2: Insanity or power word stun. * Round 3: Full melee attack with weapons, including entangle with whip. * Round 4: Teleport or fly away with entangled foe to reestablish range; repeat round 1 and continue. A balor who wants to drive off or neutralize a party without slaying its foes avoids lethal attacks. * Prior to combat: Unholy aura. * Round 1: Dominate monster. * Round 2: Power word stun. * Round 3: Insanity or telekinesis to incapacitate or repel a dangerous opponent. * Round 4: Teleport or fly away to reestablish range; repeat round 1 and continue. I've noticed that power monsters that often have play by play tactics to prevent forgetting about their actual potential during the heat of dice rolling. The Mind Flay is another example. Dominate Monster at will... Really, really handy for pacifying sacrifices. Note if you use the book of vile darkness actually using range (so the prey doesn't hurt itself on your flaming body) and dominating them so they can be placed on an alter and sacrificed using the sacrifice rules would be intelligent, especially with the potential for "free" (it costs other people not you) power, if you happen to be a Balor. Everything in the second set of tactics is free (ie at will). Why not use those powers? Also about "joining combat" a single unarmed human isn't battle worthy. True contempt and arrogance would be Dominating it and then throwing it in a pit of pit of sacrificial victims. What is worse is that is also the strategic and prudent thing to do. Ruthless efficient not Maliciously stupid. With a Int 24, and Wis 24 chaotic evil does not equal blinding arrogance. (Balor are not only smart but very wise)
Derren S. 09-30-05, 03:53 AM	Don't forget that this "single unarmed human" was a dangerous opponent. At least the Balor believed this because he was intimidated. Also on the first attack the Babarian did "little damage" to the Balor. That means he had been able to do more than 15 damage (to penetrate DR) unarmed. That is not something a normal and weak human can do as it would be equivalent of ripping people in half.
Algorithm_X 09-30-05, 04:04 AM	Derren S. , Excellent points. I would like to point out 15 points of damage is one point less than the a critical of longsword wielded by the common man. Imagine a normal guy getting the best shot he could possibly get with a longsword against a moving opponent... Not an insignifigant amount of damage. How can you be intimidated and still think an opponent is harmless?
Vengeblade 09-30-05, 08:11 AM	You do make a good point and I could see it going that way too. But seriously, with all of that happening so quickly, are you telling me that you've never been so confused at one point where all you could do was jus stand there. I think it's happened to everyone at least once, where your brain jsut can't take in all the new input at once, so it just freezes and you barely do anything for a moment. I guess it's really the DM's call and his preference of play style.
Derren S. 09-30-05, 09:33 AM	But seriously, with all of that happening so quickly, are you telling me that you've never been so confused at one point where all you could do was jus stand there. I think it's happened to everyone at least once, where your brain jsut can't take in all the new input at once, so it just freezes and you barely do anything for a moment. The Balor was able to do something, namely attackign with its sword. So it wasn't paralyzed. Some other questions, where was the Whip? The Balor only had the sword and fists. And what were the stats of the Lamia fighter who was dispatched this easily.... Imo his preffered playstyle is: Put in huge monster and let the players kill it. Play the monster as dumb as neccessary to achieve that.
Gemstone 09-30-05, 09:42 AM	Imo his preffered playstyle is: Put in huge monster and let the players kill it. Play the monster as dumb as neccessary to achieve that. Except for the dumb part, that's mostly how our Epic games look like. The bigger monster, the more damage players try to do to it :D most monster fall after two to three turns. I've just put togheter an advanced 50 HD paragon pit fiend to keep em occupied for a while
d_nychus 09-30-05, 12:41 PM	:eek: You can't see it, but I am covering my head in shame. Hey, I'm guilty of the same thing at points, so don't feel too bad. Just remember to check your closets for bodak assassins from now on. ;) You're right, it is the boss fight, and I wanted to test it to see if the party could handle it. An EL of 2 + the party level isn't too unreasonable for the BBEG, I think. Obviously I was wrong. Like I said, when the players get involved, you're going to be really surprised with what they come up with. There is a huge, HUGE difference between you playing 4 characters that you are familiar with against a boss you know well, and 4 players playing the characters they have tailored themselves against a boss they, too, probably know fairly well. I used the PC's the players have submitted and advanced them one level and gave them the treasure I have planned for the adventure. The treasure doesn't include any good aligned weapons, as I didn't think the demons would want to leave them lying around. Actually, you'd be surprised. Demons would use whatever they can get their hands on, especially if its effective against their lowly devil enemies. I can easily see a balor wielding a holy sword in the Blood War, despite the penalties. One key thing is that I didn't let the party prepare for the fight. A general of the abyss doesn't wait in a 30 x 30 foot room for you to buff and take him down. He comes to you after he realizes you are about to foil his plans. That said, I didn't buff the Balor beforehand either. While this is true, remember there are ways for PCs of that level to stay hidden long enough to buff while the balor is hunting them. The PCs may have more buff spells up than you expect when the fight actually starts. Since this Balor was supposed to be a specific Tanar'ri anyway, I am thinking that I will just go ahead and make a fiend that's a little easier for the party to handle. I hate playing monsters stupid or having my DM play them stupid because it feels like cheating. I'm shooting for something that will take out one or two PC's before it dies, but I want to give the party at least a 50/50 chance of winning. Well, just what are you planning on doing to tone it down? Change the balor, or the environment? Or change the events? Maybe the balor is using some sort of fiendish device that requires his concentration when the PCs meet up with him, so is caught off-guard? Or he just dealt with an assassination attempt and has used up a few of spell-like abilities? You don't really need to play 'dumb' as long as you can think of a good in-game reason as to why he would be able to use his full abilities.
Sapp 10-01-05, 01:04 AM	@ Algorithm_X and Derren To be fair... you can't expect the DM, a human, to play a being of superhuman intellect and wisdom accurately. My standard expectations are that the DM plays these monsters using average human intelligence. Average is, of course, the default. We're all human, and I doubt many of us could play near-epic monsters with perfect accuracy. (It seems to be the case. I've noticed a lot of DMs play any monsters with under 10 Int as complete retards, and play anything with 20+ Int with average human intelligence. It's like an intangible ceil caused by our own mental limitations. This thread provides ample proof of that. Even though Balors are obviously not human, people are comparing them to humans: But seriously, with all of that happening so quickly, are you telling me that you've never been so confused at one point where all you could do was jus stand there. I think it's happened to everyone at least once, where your brain jsut can't take in all the new input at once, so it just freezes and you barely do anything for a moment. I guess it's really the DM's call and his preference of play style. As seen here, Vengeblade makes the mistake of attributing human flaws and emotions to the Balor.)
Vengeblade 10-01-05, 06:45 AM	Okay, as far as I can tell, most outsiders seem to be very capable of emotions. They do possess superior physical and mental abilities, so it may change how ans why tehy react certain ways, but it doesn't seem to remove the capacity for emotion, in fact many outsiders are driven by it it seems.
Sapp 10-01-05, 01:18 PM	Okay, as far as I can tell, most outsiders seem to be very capable of emotions. They do possess superior physical and mental abilities, so it may change how ans why tehy react certain ways, but it doesn't seem to remove the capacity for emotion, in fact many outsiders are driven by it it seems. Sure, but you are attributing your own sense of logic and emotion (which, let's be honest, is probably around average or maybe above average for a human) to an outsider who has 20+ Wisdom and Intelligence (superhuman control over his thoughts and emotions). As seen here, Vengeblade makes the mistake of attributing human flaws and emotions to the Balor. I know we all love our little anecdotes about hubris and its terrible effects, but to randomly assign it as the number one downfall of superhuman entities is a little too much, isn't it? You'd think that the ones who are up there in terms of power would be wise enough to maintain their positions. The tactics for a Balor's method of fighting is even detailed in the Monster Manual, because the designers rightfully felt most DMs wouldn't be able to do the monster justice. (Charging in, ignoring his special abilities.)
Ront Iron-Roar 10-01-05, 09:34 PM	You know what I completely ruined this thread. Why don't we quit argueing back and forth on the statistics of a Balor and human barbarian duking it out. I'm redoing the battle and the entire place where it happened. Personally, I'm unsatisfied with what I did now. I'm trying to redo the encounter buts its hard to argue with an 18 year old who's been playing DnD before I ever have. We've built up some house rules around things done in the books. The break neck thing was do to Wulfgar mainly and the way we fight is do to Artemis and Drizzt in their fighting. Basically, we try making our battles seem rather epic and story like not statistical and tactical gaming. DnD, despite all the rules and such for it is still a freeform game at heart. And trying to control and make other people play DnD along your specific standards is not a way to do things. I tried doing that with my group and despite what the DM tells them they defy me. Zephyrus/Sonet is one of the people in that group and perhaps the leader of such a revolution against me.
Freefall 10-01-05, 11:00 PM	Sure, but you are attributing your own sense of logic and emotion (which, let's be honest, is probably around average or maybe above average for a human) to an outsider who has 20+ Wisdom and Intelligence (superhuman control over his thoughts and emotions). I don't think Tanar'ri in general have a whole lot of control over their emotions. That's part of being the embodiment of chaotic (evil) forces. Also, the Bloodwar will always be there to throw doubt on the Tanar'ri and Baatezu ability to take logical action over their impulses or suppress their nature. After all, with such great intellects the Pit Fiends and Balors should have realized that the war cannot be won by either side, yet they keep on fighting. The tactics for a Balor's method of fighting is even detailed in the Monster Manual, because the designers rightfully felt most DMs wouldn't be able to do the monster justice. (Charging in, ignoring his special abilities.) True, and I'm sure that is why they wrote it up. But still, I'm sure they were also assuming that the Balor was up against a group of at least 4 characters of at least 18th level, including an arcane spellcaster, a divine spellcaster, and all of them armed with magical weapons, armor, and other trinkets. That is a very different situation from a single 18th level brawler without any equipment.
Algorithm_X 10-02-05, 12:00 AM	if an unarmed brawler can kill a Balor in the setting you are describing, (and obviously they can as it happened in play) then why wouldn't a Balor see them as a threat. If I really was a cruel being wroght for pure evil and choas, I would pacify a victim and and they do horrible things to it that can't be posted here. f I was intimadated by such a brawler I wouldn't hesitate to use the most powerful powers on him. The instant he was able to bypass my DR with his bare hands I would teleport out of there and then unleash a counter assault with full force after properly buffed. Does your world not have monks? How does a blaor know a naked "mortal" isn't some epic martial artist with uber reality-bending kung fu? Any being not shaking in fear of a Balor is obviously confident for a reason. Are they merely foolish (unlikely as how awful a Balor is painfully obvious and would require a exceptionally rare level of stupidity to charge without something on your side. The usual sacrificial victim wouldn't be smart enough to remember to breath if they charged a Balor)
Kothardarastrix 10-02-05, 03:16 AM	You do make a good point and I could see it going that way too. But seriously, with all of that happening so quickly, are you telling me that you've never been so confused at one point where all you could do was jus stand there. Vengeblade, with this comment it seems you've forgotten that Balors are very accustomed to the chaos of battle. Unlike Devils, Demons; especially tanar'ri, gain their positions of power through actual conflict one way or another.
Vengeblade 10-02-05, 08:31 AM	Okay okay, you're most liekly right one this one. I was just providing a reason how it could happen, I mean he just got summoned there, I've always felt with any sort of transportation that you feel a bit woozy as you body tries to catch, and that no creature that is subject to critical hits would be unaffected. But it does seem a bit played down, I'm just going to say the balor was over-confident, and a big dumb jerk. There ya go, the balor was a jerk, that's all we need to know. Yup, I'm tired, have fun with that one.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-02-05, 10:26 AM	I don't think Tanar'ri in general have a whole lot of control over their emotions. That's part of being the embodiment of chaotic (evil) forces. Also, the Bloodwar will always be there to throw doubt on the Tanar'ri and Baatezu ability to take logical action over their impulses or suppress their nature. After all, with such great intellects the Pit Fiends and Balors should have realized that the war cannot be won by either side, yet they keep on fighting. Logic doesn't work in the Blood War because the 'ri and the 'zu loathe each other. Their feelings for one other make the feud between the 'leths and the 'loths look like banter between good friends. Hell, the threat of being flayed is the only thing that prevents 'ri and 'zu from ripping each other apart when they meet each other in Sigil. And that only applies to the powerful ones, who would damage Sigil to the extent that they would be either flayed, mazed, or barred. The weaker ones go at each others' throats.
Vasyek 10-02-05, 03:34 PM	I don't think Tanar'ri in general have a whole lot of control over their emotions. That's part of being the embodiment of chaotic (evil) forces. Another part of being manifest insanity and perversion is unpredictability. If every flicker of rage engulfs them to the pointless of rank senselessness and immediate, overt action, then their behaviorial patterns are regular as clockwork. Further, Tanar'ri of such power and distinction have lived for centuries/millennia and over that period have likely experienced degrees of frustration and anxiety that would outright cripple beings of lesser will and substance. They may not quash the emotions that wash over them, but their threshold by this point would be as adaptive as it is extreme... It's overly pat to assume that the provocation of any Tanar'ri, let alone a paragon of the mindset like the Balor, inevitably yields the advantage to their foes. To throw my bits in concerning the Blood War, it serves a purpose even without the hope for victory. Its underlying imperative makes both races more prolific as corrupters, the scope and horror of the war itself is an undying testament to their power and reach, it prevents either side from turning too far inward, and the constant peril drives them to greater invention in tactics, weaponry, and derived form.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-02-05, 03:35 PM	if an unarmed brawler can kill a Balor in the setting you are describing, (and obviously they can as it happened in play) then why wouldn't a Balor see them as a threat. If I really was a cruel being wroght for pure evil and choas, I would pacify a victim and and they do horrible things to it that can't be posted here. f I was intimadated by such a brawler I wouldn't hesitate to use the most powerful powers on him. The instant he was able to bypass my DR with his bare hands I would teleport out of there and then unleash a counter assault with full force after properly buffed. Does your world not have monks? How does a blaor know a naked "mortal" isn't some epic martial artist with uber reality-bending kung fu? Any being not shaking in fear of a Balor is obviously confident for a reason. Are they merely foolish (unlikely as how awful a Balor is painfully obvious and would require a exceptionally rare level of stupidity to charge without something on your side. The usual sacrificial victim wouldn't be smart enough to remember to breath if they charged a Balor) THE BARBARIAN BY NOW WAY COULD BREAK HIS DR! WHY DO YOU PEOPLE ASSUME SO MUCH! First off, not every character has an extensive knowledge on monsters as the player does. So here's what he thought. "Well, I'm going to die now. Well, I'd rather go out fighting just as my god wants me to in the glory of battle! TEMPUS!" That act of bravery against overwhelming odds brought the admiration of Tempus upon him and he blessed the Barbarian. He was a regular human barbarian with Power Attack, Cleave, Monkey's Grip, Intimidating Rage, and Unarmed Strike. He had a moral bonus to hit because of an image from Tempus. And if you think a Monk is the only class that can be a good unarmed person or even do well at it then you have a poor imagination. Though, the barbarian wasn't like flying kick or anything. He was just going to run forward and attempt to hit the beast with his fists nothing special. I described the Balor reaction to the intimidation as being bewildered and such. The only difference in game play from the rules were how the rounds worked and the Break Neck DC which had no effect in the battle.
Sapp 10-02-05, 03:55 PM	Ront, While that may be fine and dandy, recall that it was you who wanted to prove how weak Balor's were. To counter the OP's assertion (that Balor's are too good for CR 20) you gave a ridiculous story of how a naked level 18 barbarian defeated one. However, all you really managed to prove was that any D&D monster can be defeated given DM bias. You must admit: You sided with your player that time by not investing thought into the encounter (EDIT: Oh... and by generously granting "Tempus's Blessing" to the barbarian. Haha). Hence, you proved nothing. The balor isn't an easy encounter. He's an easy encounter if your DM sides with you. That is all. I think that was what Derren tried to imply. Myself? I think the Balor is fine for CR 20. (Though it pains me to put the balor on the same CR as Tarrasque. Yes, I do like to underestimate my Tarrasques. Haha.)
Ront Iron-Roar 10-02-05, 04:37 PM	Ront, While that may be fine and dandy, recall that it was you who wanted to prove how weak Balor's were. To counter the OP's assertion (that Balor's are too good for CR 20) you gave a ridiculous story of how a naked level 18 barbarian defeated one. However, all you really managed to prove was that any D&D monster can be defeated given DM bias. You must admit: You sided with your player that time by not investing thought into the encounter (EDIT: Oh... and by generously granting "Tempus's Blessing" to the barbarian. Haha). Hence, you proved nothing. The balor isn't an easy encounter. He's an easy encounter if your DM sides with you. That is all. I think that was what Derren tried to imply. Myself? I think the Balor is fine for CR 20. (Though it pains me to put the balor on the same CR as Tarrasque. Yes, I do like to underestimate my Tarrasques. Haha.) No, your misinterpreted what I was getting at. I was saying the Balor is fine as is and I gave a point. That through a mixture of my lack of info on the encounter and people yelling at me and giving their own opinion was greatly distorted. So CR 20 is just fine!
Sapp 10-02-05, 05:02 PM	No, your misinterpreted what I was getting at. I was saying the Balor is fine as is and I gave a point. That through a mixture of my lack of info on the encounter and people yelling at me and giving their own opinion was greatly distorted. So CR 20 is just fine! I don't see how I missed your point. You explicitly stated it, and only repeated it in this latest post. You were saying that "the Balor is fine as is." Your "point" was that the Balor isn't as difficult as the OP thinks it is to defeat, and your proof was based on a biased encounter between a barbarian and a DM-Forsaken Balor. Although I do agree that CR 20 is fine, I can't really blame Derren for questioning your proof.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-02-05, 05:06 PM	I probably should have just said the Balor was fine as is and went on with my way. :P But, then again I wasn't thinking that then. Though, it was kinda amusing to have all those people ticked off at me.
Sapp 10-02-05, 06:25 PM	I probably should have just said the Balor was fine as is and went on with my way. :P But, then again I wasn't thinking that then. Though, it was kinda amusing to have all those people ticked off at me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not ticked off at you (I hardly think most people could have played a timeless, superhuman, fiendish lord accurately anyway. Does that mean no human DM should ever play such a complex villain in his campaigns? Of course not). You merely used a bad example. The sentiment, however, was agreeable, to say the least. Everyone uses a bad example or analogy once in a while.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-02-05, 06:41 PM	........ "Well, I'm going to die now. Well, I'd rather go out fighting just as my god wants me to in the glory of battle! TEMPUS!" That act of bravery against overwhelming odds brought the admiration of Tempus upon him and he blessed the Barbarian. .............. Ront i am sorry but Tempus can not come down bless the barbarian. Where was Orcus to bless the Balor then? chances are the other Tanar'Ri will ridcule said Balor forever for this LOL. In Ronts defence RA Salvatore and his Errtu were pretty much defeated Twice by stupid methods. The second time made no sese and went alot like Ronts encounter! Errtu went to kill Drizzt but Wulfgar yelled Tempest! and charged Errtu and grappled him with equal strength :looloo: The whole tanar'Ri encounter was weak in my books (a rare one in RAS's books) especally the Marilith. So don't beat your self up about it.
Elgonn 10-02-05, 06:49 PM	If you don't nerf Blasphemy or its sister spells then a Balor can be way way too good for a CR 20.
Sapp 10-02-05, 07:00 PM	Ront i am sorry but Tempus can not come down bless the barbarian. Where was Orcus to bless the Balor then? chances are the other Tanar'Ri will ridcule said Balor forever for this LOL. In Ronts defence RA Salvatore and his Errtu were pretty much defeated Twice by stupid methods. The second time made no sese and went alot like Ronts encounter! Errtu went to kill Drizzt but Wulfgar yelled Tempest! and charged Errtu and grappled him with equal strength :looloo: The whole tanar'Ri encounter was weak in my books (a rare one in RAS's books) especally the Marilith. So don't beat your self up about it. Oh of course. Lots of literary works have had me fuming. Malystryx (Advanced Elder Wyrm Red Dragon Lord) was, one minute, suffering from a minor eye irritation (a lance wound to her eyeball! HAHA!). She was almost perfectly healthy besides that. The text explicitly said so. The next, she dies from another lance wound to her heart. What The Hell. Alright, if a lance can be described as dust in my eye, I fail to see how another speck of dust can pierce my chest, ribs, and heart, killing me. Also, it seems like most authors don't display their characters intelligently. I won't begin to list the number of painfully stupid villains (supposedly claimed by the text to be remarkable super-geniuses) whose lack of reasoning lead to their demise. (Hubris is sooo overused/abused.) I think it may have a lot to do with the authors' own biases. If they spend a lot of time on a character design, and put a lot of effort into their thoughts and rationales, the characters will inevitably survive longer (it takes effort to make/develop these guys, they won't just be thrown away!) and become beloved. Villains who were made to be killed, however, don't get the same attention, and hence, their actions would always seem less well-thought. That's my take on it, anyway.
oxybe 10-02-05, 07:18 PM	alright... time for my :twocents: 1 - this is a game first and foremost. not everyone plays it the same way. houserules exist. dice fugding exists. dm's favouring an exciting and dramatic story over "rules" exist. no two dm's will play a high-level encounter the same way ever. get over it. 2 - no one person on this board can play a balor perfectly. ever. you will never have a wis or int high enough to play it. only a venerable person (ie. your grandfather or father) who has inherent bonuses(which are magic, and thus non-existant in our world) and a natural 18 in those stats could come close to playing the balor. since virtually everyone here has between 8-14 in every stat, if your int + wis are over 20, stop playing d&d and go invent world peace, we are in dire need of it and fast. maybe stop global warming and cure all diseases while you're at it. 3 - why can't a dm go go the literary route and embellish a little bit? personally, i would like to have been at that game. also, a TPK should be used when the entire party does the "stupid" thing, but the barb was in a hopeless situation and he had virtually no other choice, so he attacked (natural barb instinct). the single barb overcame the odds (remember CR 20 means that the balor is a challenge for four ECL 20, not just one) and was victorious. heck, if james bond couldn't overcome the odds, he would have been dead many movies ago. same goes for your fav books. ok, so that's my three cents. and yeah, a balor is CR 20 worthy if the party is well made and balanced. higher CR if the party is sub-par and lower CR if the party is completely min/maxed. the CR is never set in stone in my books, its just a guideline.
d_nychus 10-02-05, 07:41 PM	If you don't nerf Blasphemy or its sister spells then a Balor can be way way too good for a CR 20. How? The balor first has to get within 40 feet of the party, and by that level, most PCs have little chance of being surprised by anything. The party would have to be all within 40 feet of the balor at once, which, at higher levels, is not likely. And one silence spell utterly negates it. At the very worst, the balor might waste an action to daze and weaken about half the party at one time. Not exactly an impressive ability there. Useful, but the balor would probably be better suited using melee attacks at that range.
Raven Dark 10-02-05, 10:33 PM	That barbarian should have died a horrific death. Why? First, it is debatable as to whether someone can even use a balor's personal greatsword. A balor gets it as a racial benefit, not as personal equipment--for all we know, it vanishes whenever it leaves the balor's hand and is summoned forth when he needs it! The rules aren't clear on the issue. Second (and this is the important one) a balor's greatsword is LARGED-SIZE. How does a medium-sized barbarian wield it at all? The "handedness" of it is too much for him! This whole thread is rather inane. :rolleyes:
d_nychus 10-02-05, 10:48 PM	The thread is fine, so long as you kept on topic. One of the examples given, the one that way too many people gave way too much attention to instead of talking about what the initial thread was talking about, was ridiculously stupid. It should have just been ignored.
Kothardarastrix 10-02-05, 11:56 PM	alright... time for my :twocents: 1 - this is a game first and foremost. not everyone plays it the same way. houserules exist. dice fugding exists. dm's favouring an exciting and dramatic story over "rules" exist. no two dm's will play a high-level encounter the same way ever. get over it. Listen, I'm sick and tired of this defense... it is the worst reason to forget. It's a game, let's add a scoreboard, shinguards, and helmets into it as well! Any good DM will learns to use the rules, whilst still getting your exciting dramatic story. A DM is supposed to be consistent, if not, we might as well go outside and beat each other with wooden swords until we all run out of hit points.... Also if I were to end war and all diseases, I'd cause the world to be overpopulated by more idiots than it has now...
Elgonn 10-03-05, 01:27 AM	How? Um. He can keep an entire party perma stunned forever. No save. He doesn't need to have more than a single summoned creature or ally around to TPK a party (yes it has some ways to be stopped). Without that ridiculously cheap effect he's a perfectly fine CR 20. The 18th level barbarian example is a wonderful joke because a Balor could never lose to that character if played with any intelligence.
Donraj 10-03-05, 01:51 AM	I see nothing wrong about this. I could easily envision it happening, it made for what sounds like a great scene and the player in question had fun. Balor von Balorvich: Ront i am sorry but Tempus can not come down bless the barbarian. Where was Orcus to bless the Balor then? chances are the other Tanar'Ri will ridcule said Balor forever for this LOL. ...So, the God of War cannot bless a worshipper with accuracy and skill when he invokes said god's name while commiting an act of incredible bravery as a warrior? Wow. Raven Dark: First, it is debatable as to whether someone can even use a balor's personal greatsword. A balor gets it as a racial benefit, not as personal equipment--for all we know, it vanishes whenever it leaves the balor's hand and is summoned forth when he needs it! The rules aren't clear on the issue. Since its a grew area the DM seems perfectly justified in interpreting it in the way that would be most fun to his players, wouldn't you say? Second (and this is the important one) a balor's greatsword is LARGED-SIZE. How does a medium-sized barbarian wield it at all? The "handedness" of it is too much for him! The barbarian had Monkey Grip. Which, if I remember correctly, allows him to use weapons one size catagory higher without penalty.
Sapp 10-03-05, 02:42 AM	Donraj, I think you're misunderstanding here. You need to take in the context. The point is, he used that incidence as an example as to how a Balor can be easily defeated. Clearly, it's a bad example. That's all we're saying. The fact that the DM actually used Godly intervention to save the character should have hinted you off right away. This is not a good example of how Balor's can be defeated easily. In fact, any time godly dice-rolls or DM interference (AKA Deus ex Machina / Divine Intervention / the Hand of God) gets involved with an encounter, you shouldn't use it as an example of how a monster is "easily beatable" by a party. The OP was stating that the Balor is a tough opponent for CR 20. I disagree, but don't have much evidence or don't want to bother proving him wrong. Ront also disagreed, but he used a bad example of a Balor encounter. If it was meant to be just a short, funny story, then he should have specified so to avoid confusion. We're not saying that the specific encounter 100% can't happen at all! Just that it's not a very good example of how a Balor would be beaten in a serious game where the DM wasn't handing out victories.
Gemstone 10-03-05, 04:06 AM	In fact, any time godly dice-rolls or DM interference (AKA Deus ex Machina / Divine Intervention / the Hand of God) gets involved with an encounter, you shouldn't use it as an example of how a monster is "easily beatable" by a party. So, should we assume that the party rolls '10' every time? That would make for a more mathematical view of an encounter, but since the majority of battle either ends through a serious of high rolls, or a serious of low rolls (for either side) at least I don't think it's a good idea. Also, any encounter can be easy beatable if the players stop to think about what they're actually facing. If they cast protection from fear, protection from fire etc. the balor would be a quite easy encounter. Say that the wizard readies an action to counterspell all spell-like abilities and voilá, you got one Balor served. This could be achieved through a natural '20' on a knowledge (demons) check. Of course, it would require ranks, but a friendly DM could let you achieve it through a knowledge (arcana) check instead. Also, the +1 vorpal sword is not vorpal through the balors innate ability, since it's listed on the balors possessions (in the Monster Manual at least). Perhaps this is open for interpretation, but at least i believe it to be very clear. So, say that the party bust the demon. Nobody gets a preparation round. If the Balor wins initiative, it will be a bit harder, but if the wizard wins, he can ready a counterspell action and the rest of the party can begin hammering it down. If it has the ability to fly, you need either to keep it on the ground, or have some mighty second artillery, such as either wands of 'any spell that can deal damage', staves or a cleric with some heavy magic prepared. You could also summon some other creatures to keep it on the ground (being grappled by that elder earth elemental really sucks if you need to lift of the ground...) But since most players never stops to do such things as knowledge check, the Balor will probably beat the players to dust with its spell like abilities... I just take my players as reference. He: I should't have died! It had a freakin miss chance! Im so small because Im a halfling and the snow is up to my chest! DM: For the last time, it's a fricking POLAR BEAR that rolled a NATURAL 20, confirmed the hit by not failing because of your miss chance and YES you are on -10 hp, thus DEAD. You die just like everybody else
Elgonn 10-03-05, 04:26 AM	So, should we assume that the party rolls '10' every time? That would make for a more mathematical view of an encounter Actually you can calculate the exact average damage output between any two opponents easily (only tactics complicate things). You don't roll 10.
Gemstone 10-03-05, 04:33 AM	Actually you can calculate the exact average damage output between any two opponents easily (only tactics complicate things). You don't roll 10. sure, but you would have to bring in avrage hit chance in that to. If a player only has 1/20 to hit the balor, split the damage in 20 and see the avrage damage.
Elgonn 10-03-05, 04:45 AM	sure, but you would have to bring in avrage hit chance in that to. If a player only has 1/20 to hit the balor, split the damage in 20 and see the avrage damage. It is more complicated than that. Your not calculating critical hits, threat confirmation, natural 20/1, full attacks and falling effective BAB, weapon enchantments, etc..
Balor von Balorvitch 10-03-05, 11:34 AM	I see nothing wrong about this. I could easily envision it happening, it made for what sounds like a great scene and the player in question had fun. Balor von Balorvich: ...So, the God of War cannot bless a worshipper with accuracy and skill when he invokes said god's name while commiting an act of incredible bravery as a warrior? Wow. Yes Tempest might 'want' the Barbarian to win but would not intervine directly or the vile gods would not allow a Balor to be cheaped out by a stupid god not letting natural combat resolve.
oxybe 10-03-05, 12:48 PM	@ Kothardarastrix: Listen, I'm sick and tired of this defense... it is the worst reason to forget. It's a game, let's add a scoreboard, shinguards, and helmets into it as well! Any good DM will learns to use the rules, whilst still getting your exciting dramatic story. A DM is supposed to be consistent, if not, we might as well go outside and beat each other with wooden swords until we all run out of hit points.... Also if I were to end war and all diseases, I'd cause the world to be overpopulated by more idiots than it has now... yeesh... chill out man... take a deep breath... all i did was give my opinion so what you're saying is that: "the dm played d&d wrong because i said so". look, not everyone will play d&d your way. or my way. there is no 100%, this is the right way to play d&d. i'll agree with you that consistency bring coherence to the fantasy world of d&d, but does that mean "no flexibility". no, it doesnt. heck, since d&d is fantasy, you can't rely on everything being "consistent" (what with dragons, undead, oozes, monsters and mages running around) what the barbarian did wasn't wrong, just a bit more unreal then the norm. what's wrong with a few cool scenes if it makes your players want to play more? if the barb is level 18, im guessing the player must have put in a lot time in this guy and the game. if a dm brings my character in front of a balor naked, i sure as hell hope i stand a chance, otherwise it would just be insulting for me as a player to have the dm single me out and kill me outright. no sane dm would tpk for kicks and giggles. that is not good dm'ing, that is telling your players that you, the dm, are trying to "win" against them at all costs (this is just as bad as munchkinism, but that is a whole diffrent topic). the dm and the players work together to create a story that they can both enjoy. since the dm and the player seem to have enjoyed this scenario, i dont see a problem. would i have played it diffrently? yes. would the single barb have won against the balor? i admit that i would have fudged some of my rolls to side with the barb (since he is outclassed in all manners of speaking), but i would not have been actively trying to off him (although he could still have died, i would at least give him a fighting chance). i dont believe in killing my players because of bad rolls, i off them because of the stupid choices they made (this was obviously not his choice).
Donraj 10-03-05, 01:18 PM	Yes Tempest might 'want' the Barbarian to win but would not intervine directly or the vile gods would not allow a Balor to be cheaped out by a stupid god not letting natural combat resolve. The vile gods don't care. And Tempus is the War god . Blessing warriors in this situation is what he does. Sapp: Donraj, I think you're misunderstanding here. You need to take in the context. The point is, he used that incidence as an example as to how a Balor can be easily defeated. Clearly, it's a bad example. That's all we're saying. Okay, I get that. But a good deal of this seems to be screaming that he's an idiot who baby-hands his players and can't run a monster correctly.
d_nychus 10-03-05, 01:22 PM	Um. He can keep an entire party perma stunned forever. No save. He doesn't need to have more than a single summoned creature or ally around to TPK a party (yes it has some ways to be stopped). Without that ridiculously cheap effect he's a perfectly fine CR 20. That ridiculously cheap effect is hard to pull off at that level, though. If the party loses initiative, doesn't have some sort of magical counter, and has everyone positioned within 40 feet of each other, yeah, it can be very annoying. But if the party has any one of those, the PCs are going to be able to escapes easily, and the balor is suddenly right where the PCs want him and his most powerful spell-like abilities become liabilities thanks to AoOs.
Kothardarastrix 10-03-05, 01:30 PM	@ Kothardarastrix: yeesh... chill out man... take a deep breath... all i did was give my opinion so what you're saying is that: "the dm played d&d wrong because i said so". look, not everyone will play d&d your way. or my way. there is no 100%, this is the right way to play d&d. i'll agree with you that consistency bring coherence to the fantasy world of d&d, but does that mean "no flexibility". no, it doesnt. heck, since d&d is fantasy, you can't rely on everything being "consistent" (what with dragons, undead, oozes, monsters and mages running around) what the barbarian did wasn't wrong, just a bit more unreal then the norm. what's wrong with a few cool scenes if it makes your players want to play more? if the barb is level 18, im guessing the player must have put in a lot time in this guy and the game. if a dm brings my character in front of a balor naked, i sure as hell hope i stand a chance, otherwise it would just be insulting for me as a player to have the dm single me out and kill me outright. No one said that, if the rules don't apply in one instance for one person, then why should the rule apply the next. Unless it's a house rule that when you cry your deities name in a moment of stress, you shouldnt automatically get some kind of magical bonus for no reason to your attack. What I did say though was that a good DM learns to blend rules into an encounter to make a good scene. Allowing the Barbarian to live through an encounter that should have been HARD on a party(4-8 Characters, possibly up to 10) wasn't the first mistake he made, it was FORCING the single character against the BOSS LEVEL Balor. Fudging up the die on the Barbarians behalf is if hes having a bad day against a creature of his ECL. I would tell him after dieing he could be resurrected or make a new 18th level character, if I were this DM, then find a Real Life Epic Level Hulking Hurler and have him throw me into the sun as a trial(by fire).
Elgonn 10-03-05, 02:08 PM	and the balor is suddenly right where the PCs want him and his most powerful spell-like abilities become liabilities thanks to AoOs. A Balor never provokes an AOO for using his spell-like abilities. He automatically succeeds at 'casting on the defensive'.
Sapp 10-03-05, 02:29 PM	So, should we assume that the party rolls '10' every time? That would make for a more mathematical view of an encounter, but since the majority of battle either ends through a serious of high rolls, or a serious of low rolls (for either side) at least I don't think it's a good idea. Also, any encounter can be easy beatable if the players stop to think about what they're actually facing. If they cast protection from fear, protection from fire etc. the balor would be a quite easy encounter. Say that the wizard readies an action to counterspell all spell-like abilities and voilá, you got one Balor served. This could be achieved through a natural '20' on a knowledge (demons) check. Of course, it would require ranks, but a friendly DM could let you achieve it through a knowledge (arcana) check instead. Instead of twisting my intent, please try to see things from my perspective first before criticizing. We don't "assume" anything. Here is the point I was trying to make, explained in the clearest way possible: If a level 15 party rolled nothing but natural 20's against a Balor (for attack and saving throws and even for spell resistance), and the Balor kept rolling natural 1's (for attacks, saves, and spell resistance), would you honestly say, "the Balor is too weak because it can't even beat a party of level 15's" ? No, you attribute luck to the failure of the Balor. That would be a terrible example against the Balor. Now, suppose a god (the DM) personally blesses you for an encounter for some whimsical reason (you did not cast a prayer or miracle, you did not summon him, he just came on the DM's whim), and you beat the Balor... again, that's not a good example of why a Balor is easy to defeat. In fact, it's a terrible example. That's all I'm saying.
Gemstone 10-03-05, 03:29 PM	Instead of twisting my intent, please try to see things from my perspective first before criticizing. We don't "assume" anything. Im seeing it from your way, but assuming nothing but avrage rolls will fail to see if an encounter is balanced or not. But I did not intend to twist your intent :) sorry, my bad.
Raven Dark 10-03-05, 04:47 PM	The barbarian had Monkey Grip. Which, if I remember correctly, allows him to use weapons one size catagory higher without penalty. Where does it say that in the post? I don't see where it says he had Monkey Grip. Maybe I over-looked it. Can you quote it for me? Also, there is still a -2 penalty when using Monkey Grip with a large weapon.
AlanBruce 10-03-05, 06:20 PM	I think the DM in question should've read the entry regarding such a demon and prepared a well thought out strategy. Remember, Balors are one of the highest ranking Tanar'ri. They aren't the top dogs becaus ethey get beaten easilly. Beoing a powerful outsider a sit, and being summoned to another plane, such a demon would be aptly prepared with contingency spells and the like. Not to mention that he could call forth minions to keep the barbarian busy while he taks to the air and casts away. Then we have the whip, the vorpal... that barbarian would not have a chance, really. Perhaps next time, you could send in a Klurichir, who happens to boss Balors around.
Sapp 10-03-05, 07:03 PM	Im seeing it from your way, but assuming nothing but avrage rolls will fail to see if an encounter is balanced or not. But I did not intend to twist your intent :) sorry, my bad. Yes, I understand what you're saying, but my point really was that if two people were playing... Poker, for example, no amount of skill will save you if luck is consistently against you. If you get garbage for every hand while your opponent hasn't gotten anything worse than a straight, then no one in their right mind could possibly say, "You suck at poker." Sure poker takes skill and some experience in psychology, bluffing, and mind-reading, but if luck's against you, there's not much you can do, and no one can really blame you for that. This isn't to say that everyone should get the exact same hand in poker. Obviously, the game doesn't work that way. The same applies to D&D, you can't just assume average rolls. Risk/chance is part of the game. My point had nothing to do with getting rid of the risk factor. It's just to say that if a monster has been getting bad rolls, you don't just think, "Oh, that monsters a lot easier than I thought!" You think, "Oh, I've been getting lucky." That's why I'm saying that lucky encounters (along with encounters involving DM/Deific intervention) shouldn't count as good examples as to why a monster is easy to defeat. I don't think a Balor should be much higher than CR 20, because from what I see, a Solar (CR 23) can defeat two Balors (CR 22). If Balors were any higher CR, then two of them should be a match for a Solar (which they aren't from my perspective).
d_nychus 10-03-05, 10:58 PM	A Balor never provokes an AOO for using his spell-like abilities. He automatically succeeds at 'casting on the defensive'. Ah, that's a good point. I'd forgotten about that when I posted. Still, a balor in melee is considerably more in danger than a balor blasting enemies from afar with spell-like abilities. DR 15 and 290 hp is not really that good against enemies that can routinely do 30 to 40 points of damage per hit, and that's not counting the spellcasters. Using blasphemy can be a very effective gambit for the balor under the right circumstances, but the risk can also be quite substancial against PCs of the appropriately levels. Getting the balor into melee works more the party's advantage than the balor's even with the vorpal sword, and getting into melee is going to be the result of a failed group blasphemy. Even if he misses just one PC, the balor is faced with a difficult choice, either to keep dazing and take damage from the PC that escaped, or try to use his spell-like abilities against the escaped PC and 'release' the others for at least a round, if not more.
Elgonn 10-03-05, 11:11 PM	Using blasphemy can be a very effective gambit for the balor under the right circumstances, but the risk can also be quite substancial against PCs of the appropriately levels. The point is that 'at will blasphemy' is a ridiculous ability to grant a creature. The spell is already mechanically horrific but a never ending supply is just taking it to another level. It does nothing against Epic characters that might face multiple Balors at once. It is a virtual 'I win' button against low level characters that unfortunately had the DM throw a challenge a few CR higher than their average level. Even 19th level characters will take stackable strength damage that will remove the need to maintain casting it while he coup-de-graces the party. Without that ability he's a pretty decent CR 20. With it he's good CR??. Imagine if the Balor had an item(s)/feat(s) that increased his caster level by 4-5.
Fiery_Overlord 10-03-05, 11:56 PM	Personal divine intervention is a great example of what is known as an "exception" in standard D&D which is the topic of discussion. You can't accurately use exceptions as examples how things usually work in the context of this debate. Sometimes the earth is struck by a meteor causing more 95% of all life to go extinct, this is not a good example of what happens on Tuesdays even if the original event happened on a Tuesday. Thank you for your time.
d_nychus 10-04-05, 02:04 AM	The point is that 'at will blasphemy' is a ridiculous ability to grant a creature. The spell is already mechanically horrific but a never ending supply is just taking it to another level.. It does nothing against Epic characters that might face multiple Balors at once. It is a virtual 'I win' button against low level characters that unfortunately had the DM throw a challenge a few CR higher than their average level. Even 19th level characters will take stackable strength damage that will remove the need to maintain casting it while he coup-de-graces the party. Uh, the Strength reduction does not stack with multiple castings. It is not damage. The phrase "The effects are cumulative and concurrent," refers to the multiple effects of a single casting of the spell. That is, a character who is 5 HD lower than the caster level is paralyzed, weakened, and dazed all at the same time, even if some of the effects are relatively irrelevent. Casting the spell multiple times will lead to the largest Strength reduction sticking, and the rest pretty much ignored until after the duration of the largest reduction. At the most, you're talking about 12 Strength drop. At that level, that's a pretty big hindrance, but for most character, that will in no way immobilize you. The worst case scenario I can think up is the balor knowing the PCs are coming well before they know where he is, him summoning up a brother balor, either him or the other one catching the PCs off guard all grouped nicely together, winning initiative, getting through any SR or magical defenses the PCs have against blasphemy, and the other balor walking through slashing everyone's heads off. That is a ton of ifs in there, and honestly relies on the PCs almost being purposely stupid for their level. With effects like foresight and contingency in play, it will never happen. Without that ability he's a pretty decent CR 20. With it he's good CR??. Maybe a CR 21 at the most, if you honestly believe that one spell makes all the difference. at level 21, the spell-like ability is completely useless against the PCs. The only time it would matter would be in 'boss fights.' Imagine if the Balor had an item(s)/feat(s) that increased his caster level by 4-5. That same thing goes for a lot of creatures or characters with a lot of other spell-like abilities or even straight spells. Granted, the blasphemy-ish spells tend to have the most direct offensive gain through such items, or feats but there are worse abuses (cleric or druid buffing with a bead of karma comes to mind). That's why I always eye such items and abilities with suspicion.
Donraj 10-04-05, 02:19 AM	Where does it say that in the post? I don't see where it says he had Monkey Grip. Maybe I over-looked it. Can you quote it for me? Also, there is still a -2 penalty when using Monkey Grip with a large weapon. He was a regular human barbarian with Power Attack, Cleave, Monkey's Grip, Intimidating Rage, and Unarmed Strike. He had a moral bonus to hit because of an image from Tempus. Towards the bottom of the second page. Kothardarastrix: No one said that, if the rules don't apply in one instance for one person, then why should the rule apply the next. Unless it's a house rule that when you cry your deities name in a moment of stress, you shouldnt automatically get some kind of magical bonus for no reason to your attack. So there must be clearly defined rules and mechanics for a deity hearing a worshipper in a moment of need and granting a small blessing to see him through. :rolleyes: That would certainly leech a good deal of the fun out of it.
Kothardarastrix 10-04-05, 04:30 AM	Don't even think about it, a Deity doesnt have time to actually intervene into the welfare of a single Barbarian follower, maybe a nation. Had he been epic and had at least 10 epic divine prestige class levels, I'd say, "Sure go ahead." So basically it was sarcasm... and it isn't about leeching the fun.
Donraj 10-04-05, 04:48 AM	Don't even think about it, a Deity doesnt have time to actually intervene into the welfare of a single Barbarian follower, maybe a nation. Had he been epic and had at least 10 epic divine prestige class levels, I'd say, "Sure go ahead." So basically it was sarcasm... and it isn't about leeching the fun. *nods* Because individual worshipers, especially ones that are not incredibly powerful demigods, are between a deity's notice. Riigghhttt. :rolleyes:
Kothardarastrix 10-04-05, 11:40 AM	Epic level doesnt qualify you to be a demideity, most deities have about 40 or more levels. You want to discuss more on why the deity wouldn't come down and bother with the barbarian, we can move this discussion to the Deities & The Planes board. Now to finish this part on why the deity wouldn't/shouldn't be giving out Divine bonuses so randomly is, it's not fair for one player to get a magic +10 bonus just for saying his gods name.
Donraj 10-04-05, 01:50 PM	Now to finish this part on why the deity wouldn't/shouldn't be giving out Divine bonuses so randomly is, it's not fair for one player to get a magic +10 bonus just for saying his gods name. It is if its fun and enhances the game. Anyway, I don't believe he ever specified exactly what the bonus was, so you're kind of ranting over nothing. Epic level doesnt qualify you to be a demideity, most deities have about 40 or more levels. You and I have very different opinions of what constitutes a demi-deity. As far as I'm concerned, once you're in the thirties you are capable of challenging a god, if not necessarily succeeding.
tiercel 10-04-05, 04:34 PM	Does the CR assume you will happen to have good aligned weapons with you, a red wizard with spell penetration and improved spell penetration, or several rounds to buff before the battle? It seems like if the Balor is played intelligently, and more importantly protects itself and the area it is encountered in, it's going to be very hard to kill it and survive its death throes.Alright, getting back to the OP.... The fact that the Balor has significant defenses doesn't mean that it is assumed your players can blow right through them. In fact, what is the point of giving a balor DR and SR if you are going to assume every PC will be able to go through them like a greatsword through wet tissue paper? As it is, they are supposed to represent a challenge: SR 28 means that a full 18th level caster needs to roll a 10 to break SR, with no extra boosts at all. Many high level characters will at least take the Spell Penetration feat because of the number of monsters that have SR faced at those levels, and this doesn't count items or class abilities that boost caster level. Having a 55%+ chance to break the SR of a boss monster isn't crazy; it's what SR means. Besides, there is magic (buffing, summoning, many conjurations) that isn't affected by SR (especially if you use the <bleeped> Orb spells from Complete Arcane, and other similar "Conjurations," as well as assay resistance and other SR-nerfing tools, bah, at which point you should be lowering the balor's CR). DR? Well, even a middling Knowledge (Planes) check could let the party know that cold iron hurts at least some demons, and it's not a big stretch to imagine you might need a Good-aligned weapon to properly hurt a walking incarnation of Evil. Align weapon is only a 2nd level spell, so you can respond even if you're not already packing a holy weapon of some kind. Worst case scenario: anyone who is relying on melee damage to be viable in combat at 18th level should be able to do a lot more than 15 points of damage per hit. Let's be frank here: the balor really is a boss monster. The Monster Manual is basically aimed at pre-Epic, and the balor is getting close to "as big as it gets." To that extent, the balor CR should be treated a little bit like dragon CR -- it probably assumes that the PCs have at least some warning of what they are going to be facing. Also, for big Boss fights, the PCs have another advantage over the usual CR system.... remember that CR normally represents challenge for a party of PCs that is facing of order 4 encounters per day. For Big Boss events at high levels, it may be a one-fight day (or possibly two, if it has some minions/guards of significant CR). There is a big, big difference between fighting something tough, knowing you may have to fight again that day, and taking all your best shots at the thing you are fighting because it is the Boss and you are definitely going "home" (for some value of safe "home") after the fight. (This is, I think, the biggest deal with dragon CRs... if you beat the dragon, you're probably going to stop and rest after.) That said, I will say that putting the death throes on top of everything else does seem a bit harsh -- after a tough fight, "yea, we won, we wo--" BOOM. There goes most of the survivors.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-04-05, 07:13 PM	That barbarian should have died a horrific death. Why? First, it is debatable as to whether someone can even use a balor's personal greatsword. A balor gets it as a racial benefit, not as personal equipment--for all we know, it vanishes whenever it leaves the balor's hand and is summoned forth when he needs it! The rules aren't clear on the issue. Second (and this is the important one) a balor's greatsword is LARGED-SIZE. How does a medium-sized barbarian wield it at all? The "handedness" of it is too much for him! This whole thread is rather inane. :rolleyes: I have a stream of four letter words for this god forsaken problem. I have stated two fricken times the dang barbarian has MONKEY'S GRIP! As well, I deemed that the blade could be wielded but, it would not stay in the plane when the Balor died.
Elgonn 10-04-05, 07:14 PM	Uh, the Strength reduction does not stack with multiple castings. It is not damage. You might want to note that your 'reasonable' reading of the spell is at odds with the RAW. Also I think you would be surprised how easy that spell is to get off. 40' Spread is the best AE in the game. I've had people use the spell without LOS or normal LOE to all their targets.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-04-05, 07:16 PM	alright... time for my :twocents: 1 - this is a game first and foremost. not everyone plays it the same way. houserules exist. dice fugding exists. dm's favouring an exciting and dramatic story over "rules" exist. no two dm's will play a high-level encounter the same way ever. get over it. 2 - no one person on this board can play a balor perfectly. ever. you will never have a wis or int high enough to play it. only a venerable person (ie. your grandfather or father) who has inherent bonuses(which are magic, and thus non-existant in our world) and a natural 18 in those stats could come close to playing the balor. since virtually everyone here has between 8-14 in every stat, if your int + wis are over 20, stop playing d&d and go invent world peace, we are in dire need of it and fast. maybe stop global warming and cure all diseases while you're at it. 3 - why can't a dm go go the literary route and embellish a little bit? personally, i would like to have been at that game. also, a TPK should be used when the entire party does the "stupid" thing, but the barb was in a hopeless situation and he had virtually no other choice, so he attacked (natural barb instinct). the single barb overcame the odds (remember CR 20 means that the balor is a challenge for four ECL 20, not just one) and was victorious. heck, if james bond couldn't overcome the odds, he would have been dead many movies ago. same goes for your fav books. ok, so that's my three cents. and yeah, a balor is CR 20 worthy if the party is well made and balanced. higher CR if the party is sub-par and lower CR if the party is completely min/maxed. the CR is never set in stone in my books, its just a guideline. Thank you!
Ront Iron-Roar 10-04-05, 07:36 PM	Alright, let's forget it! All we did were two things. 1) Show how much free time our fellow user's have. 2) Keep this thread going. So let's accept it as it was. A bad opinion with poor supportive info.
Kothardarastrix 10-04-05, 08:19 PM	Personally I'd say the Balors weapons disippate after he releases them, since the only reason they changed the name of them to Balors from threat of a lawsuit, originally they were called Balrogs. You and I have very different opinions of what constitutes a demi-deity. As far as I'm concerned, once you're in the thirties you are capable of challenging a god, if not necessarily succeeding. Okay try playtesting that theory.
BladeDrinker 10-04-05, 08:21 PM	My biggest problem with the Balor was that it can immediately win Initiative and Dominate the party fighter and gets him to attack the cleric. One rounds 2 and 3 he then implodes the wizard and rogue, and then goes back to the cleric and fighter with Fire Storm or one of his other spell-like abilities after that. A level 18 fighter with Wisdom 12 and a cloak of resistance +5 has a Will save of 12. So he has to roll a 15 or be dominated. A wizard and rogue with Constitution scores of 16 and a cloak of resistance +5 need a 13 to avoid the Implosion. In other words, if you get average rolls you will probably lose two characters and risk a TPK if you don't get at least one lucky roll. So I guess it isn't quite as bad as I thought, but I'll still be happier with my non-save or die monster instead. And easy on Ront Iron-Roar. Yes, I don't think he fairly represented what a Balor is capable of, but I'm sure everyone has played that style of game sometime.
Donraj 10-04-05, 10:17 PM	Personally I'd say the Balors weapons disippate after he releases them, since the only reason they changed the name of them to Balors from threat of a lawsuit, originally they were called Balrogs. I think its more fun to say that it lasts at least a few minutes after it leaves the Balor's hands, and might even stay behind if its killed to corrupt the slayer and try to turn it into a replacement for its former wielder. Okay try playtesting that theory. Given the widespread consensus that the official stats for deities are ridiculously weak and don't take Epic rules into account is that a challenge you really want to make?
Kothardarastrix 10-04-05, 10:33 PM	Yes... yes I do
Donraj 10-05-05, 01:24 AM	Well, hope someone does. I don't intend to.
Yokinobu 10-05-05, 01:55 AM	Ok, I change the "The balor was defeated because it was played stupid" to "The Balor was defeated because stupid and overpowered houserules, DM intervention and was played stupid". It's sad that people take this stuff so seriously. Honestly, how stupid and overpowered the houserules are, are for the players and the DM to decide. Instead of saying, "Oh, you were using houserules, nevermind. Back to the subject..." You had to hound him and criticize the situation. If the players and the DM are enjoying themselves, then I say go for it. Way to waste thread space.
Gemstone 10-05-05, 08:07 AM	It's sad that people take this stuff so seriously. Honestly, how stupid and overpowered the houserules are, are for the players and the DM to decide. Instead of saying, "Oh, you were using houserules, nevermind. Back to the subject..." You had to hound him and criticize the situation. If the players and the DM are enjoying themselves, then I say go for it. Way to waste thread space. Second that!
DungeonMaster 10-05-05, 09:03 AM	Using blasphemy can be a very effective gambit for the balor under the right circumstances, but the risk can also be quite substancial against PCs of the appropriately levels. Getting the balor into melee works more the party's advantage than the balor's even with the vorpal sword, and getting into melee is going to be the result of a failed group blasphemy. Even if he misses just one PC, the balor is faced with a difficult choice, either to keep dazing and take damage from the PC that escaped, or try to use his spell-like abilities against the escaped PC and 'release' the others for at least a round, if not more. No, not at all. First of all he can summon another balor which can do the exact same thing - blasphemy or can happily kill stunned PCs. Secondly the 3.5 balor has quickened telekinesis and can throw that "one straggler" telekinetically into the area of the blasphemy. And for that matter if it does manage to stun them it can telekinetically throw stunned people around for damage and through it's reach, provoking AoOs. If you're caught in blasphemy, particularly 3.5 blasphemy, it can be very bad. It's irrelevant though. High level parties that have made it to that level playing with an intelligent DM have so many options to defeat a balor that they shouldn't ever be caught without some of the following: -astral projection -foresight -antimagic field -high spell resistance on some members (at least!) -freedom (cures stun condition) -cube of force -pocket dimensions to flee into (rod of security, magnificent mansion, etc...) -summoned/called creatures that are immune to stun (elementals, etc...) -holy word -banishment -spell immunity and the list goes on. If anything I think the 3.5 balor is weak because it lost "symbol" so it can't protect it's lair. It basically has no tricks to play when the players who are prepared to fight it go for it's throat, all it can do is run like hell. And even that's not assured with dimension lock + forcecage. Or run like the abyss.
oxybe 10-05-05, 09:16 AM	@ Ront Iron-Roar: hey, just stating my :twocents: , it just happend to be same as yours ;) @ Kothardarastrix: if deities can't help anyone below level 30, what the ____ are they doing even existing? very few non-deities/demi-gods exist. very few epic characters exist. only a handfull of level 20's are around(and this is in a high level game). i highly doubt those uber-chars really need the help of someone a paltry 10 levels higher (by level 30, levels are meaningless). when they are in trouble so bad, they call out to someone... @Yokinobu i third this motion
Kothardarastrix 10-05-05, 10:05 AM	I didn't say he couldnt help, but handing out random +10 attack bonuses?! Think about this, how would the barbarians death affect the deity? Fact is it wouldnt, unless he was maybe questing for an artifact that did affect his deity in one way or another.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-05-05, 10:09 AM	if deities can't help anyone below level 30, what the ____ are they doing even existing? very few non-deities/demi-gods exist. very few epic characters exist. only a handfull of level 20's are around(and this is in a high level game). i highly doubt those uber-chars really need the help of someone a paltry 10 levels higher (by level 30, levels are meaningless). when they are in trouble so bad, they call out to someone... ok, it is ok Tempust to come down and assisst the Barbarian! Yea Heros!...... But what if Demogorgons like ":censored: this i can't afford to lose one of my most powerful agents on the material plane and recalls the Vorpal back to the Abyss! lol" the party would be like "no no, you can't do that". Or what when your slaughtering an entire orc city and Gruumish smites them! Both are more likely to call for interventation than augmenting the barbarian. No slight to Ront, i am just aganist using divine intervetion. Its ok to use once but don't make a habait of it. Oh and I hate epic level characters who go around with there epicness boasting friends with gods! I make it a point to kill them if i can. (Coup de Grace while they sleep with a power attacked pick! Roll Fort vs DC 80 [Average] or die Munchkan!)
Ront Iron-Roar 10-05-05, 11:07 AM	I didn't say he couldnt help, but handing out random +10 attack bonuses?! Think about this, how would the barbarians death affect the deity? Fact is it wouldnt, unless he was maybe questing for an artifact that did affect his deity in one way or another. Actually dude, it was more or less a +1 bonus on attacks,damage, and saves and the affects of symbol of pain were nullified. It was more or less Tempus encouraging the Barbarian with an image of himself upon his steed in battle. Not, channeling divine power through the barbarian. This morale bonus only happened that instant in campaign. Tempus is just the Barbarians battle cry. Just like Ront, though Ront uses it as his Kai Shout in addition. And the Vorpral weapon faded when the Balor was killed and banished back to the abyss. As well guys, just quit bashing the way the game played out. It does nothing to change what happened and all your doing is wasting time. I don't have as much time as you guys do to study books. I have School, Realitives to help, and I RP on AOL regularly as well in addition to being on a few other forums. As well, my groups don't meet that often.
slainethehornedgod 10-05-05, 01:25 PM	I support you Ront. Don't let all the negative posts spoil your fun. You should run games that you and your PCs like. Just try to keep in mind that messageboards tend to be pretty critical. Or should I say 'petty' and critical? :rolleyes: As far as the OP is concerned. It's been my experience that any encounter at levels 15+ tends to be one sided if someone gets surprised or doesn't have time to prep. The balor might be closer to CR 21 or 22 but that really depends on what type of group he runs into. A prepared group with a good cleric and paladin will mop a balor up with no problem while a unprepared evil group that gets surprised might result in a TPK. The OP is doing the right thing by running a couple of test combats and my recommendation is to adjust the balor to the group. If he's too powerful then you can prepare the group ahead of time and give them surprise or if he's too weak you can give the balor some magic items and armor to improve his CR a bit. You might also decide that a balor is just too much and tweak a marilith or gab instead. All are equally valid choices. Let us know what you decide...
oxybe 10-05-05, 09:15 PM	But what if Demogorgons like " this i can't afford to lose one of my most powerful agents on the material plane and recalls the Vorpal back to the Abyss! lol" the party would be like "no no, you can't do that". Or what when your slaughtering an entire orc city and Gruumish smites them! Both are more likely to call for interventation than augmenting the barbarian. No slight to Ront, i am just aganist using divine intervetion. Its ok to use once but don't make a habait of it. i never said demorgogon couldn't intervene. im just saying that at level 18, you should have some contacts (if minor) in the planes. if a war deity has a level 18 barb as a follower, i can very easily imagine him giving the guy a hand in combat. @slainethehornedgod: yeah, level 15+ is often one-sided fights, depending on who had the most prep beforehand. a well optimised level 12 party will decimate with the right prep. ill agree that a tweaked marilith may pose enough of a treath if the balor is too strong for them. ill also agree with you on the test & test again method. i find this is critical at low (under 5) and high (15+) levels to give a good challenge. at the lower levels the party is relatively weak and vulnerable, while at the higher ones, you can't pull your punches like you did at the start of their career. the mid levels aren't littered with horrible monster powers so you can breath easier (but don't stop the testing). many a test has ended up with TPKs...
d_nychus 10-06-05, 03:31 AM	You might want to note that your 'reasonable' reading of the spell is at odds with the RAW. How? Seriously, there is nothing in that spell that is stackable through multiple castings. I think you are misunderstanding just what I theorized you were in the last post. Also I think you would be surprised how easy that spell is to get off. 40' Spread is the best AE in the game. I've had people use the spell without LOS or normal LOE to all their targets. Good for them. I have used this spell and its cousins multiple times, and while it is powerful against those it actually affects, it usually is hard to get everyone in a group with this spell, especially with typically highly mobile high level party. I have never seen a high level group get completely caught in an AoE that was under a mile in radius. No, not at all. First of all he can summon another balor which can do the exact same thing - blasphemy or can happily kill stunned PCs. Secondly the 3.5 balor has quickened telekinesis and can throw that "one straggler" telekinetically into the area of the blasphemy. And for that matter if it does manage to stun them it can telekinetically throw stunned people around for damage and through it's reach, provoking AoOs. If you're caught in blasphemy, particularly 3.5 blasphemy, it can be very bad. It's irrelevant though. High level parties that have made it to that level playing with an intelligent DM have so many options to defeat a balor that they shouldn't ever be caught without some of the following: -astral projection -foresight -antimagic field -high spell resistance on some members (at least!) -freedom (cures stun condition) -cube of force -pocket dimensions to flee into (rod of security, magnificent mansion, etc...) -summoned/called creatures that are immune to stun (elementals, etc...) -holy word -banishment -spell immunity and the list goes on. If anything I think the 3.5 balor is weak because it lost "symbol" so it can't protect it's lair. It basically has no tricks to play when the players who are prepared to fight it go for it's throat, all it can do is run like hell. And even that's not assured with dimension lock + forcecage. Or run like the abyss. First off, telekinesis does not work that way, as moving people around does not make them provoke AoOs. You have to move, not be moved. Second, which is it? Is the balor stronger because 3.5 blasphemy is TEH OMG BROK3N!!11!! or weak because he no longer has the annoyingly overversatile 8-spells-for-the-price-of-one symbol spell?
DungeonMaster 10-10-05, 03:35 AM	I remembered this thread... First off, telekinesis does not work that way, as moving people around does not make them provoke AoOs. You have to move, not be moved. Sure it does and no you don't have to move. The precedent is the bull-rush maneuver where you are forcibly moved and incure attacks of opportunity. We've discussed this before D. Second, which is it? Is the balor stronger because 3.5 blasphemy is TEH OMG BROK3N!!11!! or weak because he no longer has the annoyingly overversatile 8-spells-for-the-price-of-one symbol spell? Weaker because symbol is so good for campaign style D &D. For kick-down-the-door D&D the 3.5 balor is the stronger. The brokeness of 3.5 blasphemy doesn't factor here, it's the quickened telekinesis that makes the difference. The balor's going to stun everyone of importance in 3rd or 3.5 if it curses loud enough but in 3.5 that's likely going to have the side effect of hurting summoned/called/leadership minions much more.