Beholder Level Adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beholder Level Adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jhelton
06-29-07, 11:28 AM I was attempting to break down a beholder for aq PC. I originally came up with a +8 LA. I thought this was a little high. I figured I could get it as low as +5 LA. This might be too low. Mabey 6 or 7? Below is how I came to this numbers:

Fly +1 LA (since his manuverabilty is good could be +2)
Natural Armor +3 LA (at this high a level the +15 bonus doesn't mean as much so this could be a +1)
Abilities +1 LA
Rays +1 LA
Antimagic cone +1

Any input would be appreciated.
Sarlax
06-29-07, 01:14 PM Fly +1 LA (since his manuverabilty is good could be +2)
Natural Armor +3 LA (at this high a level the +15 bonus doesn't mean as much so this could be a +1)
Abilities +1 LA
Rays +1 LA
Antimagic cone +1
The idea that the natural armor is somehow superior or equivalent to the eye rays is pretty ridiculous. Scrap the whole Savage Species idea of breaking a monster into its constituent "powers" and instead compare the beholder to the closest substitute from core rules class options.

It really has three abilities to consider: flight, antimagic, and the rays. The rays themselves break down to offensive (charm, disintegrate, fear, finger of death, flesh to stone, inflict moderate wounds, sleep, slow, telekinesis), control (charm), and utility (disintegrate, telekinesis).

Antimagic is huge. With it's great range, the beholder can deprive many creatures of much of their potency (such as outsiders) or even all of their actions (like casters). It can also negate all magical hazards, wipe away summoned creatures, etc. At what point can a core race/class combo do something like that?

The rays are nasty. The offensive rays include both Fortitude and Will save or die effects, so most enemies will be easy pickings. There's also telekinesis which opens a whole slew of combat options (bull rush, disarm, grapple, trip). The beholder can use the maneuvers as well a warrior, but the save or die effects are like that of a high-level caster.

The charm rays allow the beholder to acquire innumberable minions. Few classes can do that, but telepaths and thrallherds are contenders.

The utility rays have varying effects. With disintegration a beholder can escape almost any effect. With telekinesis, any object can be safely moved or otherwise manipulated.

None of this takes into account Lords of Madness beholder feats.

Anything else? Ah yes. They have 10 actions per round: 8 rays, directing the antimagic cone, and then its standard action.

There's really no way to derive a valid ECL for the beholder. It can outclass core classes even up to 20th level. All it will miss are HP, but there are many ways to remedy that.

The utility rays are very strong as well.
Salla
06-29-07, 01:18 PM Last thing I recall reading made the Beholder an ECL 24 or 25, and it isn't appropriate for PCs anyway because it lacks arms and can't make use of most equipment.
jhelton
06-29-07, 01:20 PM Where did U read that?
jhelton
06-29-07, 01:38 PM I can see giving a beholder a +10 LA, but not +14 LA. That is putting it up there with a Solar. An epic 25th level character would be way more powerful than a beholder PC. The point of level adjustment is to find a level where it is just as powerful as a regular character. Though they might have totally different attacks and abilities there effectiveness can be compared.
El_Machinae
06-29-07, 01:39 PM I think +5 LA is pretty good. A Beholder will need to rely rather heavily on minions. The DCs of the eye rays will have trouble later on, and thus will be less and less useful.
bobothechimp
06-29-07, 01:53 PM Access to the Beholder Mage prestige class should also be taken into account. That thing is insane.
jhelton
06-29-07, 02:05 PM The beholder Mage prestige class was the reason 4 wanting to play a beholder. It is powerful, but U get the same number of attacks beacuse U have to eliminate an eyestalk. Some of the beholders eyestaclks are 5th and 6th level spells. By the time U where able to cast 9th level it U would be in the high 20's depending on the LA.
El_Machinae
06-29-07, 03:06 PM If you're incorporating Beholder Mage, then all bets are off. That PrC doesn't work so well in the regular system. No matter what LA the Beholder has, it will eventually outpower any other character class. The ability to add as many 'spells known' is one thing, but the doubling of caster level is another.

Maybe impose an additional +4 LA if the character takes a level of Beholder Mage?
jhelton
06-29-07, 03:24 PM He is still getting the same number of attacks ant roughly the same spell levels. For every new spell level he gets he loses a stalk and the ability to use that eye ray + he can't use his antimagic cone. The prestige class shouldn't have any level adjustment!!! It should be the same for the beholder weither or not he takes the presitge class. The problem is to determine the appropiate LA for the beholder
bobothechimp
06-29-07, 05:11 PM Yeah, the class isn't that great. I mean, losing those amazing eye rays and an antimagic cone for a measly 10 spells per round, all as free actions is a horrible trade-off. Why would anyone do that? I mean, it's not like you can cast all the spells you could with your eye rays as normal arcane spells, along with spontaneous spellcasting as a sorcerer and limitless spells known as a wizard. Oh wait, that's exactly you can do.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
06-29-07, 05:22 PM Please stop using "U" as a substitute for you.

P.S Beholder Mage is not suitable for PC's. Don't even try it.
jhelton
06-29-07, 05:28 PM I didn't realize they could learn spells as a wizard. I was orignally thinking they only new 2 spells per level. I don't like unplayable classes or races. Everyhting should be playable with the right level adjustment! But we got off topic. I was wanting LA for the beholder.
PS I won't stop using U, so get over it.
El_Machinae
06-29-07, 09:38 PM He is still getting the same number of attacks ant roughly the same spell levels. For every new spell level he gets he loses a stalk and the ability to use that eye ray + he can't use his antimagic cone. The prestige class shouldn't have any level adjustment!!! It should be the same for the beholder weither or not he takes the presitge class. The problem is to determine the appropiate LA for the beholder

The Eye Ray DCs will be nearly useless at that level anyway, though.
sensestaker
06-29-07, 11:34 PM Beholder LA

Fly +1
Nat. Armor +2
Unbalanced Ability Scores +3
Supernatural Abilities +3

Total LA +9

If I were to play a beholder, I'd take the Master of the Unseen Hand PrC from CW. POW!
Slagger the Chuul
06-30-07, 01:21 AM It's certainly a tough one. The ray DCs aren't much in combat, but disintegrate and antimagic at will are of amazing utility to a party (and I mean outside of combat).

The disintegrate by itself is so amazingly useful it's hard to believe; no more of this walls and doors business; if you need a door, you make a door. Can't lockpick a chest? Disintegrate it (which may need Disintegration Finesse, depending on your DM). Then again, the warlock principle says that it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
runestar
06-30-07, 08:38 AM The beholder was given an ECL of 24 in an old issue of dragon, IIRC.

True, the DCs don't look all that hard to make, but remember that a PC beholder gets to make use of point buy and has access to gear according to his ECL. Put enough points to start off with a base 15 or 16 in cha, add that +4 racial bonus, +6 enhancement from cloak of charisma and maybe a +5 tome. You have a cha of 30, enough to give your eye rays an average dc of 25. Still not that stellar, but so long as you bear in mind the respective weak saves each foe has and use the appropriate ray against them, it should still have a fair chance of affecting them.

Another problem is its ability to use all its eye rays simultaneously at will. No sort of LA can properly calculate the immense utility this provides. To put things into perspective, the ghaele is ECL20 (10 outsider HD, LA+10), and I personally still find it a tad under LA'ed, partly due to its glut of special abilities and other SLAs usable at will.

Nor do I buy the argument that a beholder shouldn't have that high a LA since a wizard can just shapechange into 1 (admit it - some of you were entertaining such a notion...;) )

Its abilities look like they possess the potential to upset the balance of any game except in epic (where balance generally gets thrown out of the window anyways). I would personally enforce its LA of "-". It really is not ideal as a PC choice. Much as I find its LA of +13 a bitter pill to swallow, I find myself agreeing with it, if only out of sanity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jhelton 06-29-07, 11:28 AM	I was attempting to break down a beholder for aq PC. I originally came up with a +8 LA. I thought this was a little high. I figured I could get it as low as +5 LA. This might be too low. Mabey 6 or 7? Below is how I came to this numbers: Fly +1 LA (since his manuverabilty is good could be +2) Natural Armor +3 LA (at this high a level the +15 bonus doesn't mean as much so this could be a +1) Abilities +1 LA Rays +1 LA Antimagic cone +1 Any input would be appreciated.
Sarlax 06-29-07, 01:14 PM	Fly +1 LA (since his manuverabilty is good could be +2) Natural Armor +3 LA (at this high a level the +15 bonus doesn't mean as much so this could be a +1) Abilities +1 LA Rays +1 LA Antimagic cone +1 The idea that the natural armor is somehow superior or equivalent to the eye rays is pretty ridiculous. Scrap the whole Savage Species idea of breaking a monster into its constituent "powers" and instead compare the beholder to the closest substitute from core rules class options. It really has three abilities to consider: flight, antimagic, and the rays. The rays themselves break down to offensive (charm, disintegrate, fear, finger of death, flesh to stone, inflict moderate wounds, sleep, slow, telekinesis), control (charm), and utility (disintegrate, telekinesis). Antimagic is huge. With it's great range, the beholder can deprive many creatures of much of their potency (such as outsiders) or even all of their actions (like casters). It can also negate all magical hazards, wipe away summoned creatures, etc. At what point can a core race/class combo do something like that? The rays are nasty. The offensive rays include both Fortitude and Will save or die effects, so most enemies will be easy pickings. There's also telekinesis which opens a whole slew of combat options (bull rush, disarm, grapple, trip). The beholder can use the maneuvers as well a warrior, but the save or die effects are like that of a high-level caster. The charm rays allow the beholder to acquire innumberable minions. Few classes can do that, but telepaths and thrallherds are contenders. The utility rays have varying effects. With disintegration a beholder can escape almost any effect. With telekinesis, any object can be safely moved or otherwise manipulated. None of this takes into account Lords of Madness beholder feats. Anything else? Ah yes. They have 10 actions per round: 8 rays, directing the antimagic cone, and then its standard action. There's really no way to derive a valid ECL for the beholder. It can outclass core classes even up to 20th level. All it will miss are HP, but there are many ways to remedy that. The utility rays are very strong as well.
Salla 06-29-07, 01:18 PM	Last thing I recall reading made the Beholder an ECL 24 or 25, and it isn't appropriate for PCs anyway because it lacks arms and can't make use of most equipment.
jhelton 06-29-07, 01:20 PM	Where did U read that?
jhelton 06-29-07, 01:38 PM	I can see giving a beholder a +10 LA, but not +14 LA. That is putting it up there with a Solar. An epic 25th level character would be way more powerful than a beholder PC. The point of level adjustment is to find a level where it is just as powerful as a regular character. Though they might have totally different attacks and abilities there effectiveness can be compared.
El_Machinae 06-29-07, 01:39 PM	I think +5 LA is pretty good. A Beholder will need to rely rather heavily on minions. The DCs of the eye rays will have trouble later on, and thus will be less and less useful.
bobothechimp 06-29-07, 01:53 PM	Access to the Beholder Mage prestige class should also be taken into account. That thing is insane.
jhelton 06-29-07, 02:05 PM	The beholder Mage prestige class was the reason 4 wanting to play a beholder. It is powerful, but U get the same number of attacks beacuse U have to eliminate an eyestalk. Some of the beholders eyestaclks are 5th and 6th level spells. By the time U where able to cast 9th level it U would be in the high 20's depending on the LA.
El_Machinae 06-29-07, 03:06 PM	If you're incorporating Beholder Mage, then all bets are off. That PrC doesn't work so well in the regular system. No matter what LA the Beholder has, it will eventually outpower any other character class. The ability to add as many 'spells known' is one thing, but the doubling of caster level is another. Maybe impose an additional +4 LA if the character takes a level of Beholder Mage?
jhelton 06-29-07, 03:24 PM	He is still getting the same number of attacks ant roughly the same spell levels. For every new spell level he gets he loses a stalk and the ability to use that eye ray + he can't use his antimagic cone. The prestige class shouldn't have any level adjustment!!! It should be the same for the beholder weither or not he takes the presitge class. The problem is to determine the appropiate LA for the beholder
bobothechimp 06-29-07, 05:11 PM	Yeah, the class isn't that great. I mean, losing those amazing eye rays and an antimagic cone for a measly 10 spells per round, all as free actions is a horrible trade-off. Why would anyone do that? I mean, it's not like you can cast all the spells you could with your eye rays as normal arcane spells, along with spontaneous spellcasting as a sorcerer and limitless spells known as a wizard. Oh wait, that's exactly you can do.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-29-07, 05:22 PM	Please stop using "U" as a substitute for you. P.S Beholder Mage is not suitable for PC's. Don't even try it.
jhelton 06-29-07, 05:28 PM	I didn't realize they could learn spells as a wizard. I was orignally thinking they only new 2 spells per level. I don't like unplayable classes or races. Everyhting should be playable with the right level adjustment! But we got off topic. I was wanting LA for the beholder. PS I won't stop using U, so get over it.
El_Machinae 06-29-07, 09:38 PM	He is still getting the same number of attacks ant roughly the same spell levels. For every new spell level he gets he loses a stalk and the ability to use that eye ray + he can't use his antimagic cone. The prestige class shouldn't have any level adjustment!!! It should be the same for the beholder weither or not he takes the presitge class. The problem is to determine the appropiate LA for the beholder The Eye Ray DCs will be nearly useless at that level anyway, though.
sensestaker 06-29-07, 11:34 PM	Beholder LA Fly +1 Nat. Armor +2 Unbalanced Ability Scores +3 Supernatural Abilities +3 Total LA +9 If I were to play a beholder, I'd take the Master of the Unseen Hand PrC from CW. POW!
Slagger the Chuul 06-30-07, 01:21 AM	It's certainly a tough one. The ray DCs aren't much in combat, but disintegrate and antimagic at will are of amazing utility to a party (and I mean outside of combat). The disintegrate by itself is so amazingly useful it's hard to believe; no more of this walls and doors business; if you need a door, you make a door. Can't lockpick a chest? Disintegrate it (which may need Disintegration Finesse, depending on your DM). Then again, the warlock principle says that it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
runestar 06-30-07, 08:38 AM	The beholder was given an ECL of 24 in an old issue of dragon, IIRC. True, the DCs don't look all that hard to make, but remember that a PC beholder gets to make use of point buy and has access to gear according to his ECL. Put enough points to start off with a base 15 or 16 in cha, add that +4 racial bonus, +6 enhancement from cloak of charisma and maybe a +5 tome. You have a cha of 30, enough to give your eye rays an average dc of 25. Still not that stellar, but so long as you bear in mind the respective weak saves each foe has and use the appropriate ray against them, it should still have a fair chance of affecting them. Another problem is its ability to use all its eye rays simultaneously at will. No sort of LA can properly calculate the immense utility this provides. To put things into perspective, the ghaele is ECL20 (10 outsider HD, LA+10), and I personally still find it a tad under LA'ed, partly due to its glut of special abilities and other SLAs usable at will. Nor do I buy the argument that a beholder shouldn't have that high a LA since a wizard can just shapechange into 1 (admit it - some of you were entertaining such a notion...;) ) Its abilities look like they possess the potential to upset the balance of any game except in epic (where balance generally gets thrown out of the window anyways). I would personally enforce its LA of "-". It really is not ideal as a PC choice. Much as I find its LA of +13 a bitter pill to swallow, I find myself agreeing with it, if only out of sanity.