Beholder's Telekinesis - full spell or not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beholder's Telekinesis - full spell or not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
malignor
03-26-07, 05:06 PM We had quite the battle last night.

And I'm not talking about fighters and wizards and dragons (oh my!), I'm talking about a 30 minute argument that reached the 50 decibel mark and led to some folks getting out of their chairs. Personally, I thought it was kinda funny, but the problem was genuine.

A beholder's eyestalks, as you know, include a swanky array of supernatural abilities. One of those is our good buddy, Telekinesis. However, the wording is where the "fit hit the shan". Under the monster stat block, the telekinesis does not explicitly mention the grappling or combat maneuvers feature, but says "can move objects and creatures as though with the telekinesis spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm)". This brings into the question When a Beholder uses his TK-eyestalk, can or can he not use the combat maneuvers listed under Telekinesis? This is "nasty debate question 1".

Well I was grappled for 4 rounds by the beholder's TK while other eyestalks were still employed. However, Using TK for anything other than a violent thrust requires concentration, and concentrating on a spell or spell-like effect uses a standard action. But the beholder can, as a single attack, use multiple eyestalks. So again we have a conflict between 10 attacks in 1 attack action (which is a subset of a standard action), versus the standard action to concentrate on TK-grappling. Can a beholder use the TK-eyestalk to maintain a grapple, an act which requires a standard action to concentrate, and does this impair his use of other eyestalks? This is "nasty debate question 2."

Color me confuzzled.
Shadowmind64
03-26-07, 05:13 PM Good question, but i would rule it as the telekinesis can only be used as the "violent thrust" manuever, that way you dont get bogged down concentrating and all that other messy stuff.
primemover003
03-26-07, 09:56 PM Very good question! I think I'd not allow the Beholder to utilize a continuous effect from TK if it's using all it's eyerays each round. Once it's dealt with all your buddies however you're it's plaything!
Part-Human2
03-26-07, 10:41 PM The MM says it can "move objects or creatures that weight up to 325 lbs, as though with a telekinesis spell" as a ray (resembles the spell, but uses the rules for rays) as a free action each round.

I'm sure that "move objects or creatures" doesn't mean grappling, tripping, disarming or bull rushing. A liberal DM might though because such action do entail moving objects or creatures.

Online WotC Monster Makeover: The Beholder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a)
Telekinesis: Another utility eye ray, telekinesis helps explain how beholders manipulate tools. Unfortunately, this spell is really, really annoying in play. It has three different versions, each with radically different mechanics. Let's keep this eye ray in place, but add a modification to make the DM's life simple. Now, a beholder can use this ray to move a creature up to 20 feet; a Reflex save negates this movement. This ray is useful in moving fighters and other melee guys away, and is a cruel combo with slow.

They seem to think it has access to all three versions.
malignor
03-29-07, 12:04 PM So the general consensus is no constant combat maneuvers?
OamuTheMonk
03-29-07, 03:25 PM ...Using TK for anything other than a violent thrust requires concentration, and concentrating on a spell or spell-like effect uses a standard action. But the beholder can, as a single attack, use multiple eyestalks. So again we have a conflict between 10 attacks in 1 attack action (which is a subset of a standard action), versus the standard action to concentrate on TK-grappling. Can a beholder use the TK-eyestalk to maintain a grapple, an act which requires a standard action to concentrate, and does this impair his use of other eyestalks?...

Color me confuzzled.

So are the other respondents.

The Red area is where you have a problem. A Beholders Eye Rays can be used "once per round as a free action (MM pg.25)." They do not require an attack action of any kind. So a Beholder can move (move action), fire all its rays (free action), and make a grapple check (assuming the TK ray hit it's target) as it's standard action.

The Beholders Eye Rays "resemble a spell" with the sole exception that they "follow the rules for rays (MM pg.25)," so all combat maneuvers are available from the TK list, although the Beholder still has to use Concentration to use them from round to round, just like concentrating on a spell. He's also limted to maintaining Concentration for 14 rounds (his caster level) before he has to hit with his ray again.

Supernatural abilities (like the Beholder's Eye Rays) are "not subject to...disruption. (PH pg.314)," so Concentration checks are not needed to use them, while being distracted.

So, Grappling Beholder is totally kosher, by the RAW.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malignor 03-26-07, 05:06 PM	We had quite the battle last night. And I'm not talking about fighters and wizards and dragons (oh my!), I'm talking about a 30 minute argument that reached the 50 decibel mark and led to some folks getting out of their chairs. Personally, I thought it was kinda funny, but the problem was genuine. A beholder's eyestalks, as you know, include a swanky array of supernatural abilities. One of those is our good buddy, Telekinesis. However, the wording is where the "fit hit the shan". Under the monster stat block, the telekinesis does not explicitly mention the grappling or combat maneuvers feature, but says "can move objects and creatures as though with the telekinesis spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm)". This brings into the question When a Beholder uses his TK-eyestalk, can or can he not use the combat maneuvers listed under Telekinesis? This is "nasty debate question 1". Well I was grappled for 4 rounds by the beholder's TK while other eyestalks were still employed. However, Using TK for anything other than a violent thrust requires concentration, and concentrating on a spell or spell-like effect uses a standard action. But the beholder can, as a single attack, use multiple eyestalks. So again we have a conflict between 10 attacks in 1 attack action (which is a subset of a standard action), versus the standard action to concentrate on TK-grappling. Can a beholder use the TK-eyestalk to maintain a grapple, an act which requires a standard action to concentrate, and does this impair his use of other eyestalks? This is "nasty debate question 2." Color me confuzzled.
Shadowmind64 03-26-07, 05:13 PM	Good question, but i would rule it as the telekinesis can only be used as the "violent thrust" manuever, that way you dont get bogged down concentrating and all that other messy stuff.
primemover003 03-26-07, 09:56 PM	Very good question! I think I'd not allow the Beholder to utilize a continuous effect from TK if it's using all it's eyerays each round. Once it's dealt with all your buddies however you're it's plaything!
Part-Human2 03-26-07, 10:41 PM	The MM says it can "move objects or creatures that weight up to 325 lbs, as though with a telekinesis spell" as a ray (resembles the spell, but uses the rules for rays) as a free action each round. I'm sure that "move objects or creatures" doesn't mean grappling, tripping, disarming or bull rushing. A liberal DM might though because such action do entail moving objects or creatures. Online WotC Monster Makeover: The Beholder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a) Telekinesis: Another utility eye ray, telekinesis helps explain how beholders manipulate tools. Unfortunately, this spell is really, really annoying in play. It has three different versions, each with radically different mechanics. Let's keep this eye ray in place, but add a modification to make the DM's life simple. Now, a beholder can use this ray to move a creature up to 20 feet; a Reflex save negates this movement. This ray is useful in moving fighters and other melee guys away, and is a cruel combo with slow. They seem to think it has access to all three versions.
malignor 03-29-07, 12:04 PM	So the general consensus is no constant combat maneuvers?
OamuTheMonk 03-29-07, 03:25 PM	...Using TK for anything other than a violent thrust requires concentration, and concentrating on a spell or spell-like effect uses a standard action. But the beholder can, as a single attack, use multiple eyestalks. So again we have a conflict between 10 attacks in 1 attack action (which is a subset of a standard action), versus the standard action to concentrate on TK-grappling. Can a beholder use the TK-eyestalk to maintain a grapple, an act which requires a standard action to concentrate, and does this impair his use of other eyestalks?... Color me confuzzled. So are the other respondents. The Red area is where you have a problem. A Beholders Eye Rays can be used "once per round as a free action (MM pg.25)." They do not require an attack action of any kind. So a Beholder can move (move action), fire all its rays (free action), and make a grapple check (assuming the TK ray hit it's target) as it's standard action. The Beholders Eye Rays "resemble a spell" with the sole exception that they "follow the rules for rays (MM pg.25)," so all combat maneuvers are available from the TK list, although the Beholder still has to use Concentration to use them from round to round, just like concentrating on a spell. He's also limted to maintaining Concentration for 14 rounds (his caster level) before he has to hit with his ray again. Supernatural abilities (like the Beholder's Eye Rays) are "not subject to...disruption. (PH pg.314)," so Concentration checks are not needed to use them, while being distracted. So, Grappling Beholder is totally kosher, by the RAW.