BBEG as a group? [Archive] - Wizards Community

BBEG as a group? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cerberuspuppy
09-17-05, 04:27 AM We're all familiar with the concept of the big villain, but have you ever made it a group instead of an individual?

Granted, groups usually have leaders, and a group of villains is more likely to be subordinate to a more powerful outside individual. For example, a mercenary adventuring party hired by the BBEG is not the main villian, their employer is.

Regardless of whether there is another power behind the group itself, have you ever used anything like this as a DM, or played against it as a player?

I remember one time when the party I was in had to fight an evil party, but we killed almost all of them in that fight, and the survivors didn't become recurring villains.

I have had some interesting ideas along these lines, including:

A Mind Flayer Inquisition
Described on p 188 of the MM in the Society section, an Inquisition is a small group formed for a specific purpose, and operates in a manner similar to an adventuring party. This could make for an interesting BBEG for a high-level party. It's different, and presents a challenge, especially since Illithid are very smart and well organized.

The particular group I had in mind was a Wizard, a Telepath, a Monk and a Cleric. The Monk would be especially nasty if he could get Inertial Armor.

Twins (or Triplets, or siblings in general)
I'm sure somebody has done something with this, if only as a twist on the Dragonlance thing, but one idea I've had is a pair of twins, a Fighter and a Sorcerer or Wizard. It becomes even more interesting if they have some sort of telepathic link. There are possibilities for RP and tactics. As we all know, casters are much more effective if they have some muscle to cover them.

Variants on this idea include a mated pair, packmates, littermates, etc. Or, you could make them both Tieflings or something, just to spice it up a bit. I can actually think of an established example- the three Hags that show up in many settings, including Eberron.

The Evil Party
What if the main recurring villains of the story arc are simply another group of adventurers? It starts out as competition for a job or an item, then becomes a rivalry, and eventually, with help from a completely opposite moral philosophy, becomes a bitter battle fought several times before its dramatic conclusion.

There are some great things about this idea. It can be implemented at any levels, low, medium or high. It inherently involves the PCs. What if, for example, the bad guy Fighter kills the PC rogue, then escapes? It's going to be quite a battle when these two parties cross paths again. Things like that can happen, and you don't have to plan for it at all. What if the bad guys work as a team while the players do not? This could serve as motivation to get the PCs organized.

The bad guy party takes some work. You have to build an entire party with multiple levels and keep advancing them (roughly) with the party. You also have to develop (at least) 4 or 5 characters, but once they are established, it shouldn't be too hard RP them. Overall, I think it's worthwhile. Maybe it's not something to do in every game you ever run, but it can work very well.

Cults
This is a little closer to the standard model, as cults usually have a central leader. Still, the inner circle of the cult could still be a small group of roughly equal power. Say, for example, the leader is a 7th level cleric, and the inner circle is a Fighter, a Warlock, and a Wizard, all of 5th level.

Similar to a cult is an individual with a retinue. I have a few ideas in this vein, including an artificer with a golem arm who has a pair of decked-out warforged enforcers and a Blue goblin lackey. :D Another is a wizard with a pet half-fiend manticore (equipped with a brooch of shielding) and hobgoblin blackguard lieutennant.

Organizations
On a related note to the small group of main villains, there is the idea of an organization as the recurring villain. Every setting has something you can use, from the Red Wizards to the Emerald Claw. I'm sure a few Eberron games have even used the Church of the Silver Flame for this role.

So, what do you guys think of this idea? Have you done anything like it? Or played against something similar? Are there any setups in particular you'd like to discuss, or ideas you'd like to share?
howlingwolf
09-17-05, 05:16 AM Vengeful families are a very good source of surprise BBEG's. Especially further down the line in PC's careers.

That guy that was stealing wagons of gold at first level, who you turned into a sword-kebab, just happens to be the son of a bigshot warlord who has a legion of angry people with big swords to come and claim revenge on you at the lofty heights of level ten.
Hedstrong
09-17-05, 11:16 AM In one of my earlier campaigns i used a group of twelve cleric\sorcerers, known as "The Council". Tehy did send out mercenaries and various followers of their actuall rligion (not a cult per se), but eventually the party did faace them as BBEG.
dok
09-17-05, 02:56 PM I've created rival groups (not opponents, but rivals) more than once in the past.

Usually, they come together slowly, as various famous NPCs run into each other over time, though in one case, I simply introduced the group ("The Lords of Iron") as a whole.

The Lords of Iron were built around a vague concept of all being evil, and all having some "iron" theme: the wizard was an artificer who built constructs, the rogue was a half-Iron Golem (MMII), and the fighter was just a Warrior of Darkness who led a mercenary army.

Another group I've been toying with (but never statted) is "Them". "They" would operate in a fairly open, relatively uncontrolled area, as a group of bounty hunters, lawful individuals who brought in wanted criminals for rewards, or rescued kidnapped victims. Again, its a three 'person' group: A Doppleganger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm) Mindspy, a Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) Warshaper, and an Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) Telepath. Their fame is derived from the fact that even though someone comes in during broad daylight to collect the bounties, no one really remembers who it was, or what they looked like. They would work equally well as allies, rivals, or enemies to a PCs group.
VampiricBloodlustNemesis
09-18-05, 05:23 AM Please Post The Stats For The "lords Of Iron" They Sound Sweet!
Mithral Icesilver
09-18-05, 01:51 PM I did toy with the idea once of an advancing group as an opponent - lead by an albino arcanoloth with an affinity for displacer beasts. He was known as Conjunctix.

I thought of him at three levels - one as a normal arcanoloth Hexblade 3, with a hyperintelligent (for a displacer beast) Wiz 5 displacer beast companion known as Gehennix. At the second level, he became half-Pyroclastic Dragon (via a backfired Disciple of Ashardalon ritual), had gained seven levels, Gehennix had gained three more wizard levels and four levels of Acolyte of the Skin, and a sorcerous displacer beast had joined the party, one known as Carcerix at level 5. At the third level of difficulty, he had had a displacer beast's hide grafted to him, granting him a permanent displacement effect (and incidentally removing all trace of his albinism except for the red eyes), was now a level 15 Hexblade/Geometer 5, Gehennix was now Wiz 12/Acolyte of the Skin 10, and Carcerix was Sor 6/Acolyte of the Skin 5. They would've been pretty challenging, but I never did implement him.
cerberuspuppy
09-18-05, 04:20 PM I might do some write ups for the ideas I presented above. I have been thinking of writing some modules anyway.
VampiricBloodlustNemesis
09-18-05, 04:26 PM Write Those Up!
General_Ridley
09-18-05, 04:38 PM I've toyed with the idea. I had one idea where the characters are sapped of nearly all their memories with Programmed Amnesia scrolls by 4 BBEGs. To regain their basest of memories, they must kill the weakest BBEG. Continue on until killing the final one gives you your full memories.

The BBEGs were:
Wild Elf Sorceror 5
Changeling Wizard/Mindbender/Wild Mage (level 10)
A Human True Necromance (Uncertain on what the levels were, but it was Wiz/Cleric with some TN levels)
and a NE Gray Elf Wiz/Druid/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge. (Level 20, the order and amounts giving the ability to cast 9th level spells in both classes)

my favorite BBEGG ever.
Arae'Kol Da'Ato
09-18-05, 04:58 PM Hmmm.....I wonder if anyone has ever statted the Linear Guild from OOTS. :confused:
Dragonklaw82
09-18-05, 05:00 PM I think of all BBEG encounters as group encounters, because any self respecting villain would surround himself with a retinue of bodyguards or minions, or as I like to call them, "extra hit points".
VampiricBloodlustNemesis
09-18-05, 05:03 PM hmmmmmm........
VampiricBloodlustNemesis
09-18-05, 09:05 PM they would definately own hardcore.
cerberuspuppy
09-18-05, 10:10 PM I think of all BBEG encounters as group encounters, because any self respecting villain would surround himself with a retinue of bodyguards or minions, or as I like to call them, "extra hit points".

This is true. Hmm... Maybe another thread...
VampiricBloodlustNemesis
09-18-05, 10:32 PM yes i agree
digoraccoon
09-19-05, 09:41 AM There was a short lived BBEG group that I had called "Death Corps". It was a band of villians with a common goal to find these ancient stones that combined to form an artifact capable of granting "wishes". The group was on equal terms, though they elected one as their leader just for organizational purposes. Short lived group because they backstabbed each other halfway through the campaign and the PCs severely shortened the lives of the surviving group. ;)
VampiricBloodlustNemesis
09-19-05, 03:17 PM shall i make an unofficial competition for merc/BBEG groups?

these all sound too good to pass up......
shadevarr
10-07-05, 03:49 PM Heh, I am currently working on a group of corrupted aracanaloths whose goal is to call forth the far realms into the lower planes. each of the 6 is twisted in their own way. Like an arcanaloth illithid in Carceri, an arcanaloth with levels in alienist in pandemonium, one with the psudonatural template probably in the grey waste and I am still working on the rest of them. The scary thing is if their plan succeeds then the outer planes as a whole become an outpost of the far realms as it continues expanding until the whole multiverse is incorporated within it. I get somewhat scared when I think "what if the PCs fail?"
woozygremlin
10-07-05, 09:54 PM I've also used rival or enemy groups on occasion, and in fact prefer them to single villains if for no other reason than the fact that they can institute more complex tactics. The backstabbing and stealing typical of evil characters can be curbed to a remarkable degree by having well-defined goals, a strong leader and solid infrastructure.

I often pattern such groups on the adventurers themselves, not designing the villains to KILL the characters necessarily (I find metagaming as detestible in DMs as I do in players), but to create unique and interesting situations for them to face.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cerberuspuppy 09-17-05, 04:27 AM	We're all familiar with the concept of the big villain, but have you ever made it a group instead of an individual? Granted, groups usually have leaders, and a group of villains is more likely to be subordinate to a more powerful outside individual. For example, a mercenary adventuring party hired by the BBEG is not the main villian, their employer is. Regardless of whether there is another power behind the group itself, have you ever used anything like this as a DM, or played against it as a player? I remember one time when the party I was in had to fight an evil party, but we killed almost all of them in that fight, and the survivors didn't become recurring villains. I have had some interesting ideas along these lines, including: A Mind Flayer Inquisition Described on p 188 of the MM in the Society section, an Inquisition is a small group formed for a specific purpose, and operates in a manner similar to an adventuring party. This could make for an interesting BBEG for a high-level party. It's different, and presents a challenge, especially since Illithid are very smart and well organized. The particular group I had in mind was a Wizard, a Telepath, a Monk and a Cleric. The Monk would be especially nasty if he could get Inertial Armor. Twins (or Triplets, or siblings in general) I'm sure somebody has done something with this, if only as a twist on the Dragonlance thing, but one idea I've had is a pair of twins, a Fighter and a Sorcerer or Wizard. It becomes even more interesting if they have some sort of telepathic link. There are possibilities for RP and tactics. As we all know, casters are much more effective if they have some muscle to cover them. Variants on this idea include a mated pair, packmates, littermates, etc. Or, you could make them both Tieflings or something, just to spice it up a bit. I can actually think of an established example- the three Hags that show up in many settings, including Eberron. The Evil Party What if the main recurring villains of the story arc are simply another group of adventurers? It starts out as competition for a job or an item, then becomes a rivalry, and eventually, with help from a completely opposite moral philosophy, becomes a bitter battle fought several times before its dramatic conclusion. There are some great things about this idea. It can be implemented at any levels, low, medium or high. It inherently involves the PCs. What if, for example, the bad guy Fighter kills the PC rogue, then escapes? It's going to be quite a battle when these two parties cross paths again. Things like that can happen, and you don't have to plan for it at all. What if the bad guys work as a team while the players do not? This could serve as motivation to get the PCs organized. The bad guy party takes some work. You have to build an entire party with multiple levels and keep advancing them (roughly) with the party. You also have to develop (at least) 4 or 5 characters, but once they are established, it shouldn't be too hard RP them. Overall, I think it's worthwhile. Maybe it's not something to do in every game you ever run, but it can work very well. Cults This is a little closer to the standard model, as cults usually have a central leader. Still, the inner circle of the cult could still be a small group of roughly equal power. Say, for example, the leader is a 7th level cleric, and the inner circle is a Fighter, a Warlock, and a Wizard, all of 5th level. Similar to a cult is an individual with a retinue. I have a few ideas in this vein, including an artificer with a golem arm who has a pair of decked-out warforged enforcers and a Blue goblin lackey. :D Another is a wizard with a pet half-fiend manticore (equipped with a brooch of shielding) and hobgoblin blackguard lieutennant. Organizations On a related note to the small group of main villains, there is the idea of an organization as the recurring villain. Every setting has something you can use, from the Red Wizards to the Emerald Claw. I'm sure a few Eberron games have even used the Church of the Silver Flame for this role. So, what do you guys think of this idea? Have you done anything like it? Or played against something similar? Are there any setups in particular you'd like to discuss, or ideas you'd like to share?
howlingwolf 09-17-05, 05:16 AM	Vengeful families are a very good source of surprise BBEG's. Especially further down the line in PC's careers. That guy that was stealing wagons of gold at first level, who you turned into a sword-kebab, just happens to be the son of a bigshot warlord who has a legion of angry people with big swords to come and claim revenge on you at the lofty heights of level ten.
Hedstrong 09-17-05, 11:16 AM	In one of my earlier campaigns i used a group of twelve cleric\sorcerers, known as "The Council". Tehy did send out mercenaries and various followers of their actuall rligion (not a cult per se), but eventually the party did faace them as BBEG.
dok 09-17-05, 02:56 PM	I've created rival groups (not opponents, but rivals) more than once in the past. Usually, they come together slowly, as various famous NPCs run into each other over time, though in one case, I simply introduced the group ("The Lords of Iron") as a whole. The Lords of Iron were built around a vague concept of all being evil, and all having some "iron" theme: the wizard was an artificer who built constructs, the rogue was a half-Iron Golem (MMII), and the fighter was just a Warrior of Darkness who led a mercenary army. Another group I've been toying with (but never statted) is "Them". "They" would operate in a fairly open, relatively uncontrolled area, as a group of bounty hunters, lawful individuals who brought in wanted criminals for rewards, or rescued kidnapped victims. Again, its a three 'person' group: A Doppleganger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm) Mindspy, a Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) Warshaper, and an Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) Telepath. Their fame is derived from the fact that even though someone comes in during broad daylight to collect the bounties, no one really remembers who it was, or what they looked like. They would work equally well as allies, rivals, or enemies to a PCs group.
VampiricBloodlustNemesis 09-18-05, 05:23 AM	Please Post The Stats For The "lords Of Iron" They Sound Sweet!
Mithral Icesilver 09-18-05, 01:51 PM	I did toy with the idea once of an advancing group as an opponent - lead by an albino arcanoloth with an affinity for displacer beasts. He was known as Conjunctix. I thought of him at three levels - one as a normal arcanoloth Hexblade 3, with a hyperintelligent (for a displacer beast) Wiz 5 displacer beast companion known as Gehennix. At the second level, he became half-Pyroclastic Dragon (via a backfired Disciple of Ashardalon ritual), had gained seven levels, Gehennix had gained three more wizard levels and four levels of Acolyte of the Skin, and a sorcerous displacer beast had joined the party, one known as Carcerix at level 5. At the third level of difficulty, he had had a displacer beast's hide grafted to him, granting him a permanent displacement effect (and incidentally removing all trace of his albinism except for the red eyes), was now a level 15 Hexblade/Geometer 5, Gehennix was now Wiz 12/Acolyte of the Skin 10, and Carcerix was Sor 6/Acolyte of the Skin 5. They would've been pretty challenging, but I never did implement him.
cerberuspuppy 09-18-05, 04:20 PM	I might do some write ups for the ideas I presented above. I have been thinking of writing some modules anyway.
VampiricBloodlustNemesis 09-18-05, 04:26 PM	Write Those Up!
General_Ridley 09-18-05, 04:38 PM	I've toyed with the idea. I had one idea where the characters are sapped of nearly all their memories with Programmed Amnesia scrolls by 4 BBEGs. To regain their basest of memories, they must kill the weakest BBEG. Continue on until killing the final one gives you your full memories. The BBEGs were: Wild Elf Sorceror 5 Changeling Wizard/Mindbender/Wild Mage (level 10) A Human True Necromance (Uncertain on what the levels were, but it was Wiz/Cleric with some TN levels) and a NE Gray Elf Wiz/Druid/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge. (Level 20, the order and amounts giving the ability to cast 9th level spells in both classes) my favorite BBEGG ever.
Arae'Kol Da'Ato 09-18-05, 04:58 PM	Hmmm.....I wonder if anyone has ever statted the Linear Guild from OOTS. :confused:
Dragonklaw82 09-18-05, 05:00 PM	I think of all BBEG encounters as group encounters, because any self respecting villain would surround himself with a retinue of bodyguards or minions, or as I like to call them, "extra hit points".
VampiricBloodlustNemesis 09-18-05, 05:03 PM	hmmmmmm........
VampiricBloodlustNemesis 09-18-05, 09:05 PM	they would definately own hardcore.
cerberuspuppy 09-18-05, 10:10 PM	I think of all BBEG encounters as group encounters, because any self respecting villain would surround himself with a retinue of bodyguards or minions, or as I like to call them, "extra hit points". This is true. Hmm... Maybe another thread...
VampiricBloodlustNemesis 09-18-05, 10:32 PM	yes i agree
digoraccoon 09-19-05, 09:41 AM	There was a short lived BBEG group that I had called "Death Corps". It was a band of villians with a common goal to find these ancient stones that combined to form an artifact capable of granting "wishes". The group was on equal terms, though they elected one as their leader just for organizational purposes. Short lived group because they backstabbed each other halfway through the campaign and the PCs severely shortened the lives of the surviving group. ;)
VampiricBloodlustNemesis 09-19-05, 03:17 PM	shall i make an unofficial competition for merc/BBEG groups? these all sound too good to pass up......
shadevarr 10-07-05, 03:49 PM	Heh, I am currently working on a group of corrupted aracanaloths whose goal is to call forth the far realms into the lower planes. each of the 6 is twisted in their own way. Like an arcanaloth illithid in Carceri, an arcanaloth with levels in alienist in pandemonium, one with the psudonatural template probably in the grey waste and I am still working on the rest of them. The scary thing is if their plan succeeds then the outer planes as a whole become an outpost of the far realms as it continues expanding until the whole multiverse is incorporated within it. I get somewhat scared when I think "what if the PCs fail?"
woozygremlin 10-07-05, 09:54 PM	I've also used rival or enemy groups on occasion, and in fact prefer them to single villains if for no other reason than the fact that they can institute more complex tactics. The backstabbing and stealing typical of evil characters can be curbed to a remarkable degree by having well-defined goals, a strong leader and solid infrastructure. I often pattern such groups on the adventurers themselves, not designing the villains to KILL the characters necessarily (I find metagaming as detestible in DMs as I do in players), but to create unique and interesting situations for them to face.