Becomming a vampire [Archive] - Wizards Community

Becomming a vampire [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ronsard101
07-04-06, 02:41 PM If a lawful good character is bitten by a vampire and becomes a vampire himself, does his aligment change? (since Vampires are always Evil)
Khael
07-04-06, 02:44 PM By RAW yes, given the above point.
However if you want a RP thing out of it, consider the standard angst-filled part where they choose between keeping their alignment and starving, or feeding and going evil.
Watchdog_of_Hades
07-04-06, 03:05 PM I'd say that vampires don't have to be always evil, unless the transformation itself changes their mindset (not out of the question). I mean, sure, you have to drink blood, but you don't have to kill anyone. You can just take a bite here, a bite there. You're not permanently damaging anyone. Take Strahd von Zarovich, for example. It's clear that he, at least, has enough control to not kill someone every time he feeds. And vampires don't have to keep farms of people.
CryoSilver
07-04-06, 04:10 PM It does in fact say in the vampire entry that the transformation DOES change your alignment, and that you may therefore lose class features.

However, after transforming, you can either put on a Helm of Opposite ALignment, or get an atonement to change back, then another to regain your powers.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-04-06, 04:38 PM By the rules as written yes.

A bit monolithic and dumb. Change it to whatever sort of vampire you want to portray, alter it to fit the character, alter it to fit circumstance, world or campaign tone, etc.
Watchdog_of_Hades
07-04-06, 05:08 PM Well, with Atonement, you need to want to change your alignment, and there's no guarantee that you'll want to after the transformation.
dok
07-05-06, 02:37 AM If a lawful good character is bitten by a vampire and becomes a vampire himself, does his aligment change? (since Vampires are always Evil)

A character's alignment doesn't change when he's bitten by a Vampire.

It changes when he dies, lies in the cold grave with his soul trapped in his mortal shell instead of ascending to the Heavens, and becomes aware that it is eternally trapped in a decaying body with no hope of eternal rest or paradise.

In order to become a Vampire, you must die. Then, after you die, your consciousness remains, trapped inside a dead body, instead of going out to the Outer Planes where you are met by your Gods and rewarded for your life's service. Then, you awaken to discover an endless hunger that can only be satisfied by preying on living creatures, draining them of their vitality and life, but not necessarily killing them.

Once more, in order to become a vampire you must die. Death is a pretty profound change, and coming back from the dead as an undying corpse that exists as a mockery of true life, damned for all eternety to wander the earth and never know the pleasures of Heaven or even the suffering and atonement of Hell, that's the sort of thing that can really alter a person's moral compass...
Callahan
07-05-06, 09:58 AM People always forget that vampirism is not an STD.
Watchdog_of_Hades
07-05-06, 11:25 AM People always forget that vampirism is not an STD.I don't get it.
mvincent
07-05-06, 03:07 PM It changes when he dies, lies in the cold grave with his soul trapped in his mortal shell instead of ascending to the HeavensI was under the impression that many undead simply didn't have souls.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-05-06, 04:12 PM I was under the impression that many undead simply didn't have souls.

Only non-intelligent undead don't have souls as a rule.

Intelligent undead have souls, corporeal ones like vampires or liches still having a body, while incorporeal undead like ghosts tend to be nothing but the soul of a dead mortal empowered by negative energy. That negative energy allows them to remain extant without their soul being funneled away to the Outer Planes after the death of their mortal body. Sometimes this is by willing choice, conscious or not, and other times it's a side effect of the manner of their death.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-05-06, 04:19 PM It changes when he dies, lies in the cold grave with his soul trapped in his mortal shell instead of ascending to the Heavens, and becomes aware that it is eternally trapped in a decaying body with no hope of eternal rest or paradise.

What about those who embrace vampirism by choice? Who says that their vampiric form of undeath is a curse at all?

coming back from the dead as an undying corpse that exists as a mockery of true life, damned for all eternety to wander the earth and never know the pleasures of Heaven or even the suffering and atonement of Hell, that's the sort of thing that can really alter a person's moral compass...

Who says that the upper planes are about pleasure, or that the lower planes are about suffering, or about atonement? Nothing of the sort. The Outer Planes are simply about growing closer to the alignment you possessed in life, there's no good/bad duality involved at all, in any way. To the petitioner of an evil person, the lower planes might be a paradise, a place of utter and ultimate freedom, removed in every way from the moral shackles of the upper planes. What constitutes a 'paradise' or a 'hell' is purely in the eye of the beholder.

A mortal might view things differently, but they've got a very different perspective than a soul, a petitioner, who has been stripped of their mortal memories, reduced to nothing but their core personality and sense of 'self' and redefined around their moral and ethical axis.
Lafarallin
07-05-06, 04:26 PM On a related note....I often wondered what happened when you were turned into a vampire or werewolf (etc..etc..) unwillingly. Do you then get the level ECL modifiers? If you do do you basically get negative levels you have to make up before you can advance in your class again?
Dracomortis
07-05-06, 06:00 PM RAW, you would just gain the LA. Meaning you would now gain XP as a character of a higher level, and the rest of the party is going to catch up with you (thanks to the "self-fixing" system). So, it's actually benefitial for everyone in the party when one person gets bitten. Thus why I never liked LA - I just go by CR.
dok
07-05-06, 09:43 PM What about those who embrace vampirism by choice? Who says that their vampiric form of undeath is a curse at all?

Since the subject at hand is why Vampires all have evil alignments, I'm going to say that folks who embrace vampirism by choice are probably already evil...

Who says that the upper planes are about pleasure, or that the lower planes are about suffering, or about atonement? Nothing of the sort.

Actually, the MotP makes it pretty clear that petitioners (the souls of the living) spend most of their time in misery in the lower planes:
Gray Waste of Hades: It is a place of endless apathy and despair.
Bleak Eternity of Gehenna: It is a place without charity, mercy or pity.
Nine Hells of Baator: It is the epitome of preditated, crafted cruelty.
The Abyss: It is an infinity of Cluching Horror

Those are just a few quick sentances; the flavor text leaves no ambiguity about the suffering of the lower planes. True, nothing is said about atonement, but the suffering part is both explicit and repeated often.

Seaven Mounting Heavens of Celstia: Here, all things are beautiful.
Blessed Fields of Elysium: It is a land so pleasant you may never want to leave.
Olympian Glades of Arborea: Arboria is a place with flowers in bloom and trees bearing fruit simultaneously... the land embodies both wilderness and loveliness in one package.

Again, it's hard to argue that "no one says the upper planes are about pleasure", when they're all described as idyllic paradises, rich gardens of the earth filled with wonders.

To the petitioner of an evil person, the lower planes might be a paradise, a place of utter and ultimate freedom, removed in every way from the moral shackles of the upper planes. What constitutes a 'paradise' or a 'hell' is purely in the eye of the beholder.

Somehow, I think the Lemures and Dretches see it differently as they're whipped into battle by more powerful fiends.
Somehow, I think the Larva that must be tortured and mutated into Lemures and Dretches probably don't see that as "paradise".
Sure, after a few centuries of being a fiend, you might well view things differently, but again, this discussion isn't about the perspective of a fiend or an angel, it's about the mortal perspective, as it relates to dying and undeath.

Does a devil think Hell is a wonderful place? Sure, but that doesn't mean it is a wonderful place. And it certainly doesn't mean that anyone other than a devil would see it as a wonderful place.

A mortal might view things differently, but they've got a very different perspective than a soul, a petitioner, who has been stripped of their mortal memories, reduced to nothing but their core personality and sense of 'self' and redefined around their moral and ethical axis.

First, who says that Petitioners have no mortal memories?
I just read the Petitioner template, and it doesn't say anything about losing memories, either in the flavor text or the template.

Second, we're discussing the dilemma of the mortal-turned-undead: he never gets to be a petitioner, never gets to be stripped of mortal memories, and by the process of dying and being transformed into undeath, actually has their "core presonality" either subverted or distorted completely. So to a mortal (Mortal view: Hell bad, Heaven good) dying and being denied the afterlife (mortal view: chance to atone, rewarded for goodness) is a "bad thing". Sure, an Angel or a Devil might see things differently, but the undead never gets to have that perspective!
KhalaKyRelai
07-05-06, 09:59 PM Where does it say the lower planes are about atonement?
Shemeska the Marauder
07-05-06, 11:05 PM Since the subject at hand is why Vampires all have evil alignments, I'm going to say that folks who embrace vampirism by choice are probably already evil...

I'm rather certain that with a bit of reading I can find examples of non-evil vampires in DnD lore. The 3.x template just doesn't give any wiggle room, which is shortsighted and unfortunate.

Actually, the MotP makes it pretty clear that petitioners (the souls of the living) spend most of their time in misery in the lower planes:

You can do better than the abbreviated flavor text of the MotP. It's a good book, but it's not a deep book.

Those are just a few quick sentances; the flavor text leaves no ambiguity about the suffering of the lower planes. True, nothing is said about atonement, but the suffering part is both explicit and repeated often.

Look at it on a deeper level, taking keen notice of the metaphysical purpose and role of those planes. The lower planes of DnD are not some pit of fire that the souls of sinners are cast into by a vengeful god, they're layers of reality that exemplify an abstract concept of alignment. Those souls who migrate there do so because the essence of their being most closely matches that place and in time they'll either feed the plane directly, becoming part of it, or they'll rise in power as essentially living extensions of that plane and that alignment.

It's not about atonement in the least. And any suffering is largely, if not purely on a subjective level. It's suffering for a mortal, but it's what existance is about for a petitioner or fiend native to those planes, though some of them grasp this faster than others, and those are the ones who rise to the top.

Again, it's hard to argue that "no one says the upper planes are about pleasure", when they're all described as idyllic paradises, rich gardens of the earth filled with wonders.

Take a highly chaotic person, or even an Eladrin, and then make them live in Mount Celestia. It'll be hell for them. Similarly an Archon stuck in Arborea is going to be horrified by the utter absence of and open disdain for Law. For someone opposed to one of the upper planes by a shade of alignment, it's not necessarily a pleasant place.

Somehow, I think the Lemures and Dretches see it differently as they're whipped into battle by more powerful fiends.
Somehow, I think the Larva that must be tortured and mutated into Lemures and Dretches probably don't see that as "paradise".

Ask them once they've managed to ascend to Balor or Pit Fiend status and see if they have a different view of the process that led to their empowerment. Torture? A Tanar'ri might see it as pain that sparked their inner fury, their desire, their brutal wellspring of anger, and they will be thankful for it. A Baatezu might view it as the hammering of a piece of iron in the forge, it starts out rough and raw, but discipline forges it into something greater. Pain? That's just weakness leaving the soul.

Sure, after a few centuries of being a fiend, you might well view things differently, but again, this discussion isn't about the perspective of a fiend or an angel, it's about the mortal perspective, as it relates to dying and undeath.

Invalid, because at that point they're no longer a mortal, they're just on the lowest rung of the fiend ladder, soulstuff in the line for promotion into least fiend status.

Does a devil think Hell is a wonderful place? Sure, but that doesn't mean it is a wonderful place. And it certainly doesn't mean that anyone other than a devil would see it as a wonderful place.

There isn't an objective standard here. It's -entirely- subjective.

A Slaadi, a wild mage, a Xaositect... they'll see Limbo as perfection. A Paladin or an Archon will see Mount Celestia as perfection. A Yugoloth will see the Gray Waste as perfection. An Eladrin or Holy Liberator will see Arborea as perfection. Anything else is going to be either flawed or a hell to them.

First, who says that Petitioners have no mortal memories?
I just read the Petitioner template, and it doesn't say anything about losing memories, either in the flavor text or the template.

Petitioners are stripped of their memories during their transition through the Astral plane. Those petitioners of specific deities may, at their deity's whimsy, be granted them back, but that's a large exception to the standard case.

The MotP is vague on the topic, but it's stated half-heartedly in the opening portion of the section on the Outer Planes. For a better, more detailed, look at the subject, I'll suggest that you look over some of the 2e Planescape books that address the topic ('A Guide to the Astral Plane', 'The Planewalker's Handbook', etc).

Second, we're discussing the dilemma of the mortal-turned-undead[/i]

I wasn't talking about the vampire, I was making a comment on your notion that the upper planes were paradise and pleasure and the lower planes about suffering and atonement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ronsard101 07-04-06, 02:41 PM	If a lawful good character is bitten by a vampire and becomes a vampire himself, does his aligment change? (since Vampires are always Evil)
Khael 07-04-06, 02:44 PM	By RAW yes, given the above point. However if you want a RP thing out of it, consider the standard angst-filled part where they choose between keeping their alignment and starving, or feeding and going evil.
Watchdog_of_Hades 07-04-06, 03:05 PM	I'd say that vampires don't have to be always evil, unless the transformation itself changes their mindset (not out of the question). I mean, sure, you have to drink blood, but you don't have to kill anyone. You can just take a bite here, a bite there. You're not permanently damaging anyone. Take Strahd von Zarovich, for example. It's clear that he, at least, has enough control to not kill someone every time he feeds. And vampires don't have to keep farms of people.
CryoSilver 07-04-06, 04:10 PM	It does in fact say in the vampire entry that the transformation DOES change your alignment, and that you may therefore lose class features. However, after transforming, you can either put on a Helm of Opposite ALignment, or get an atonement to change back, then another to regain your powers.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-04-06, 04:38 PM	By the rules as written yes. A bit monolithic and dumb. Change it to whatever sort of vampire you want to portray, alter it to fit the character, alter it to fit circumstance, world or campaign tone, etc.
Watchdog_of_Hades 07-04-06, 05:08 PM	Well, with Atonement, you need to want to change your alignment, and there's no guarantee that you'll want to after the transformation.
dok 07-05-06, 02:37 AM	If a lawful good character is bitten by a vampire and becomes a vampire himself, does his aligment change? (since Vampires are always Evil) A character's alignment doesn't change when he's bitten by a Vampire. It changes when he dies, lies in the cold grave with his soul trapped in his mortal shell instead of ascending to the Heavens, and becomes aware that it is eternally trapped in a decaying body with no hope of eternal rest or paradise. In order to become a Vampire, you must die. Then, after you die, your consciousness remains, trapped inside a dead body, instead of going out to the Outer Planes where you are met by your Gods and rewarded for your life's service. Then, you awaken to discover an endless hunger that can only be satisfied by preying on living creatures, draining them of their vitality and life, but not necessarily killing them. Once more, in order to become a vampire you must die. Death is a pretty profound change, and coming back from the dead as an undying corpse that exists as a mockery of true life, damned for all eternety to wander the earth and never know the pleasures of Heaven or even the suffering and atonement of Hell, that's the sort of thing that can really alter a person's moral compass...
Callahan 07-05-06, 09:58 AM	People always forget that vampirism is not an STD.
Watchdog_of_Hades 07-05-06, 11:25 AM	People always forget that vampirism is not an STD.I don't get it.
mvincent 07-05-06, 03:07 PM	It changes when he dies, lies in the cold grave with his soul trapped in his mortal shell instead of ascending to the HeavensI was under the impression that many undead simply didn't have souls.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-05-06, 04:12 PM	I was under the impression that many undead simply didn't have souls. Only non-intelligent undead don't have souls as a rule. Intelligent undead have souls, corporeal ones like vampires or liches still having a body, while incorporeal undead like ghosts tend to be nothing but the soul of a dead mortal empowered by negative energy. That negative energy allows them to remain extant without their soul being funneled away to the Outer Planes after the death of their mortal body. Sometimes this is by willing choice, conscious or not, and other times it's a side effect of the manner of their death.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-05-06, 04:19 PM	It changes when he dies, lies in the cold grave with his soul trapped in his mortal shell instead of ascending to the Heavens, and becomes aware that it is eternally trapped in a decaying body with no hope of eternal rest or paradise. What about those who embrace vampirism by choice? Who says that their vampiric form of undeath is a curse at all? coming back from the dead as an undying corpse that exists as a mockery of true life, damned for all eternety to wander the earth and never know the pleasures of Heaven or even the suffering and atonement of Hell, that's the sort of thing that can really alter a person's moral compass... Who says that the upper planes are about pleasure, or that the lower planes are about suffering, or about atonement? Nothing of the sort. The Outer Planes are simply about growing closer to the alignment you possessed in life, there's no good/bad duality involved at all, in any way. To the petitioner of an evil person, the lower planes might be a paradise, a place of utter and ultimate freedom, removed in every way from the moral shackles of the upper planes. What constitutes a 'paradise' or a 'hell' is purely in the eye of the beholder. A mortal might view things differently, but they've got a very different perspective than a soul, a petitioner, who has been stripped of their mortal memories, reduced to nothing but their core personality and sense of 'self' and redefined around their moral and ethical axis.
Lafarallin 07-05-06, 04:26 PM	On a related note....I often wondered what happened when you were turned into a vampire or werewolf (etc..etc..) unwillingly. Do you then get the level ECL modifiers? If you do do you basically get negative levels you have to make up before you can advance in your class again?
Dracomortis 07-05-06, 06:00 PM	RAW, you would just gain the LA. Meaning you would now gain XP as a character of a higher level, and the rest of the party is going to catch up with you (thanks to the "self-fixing" system). So, it's actually benefitial for everyone in the party when one person gets bitten. Thus why I never liked LA - I just go by CR.
dok 07-05-06, 09:43 PM	What about those who embrace vampirism by choice? Who says that their vampiric form of undeath is a curse at all? Since the subject at hand is why Vampires all have evil alignments, I'm going to say that folks who embrace vampirism by choice are probably already evil... Who says that the upper planes are about pleasure, or that the lower planes are about suffering, or about atonement? Nothing of the sort. Actually, the MotP makes it pretty clear that petitioners (the souls of the living) spend most of their time in misery in the lower planes: Gray Waste of Hades: It is a place of endless apathy and despair. Bleak Eternity of Gehenna: It is a place without charity, mercy or pity. Nine Hells of Baator: It is the epitome of preditated, crafted cruelty. The Abyss: It is an infinity of Cluching Horror Those are just a few quick sentances; the flavor text leaves no ambiguity about the suffering of the lower planes. True, nothing is said about atonement, but the suffering part is both explicit and repeated often. Seaven Mounting Heavens of Celstia: Here, all things are beautiful. Blessed Fields of Elysium: It is a land so pleasant you may never want to leave. Olympian Glades of Arborea: Arboria is a place with flowers in bloom and trees bearing fruit simultaneously... the land embodies both wilderness and loveliness in one package. Again, it's hard to argue that "no one says the upper planes are about pleasure", when they're all described as idyllic paradises, rich gardens of the earth filled with wonders. To the petitioner of an evil person, the lower planes might be a paradise, a place of utter and ultimate freedom, removed in every way from the moral shackles of the upper planes. What constitutes a 'paradise' or a 'hell' is purely in the eye of the beholder. Somehow, I think the Lemures and Dretches see it differently as they're whipped into battle by more powerful fiends. Somehow, I think the Larva that must be tortured and mutated into Lemures and Dretches probably don't see that as "paradise". Sure, after a few centuries of being a fiend, you might well view things differently, but again, this discussion isn't about the perspective of a fiend or an angel, it's about the mortal perspective, as it relates to dying and undeath. Does a devil think Hell is a wonderful place? Sure, but that doesn't mean it is a wonderful place. And it certainly doesn't mean that anyone other than a devil would see it as a wonderful place. A mortal might view things differently, but they've got a very different perspective than a soul, a petitioner, who has been stripped of their mortal memories, reduced to nothing but their core personality and sense of 'self' and redefined around their moral and ethical axis. First, who says that Petitioners have no mortal memories? I just read the Petitioner template, and it doesn't say anything about losing memories, either in the flavor text or the template. Second, we're discussing the dilemma of the mortal-turned-undead: he never gets to be a petitioner, never gets to be stripped of mortal memories, and by the process of dying and being transformed into undeath, actually has their "core presonality" either subverted or distorted completely. So to a mortal (Mortal view: Hell bad, Heaven good) dying and being denied the afterlife (mortal view: chance to atone, rewarded for goodness) is a "bad thing". Sure, an Angel or a Devil might see things differently, but the undead never gets to have that perspective!
KhalaKyRelai 07-05-06, 09:59 PM	Where does it say the lower planes are about atonement?
Shemeska the Marauder 07-05-06, 11:05 PM	Since the subject at hand is why Vampires all have evil alignments, I'm going to say that folks who embrace vampirism by choice are probably already evil... I'm rather certain that with a bit of reading I can find examples of non-evil vampires in DnD lore. The 3.x template just doesn't give any wiggle room, which is shortsighted and unfortunate. Actually, the MotP makes it pretty clear that petitioners (the souls of the living) spend most of their time in misery in the lower planes: You can do better than the abbreviated flavor text of the MotP. It's a good book, but it's not a deep book. Those are just a few quick sentances; the flavor text leaves no ambiguity about the suffering of the lower planes. True, nothing is said about atonement, but the suffering part is both explicit and repeated often. Look at it on a deeper level, taking keen notice of the metaphysical purpose and role of those planes. The lower planes of DnD are not some pit of fire that the souls of sinners are cast into by a vengeful god, they're layers of reality that exemplify an abstract concept of alignment. Those souls who migrate there do so because the essence of their being most closely matches that place and in time they'll either feed the plane directly, becoming part of it, or they'll rise in power as essentially living extensions of that plane and that alignment. It's not about atonement in the least. And any suffering is largely, if not purely on a subjective level. It's suffering for a mortal, but it's what existance is about for a petitioner or fiend native to those planes, though some of them grasp this faster than others, and those are the ones who rise to the top. Again, it's hard to argue that "no one says the upper planes are about pleasure", when they're all described as idyllic paradises, rich gardens of the earth filled with wonders. Take a highly chaotic person, or even an Eladrin, and then make them live in Mount Celestia. It'll be hell for them. Similarly an Archon stuck in Arborea is going to be horrified by the utter absence of and open disdain for Law. For someone opposed to one of the upper planes by a shade of alignment, it's not necessarily a pleasant place. Somehow, I think the Lemures and Dretches see it differently as they're whipped into battle by more powerful fiends. Somehow, I think the Larva that must be tortured and mutated into Lemures and Dretches probably don't see that as "paradise". Ask them once they've managed to ascend to Balor or Pit Fiend status and see if they have a different view of the process that led to their empowerment. Torture? A Tanar'ri might see it as pain that sparked their inner fury, their desire, their brutal wellspring of anger, and they will be thankful for it. A Baatezu might view it as the hammering of a piece of iron in the forge, it starts out rough and raw, but discipline forges it into something greater. Pain? That's just weakness leaving the soul. Sure, after a few centuries of being a fiend, you might well view things differently, but again, this discussion isn't about the perspective of a fiend or an angel, it's about the mortal perspective, as it relates to dying and undeath. Invalid, because at that point they're no longer a mortal, they're just on the lowest rung of the fiend ladder, soulstuff in the line for promotion into least fiend status. Does a devil think Hell is a wonderful place? Sure, but that doesn't mean it is a wonderful place. And it certainly doesn't mean that anyone other than a devil would see it as a wonderful place. There isn't an objective standard here. It's -entirely- subjective. A Slaadi, a wild mage, a Xaositect... they'll see Limbo as perfection. A Paladin or an Archon will see Mount Celestia as perfection. A Yugoloth will see the Gray Waste as perfection. An Eladrin or Holy Liberator will see Arborea as perfection. Anything else is going to be either flawed or a hell to them. First, who says that Petitioners have no mortal memories? I just read the Petitioner template, and it doesn't say anything about losing memories, either in the flavor text or the template. Petitioners are stripped of their memories during their transition through the Astral plane. Those petitioners of specific deities may, at their deity's whimsy, be granted them back, but that's a large exception to the standard case. The MotP is vague on the topic, but it's stated half-heartedly in the opening portion of the section on the Outer Planes. For a better, more detailed, look at the subject, I'll suggest that you look over some of the 2e Planescape books that address the topic ('A Guide to the Astral Plane', 'The Planewalker's Handbook', etc). Second, we're discussing the dilemma of the mortal-turned-undead[/i] I wasn't talking about the vampire, I was making a comment on your notion that the upper planes were paradise and pleasure and the lower planes about suffering and atonement.