beholder too weak??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

beholder too weak??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
griffir
03-22-05, 12:44 PM hello, i'm a newbie in the boards and my first question is about the beholder. I think that he is too weak for a challenge rating of 13... the dc's of his rays about 18 and his low saves (specially fort) makes the great beholder a enemy that every wizard with a spell that requires a fort save can kill easily, the same to AC and Hit Points... every archer ou fighter can break down this creature... waht do you think about him?

p.s. sorry about my terrible english but i'm form brazil and i dont enter a lot in english boards... this is the first time...
was_fired
03-22-05, 12:52 PM Flyby attack really helps the beholder if they are alone. It can stay out of melee range because it can fly so that isn't a problem. In a group with brawlers they are deadly since they just keep their centeral eye open and do nothing else (eye rays can't work in the cone). This tactic hurts more and more as you get higher level and more magic dependent.
Lord_Anthrax
03-22-05, 01:07 PM Using a Beholder well means making the most of their abilities. First and foremost is their Flight. No Beholder with half a brain will allow a melee fighter to get anywhere near it. Next are their Eye Rays. Beholders are intelligent monsters and can generally guess what type of attack to use against a given foe(i.e., someone with heavy armor and a big weapon is a Fighter-type), so they'll hit you where you're weak, such as targeting a Fighter with Fear, Sleep or Charm Person/Monster, hit a Wizard with Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death, etc.

Last is their Antimagic eye, which is useful for covering their retreat and more importantly for working with their minions. Beholders are good "boss" monsters and should have some handy cronies who won't be affected much by their Antimagic ability, which makes it a lot harder for the party to do much to them.
cwslyclgh
03-22-05, 01:18 PM plus a CR 13 means that a party of 4 13th level character should beable to beat a beholder using only 20-25% of thier available resources, very little chance of a party member actualy going down or anything of the sort.
d00m_b4b00n
03-22-05, 01:21 PM Put them in an area where there are heavy things to throw. The telekinisis eye beam can lob things at people within the cone using momentum, or drop things on them.

If you play them smart a beholder far exceeds its challenge rating.

Remember it's never JUST a dragon, never JUST an Illithid and never JUST a Beholder
HomebrewedMonster
03-22-05, 01:38 PM Click on the link in my thread.
angryman
03-22-05, 10:09 PM The DCs are low but the bloody things can hit you with 3-4 spells a round! And more than one save or die. They can kill a high level party if the party is unlucky! Although they're not very terrifying...just increase their HD and use the elite array to give them bags of HP and increase their DCs.
OverzealousMephit
03-22-05, 10:20 PM A beholder can absolutely ravage a poorly positioned group of adventurers. Seeing 3 will save related rays go after the Fighter and 3 fortitude related rays go after the wizard can cause BIG problems to the +4/+5 weak saves of the average character. And the Beholder with his 17 intelligence knows this.

However, the Beholder without a doubt functions much better with some support to deal with pesky Clerics, Monks etc.
griffir
03-22-05, 10:41 PM i did everything you said here and i agree that the beholder is a monster that if you use well (specially with 3 war trolls hehehe) he is terrible... but i think that fault something... example: the demons in 3.0 version... specially the balor... very weak... little hd's... i think the same think to beholder.

I give to them 15 HD to make then more dificult to beat and i create a new type with elite arrays, and RM 26... what do you think?
WarRabbit
03-22-05, 11:39 PM I leave beholders as they are, but allow them to close the main eye as a free action (and thus turn off the anti-magic field), fire off the smaller eye stalk rays, and then open the eye again as a free action at the end of it's turn. Nasty stuff, especially when the beholder has some grunt minions which don't rely on magic stuff.
Riznar
03-23-05, 12:08 AM Beholders are casters basically, they need meatshields.

Also, the MM talks about how they favor vertical lairs. However a beholder should never let an enemy get above it. I had a paladin take a flying leap off of a higher ledge, his intent was to land on the beholder and attack it while grappling. However, the beholder has a light load of 66 lbs, and the pally with gear weighed 260. The pally could soak the falling damage, the beholder couldn't.

It was really cool but I had intended that fight to go a little longer. :eek:
Lord_Anthrax
03-23-05, 05:10 AM As a sidenote, I hope they update the Beholder Mage PrC in Lords of Madness, since that really makes Beholders nasty. Instead of eye rays, cast 3 spells a round, each of a different spell level. For those interested in the old version, it's in Monsters of Faerun.
Aricandor
03-23-05, 05:31 AM Put them in an area where there are heavy things to throw. The telekinisis eye beam can lob things at people within the cone using momentum, or drop things on them.

If you play them smart a beholder far exceeds its challenge rating.

Remember it's never JUST a dragon, never JUST an Illithid and never JUST a Beholder

I think you just won the award for best name ever... Doom Baboon... That rocks. :D
TheBard
03-23-05, 06:34 AM Having Disintegrate as a ray? Nasty. This beast nearly wrecked some of my (seemingly indestructiable) adamantium gear. Too bad that disintegrate ignores hardness and magical bonus.
d00m_b4b00n
03-23-05, 11:36 AM Cheers mate!

But yeah, beholders are damn lethal if played properly.

They can quite comfortably blast anyone out of their socks when it comes to Fortitude and Will saves. Clerics do well against these 2 but it's a reflex save to avoid ginormous boulders or spiked iron balls or glass globes full of acid or anything else you want to throw at them. :devil:

If you want be really nasty then have the beholder bring some swarms of hellwasps and keep their antimagic eye on the swarm. By 13th level who carries around non-fire, non-magical splash weapons when fireballs are so easily dispensed? In fact the swarm cannot be hurt while it is in the cone (DR10/magic, Immunity to weapon damage as a swarm of diminutive creatures, fire resistance 10). A couple of these will totally murder a party... :evillaugh
eggplantm
03-23-05, 12:09 PM I leave beholders as they are, but allow them to close the main eye as a free action (and thus turn off the anti-magic field), fire off the smaller eye stalk rays, and then open the eye again as a free action at the end of it's turn. Nasty stuff, especially when the beholder has some grunt minions which don't rely on magic stuff.

It was my understanding that this was how beholders were always meant to be played. 1. the beholder can obviously close and open its primary eye as a free action. 2. the beholder can use all of its eye rays each round as a free action.

So, unless you hold your action for the beholder to close his eye, magic is not working. A very crafty spellcaster could use this tactic. All spells and eye rays basically happenning simultaneously.
Count Arioch the 28th
03-23-05, 12:22 PM I think you just won the award for best name ever... Doom Baboon... That rocks. :D

<Sings> Doom baboon, the dunce cockney, Mars viking railcar! </sings>
d00m_b4b00n
03-23-05, 06:28 PM A :cookie: for you for getting the reference
Solarious
03-23-05, 09:53 PM Even worse is when a Beholder manages to get the drop on you... literally. Basicly it hovers upside-down above you, and when the entire party is in its firing arc, it can unleash 10 eye rays a round as a free action. Never forget that a Beholder can aim all 10 of its rays up with ease, and when flight is involved, up is a relative term.
griffir
03-23-05, 11:06 PM I made a beholder mage... with elite arrays scores... resulting in a mortal combat with the group... he killed 3 member os the group (the group has 5) and knock down another... in the end a beholder like i think...
Rulebook
03-24-05, 01:34 PM reminds me of the time we broke into this temple in the underdark, and there were all these trolls and bugbears and such working as slaves to excavate -something- we couldnt fathom. Then this beholder comes down, and asks us what we're doing... all of us, floundering for a reason, so our Monk friend walks up and says "Were here to free the slaves!" right around the time he got to here, we all turned invisible except for him, becuase the fool was gonna get us killed.

The dang beholder laughed at us, and turned the slaves against us. Mind you we were a group of like 5 10th level characters, so this was a NASTY fight. all the big strong things out there, and the beholder swooping his antimagic eye over the troublemakers from way up high, zapping with eyebeams. My little rogue almost dying... *sniff sniff*

yeah, its never JUST a beholder you're fighting unless you're lucky or your DM has no imagination. there will ALWAYS be secondaries (or other beholders.)
HomebrewedMonster
03-24-05, 03:00 PM What is really scary is running into a court of beholders (beholder mage's with circle magic :devil).
Silimaure
03-24-05, 03:50 PM Put a beholder in front of a party of level 1s, and they won't think it's underpowered ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
griffir 03-22-05, 12:44 PM	hello, i'm a newbie in the boards and my first question is about the beholder. I think that he is too weak for a challenge rating of 13... the dc's of his rays about 18 and his low saves (specially fort) makes the great beholder a enemy that every wizard with a spell that requires a fort save can kill easily, the same to AC and Hit Points... every archer ou fighter can break down this creature... waht do you think about him? p.s. sorry about my terrible english but i'm form brazil and i dont enter a lot in english boards... this is the first time...
was_fired 03-22-05, 12:52 PM	Flyby attack really helps the beholder if they are alone. It can stay out of melee range because it can fly so that isn't a problem. In a group with brawlers they are deadly since they just keep their centeral eye open and do nothing else (eye rays can't work in the cone). This tactic hurts more and more as you get higher level and more magic dependent.
Lord_Anthrax 03-22-05, 01:07 PM	Using a Beholder well means making the most of their abilities. First and foremost is their Flight. No Beholder with half a brain will allow a melee fighter to get anywhere near it. Next are their Eye Rays. Beholders are intelligent monsters and can generally guess what type of attack to use against a given foe(i.e., someone with heavy armor and a big weapon is a Fighter-type), so they'll hit you where you're weak, such as targeting a Fighter with Fear, Sleep or Charm Person/Monster, hit a Wizard with Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death, etc. Last is their Antimagic eye, which is useful for covering their retreat and more importantly for working with their minions. Beholders are good "boss" monsters and should have some handy cronies who won't be affected much by their Antimagic ability, which makes it a lot harder for the party to do much to them.
cwslyclgh 03-22-05, 01:18 PM	plus a CR 13 means that a party of 4 13th level character should beable to beat a beholder using only 20-25% of thier available resources, very little chance of a party member actualy going down or anything of the sort.
d00m_b4b00n 03-22-05, 01:21 PM	Put them in an area where there are heavy things to throw. The telekinisis eye beam can lob things at people within the cone using momentum, or drop things on them. If you play them smart a beholder far exceeds its challenge rating. Remember it's never JUST a dragon, never JUST an Illithid and never JUST a Beholder
HomebrewedMonster 03-22-05, 01:38 PM	Click on the link in my thread.
angryman 03-22-05, 10:09 PM	The DCs are low but the bloody things can hit you with 3-4 spells a round! And more than one save or die. They can kill a high level party if the party is unlucky! Although they're not very terrifying...just increase their HD and use the elite array to give them bags of HP and increase their DCs.
OverzealousMephit 03-22-05, 10:20 PM	A beholder can absolutely ravage a poorly positioned group of adventurers. Seeing 3 will save related rays go after the Fighter and 3 fortitude related rays go after the wizard can cause BIG problems to the +4/+5 weak saves of the average character. And the Beholder with his 17 intelligence knows this. However, the Beholder without a doubt functions much better with some support to deal with pesky Clerics, Monks etc.
griffir 03-22-05, 10:41 PM	i did everything you said here and i agree that the beholder is a monster that if you use well (specially with 3 war trolls hehehe) he is terrible... but i think that fault something... example: the demons in 3.0 version... specially the balor... very weak... little hd's... i think the same think to beholder. I give to them 15 HD to make then more dificult to beat and i create a new type with elite arrays, and RM 26... what do you think?
WarRabbit 03-22-05, 11:39 PM	I leave beholders as they are, but allow them to close the main eye as a free action (and thus turn off the anti-magic field), fire off the smaller eye stalk rays, and then open the eye again as a free action at the end of it's turn. Nasty stuff, especially when the beholder has some grunt minions which don't rely on magic stuff.
Riznar 03-23-05, 12:08 AM	Beholders are casters basically, they need meatshields. Also, the MM talks about how they favor vertical lairs. However a beholder should never let an enemy get above it. I had a paladin take a flying leap off of a higher ledge, his intent was to land on the beholder and attack it while grappling. However, the beholder has a light load of 66 lbs, and the pally with gear weighed 260. The pally could soak the falling damage, the beholder couldn't. It was really cool but I had intended that fight to go a little longer. :eek:
Lord_Anthrax 03-23-05, 05:10 AM	As a sidenote, I hope they update the Beholder Mage PrC in Lords of Madness, since that really makes Beholders nasty. Instead of eye rays, cast 3 spells a round, each of a different spell level. For those interested in the old version, it's in Monsters of Faerun.
Aricandor 03-23-05, 05:31 AM	Put them in an area where there are heavy things to throw. The telekinisis eye beam can lob things at people within the cone using momentum, or drop things on them. If you play them smart a beholder far exceeds its challenge rating. Remember it's never JUST a dragon, never JUST an Illithid and never JUST a Beholder I think you just won the award for best name ever... Doom Baboon... That rocks. :D
TheBard 03-23-05, 06:34 AM	Having Disintegrate as a ray? Nasty. This beast nearly wrecked some of my (seemingly indestructiable) adamantium gear. Too bad that disintegrate ignores hardness and magical bonus.
d00m_b4b00n 03-23-05, 11:36 AM	Cheers mate! But yeah, beholders are damn lethal if played properly. They can quite comfortably blast anyone out of their socks when it comes to Fortitude and Will saves. Clerics do well against these 2 but it's a reflex save to avoid ginormous boulders or spiked iron balls or glass globes full of acid or anything else you want to throw at them. :devil: If you want be really nasty then have the beholder bring some swarms of hellwasps and keep their antimagic eye on the swarm. By 13th level who carries around non-fire, non-magical splash weapons when fireballs are so easily dispensed? In fact the swarm cannot be hurt while it is in the cone (DR10/magic, Immunity to weapon damage as a swarm of diminutive creatures, fire resistance 10). A couple of these will totally murder a party... :evillaugh
eggplantm 03-23-05, 12:09 PM	I leave beholders as they are, but allow them to close the main eye as a free action (and thus turn off the anti-magic field), fire off the smaller eye stalk rays, and then open the eye again as a free action at the end of it's turn. Nasty stuff, especially when the beholder has some grunt minions which don't rely on magic stuff. It was my understanding that this was how beholders were always meant to be played. 1. the beholder can obviously close and open its primary eye as a free action. 2. the beholder can use all of its eye rays each round as a free action. So, unless you hold your action for the beholder to close his eye, magic is not working. A very crafty spellcaster could use this tactic. All spells and eye rays basically happenning simultaneously.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-23-05, 12:22 PM	I think you just won the award for best name ever... Doom Baboon... That rocks. :D <Sings> Doom baboon, the dunce cockney, Mars viking railcar! </sings>
d00m_b4b00n 03-23-05, 06:28 PM	A :cookie: for you for getting the reference
Solarious 03-23-05, 09:53 PM	Even worse is when a Beholder manages to get the drop on you... literally. Basicly it hovers upside-down above you, and when the entire party is in its firing arc, it can unleash 10 eye rays a round as a free action. Never forget that a Beholder can aim all 10 of its rays up with ease, and when flight is involved, up is a relative term.
griffir 03-23-05, 11:06 PM	I made a beholder mage... with elite arrays scores... resulting in a mortal combat with the group... he killed 3 member os the group (the group has 5) and knock down another... in the end a beholder like i think...
Rulebook 03-24-05, 01:34 PM	reminds me of the time we broke into this temple in the underdark, and there were all these trolls and bugbears and such working as slaves to excavate -something- we couldnt fathom. Then this beholder comes down, and asks us what we're doing... all of us, floundering for a reason, so our Monk friend walks up and says "Were here to free the slaves!" right around the time he got to here, we all turned invisible except for him, becuase the fool was gonna get us killed. The dang beholder laughed at us, and turned the slaves against us. Mind you we were a group of like 5 10th level characters, so this was a NASTY fight. all the big strong things out there, and the beholder swooping his antimagic eye over the troublemakers from way up high, zapping with eyebeams. My little rogue almost dying... sniff sniff yeah, its never JUST a beholder you're fighting unless you're lucky or your DM has no imagination. there will ALWAYS be secondaries (or other beholders.)
HomebrewedMonster 03-24-05, 03:00 PM	What is really scary is running into a court of beholders (beholder mage's with circle magic :devil).
Silimaure 03-24-05, 03:50 PM	Put a beholder in front of a party of level 1s, and they won't think it's underpowered ;)