Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grayson 10-23-04, 03:25 AM	I know, I know, it's insane. But, it might be entertaining in a very high-powered game. Has an official ECL ever been published for the beholder? Or even it's little cousins like the Gauth?
ieattrollsforbreakfast 10-23-04, 09:32 AM	Nope, never. The reason being that beholders are extremely limited as player characters, since they have difficulty using items and manipulating things physically. I remeber someone making a monster class for the beholder a while back on the Savage Species boards, trying searching for it. IIRC, it had an ECL of about 22.
Purkake 10-23-04, 11:39 AM	If you want more info on beholders tha look in Dragon mag 313 it has a nice article on them with items and feats and classes. I also remember that there was a book(unoffical) about them Complete Guide to Beholders i think. Maybe they go a good ECL for them. Also there is a beholder mage class in Monsters of Faerun
Grayson 10-23-04, 11:58 AM	..since they have difficulty using items and manipulating things physically. They have the telekinesis ray. Difficulty manipulating items is definately not the limitation that prevents a monster from being a PC - there's plenty of creatures in SS that can't manipulate objects :)
Starmage21 10-23-04, 12:00 PM	Demiliches :D actually, that problem is solved by using your hand as your final form, instead of your skull.
Purkake 10-23-04, 12:50 PM	It's funny that even when they become hands they get automatic still spell, but no silent spell :D I just can imagine a skeletal hand(or worse a spine) speaking. :eek:
Judicator Shekar 10-23-04, 01:33 PM	Hopefully, we will get a glimpse at a Beholder Progression in April's Codex Anathema. Regardless, it seems like a rather difficult proposition, as the level adjustment for all those ray attacks would be astronomical. This, combined with the HD, should create a character with its ECL way into the 20s (perhaps 30s). Such a character would be effectively useless, as the DC for all the ray attacks would be easy to make at that level.
Grayson 10-23-04, 01:44 PM	Yeah, I can see the progression being fairly high - heavily backloaded most likely. I find it hard to imagine it being higher than a 20 level progression though - the eye rays are powerful, but the character would be extremely limited in it's versatility when compared to a high-level spellcaster. Of all it's powers, only the Disintegrate, Telekinesis, and anti-magic cone have non-offensive uses. And defensively, you'd be nearly helpless without party members buffing the heck outta you.
Judicator Shekar 10-23-04, 03:51 PM	I kinda think you're missing the point of the ECL system. You see, it is not the system presented in DMG 3.0, the system of, "lets make the monster class balanced with regard to a character of equivalent level". The new, Savage Species system generally flies in the face of fairness, saying that regardless of how limited something may be, if it deserves an extra point of level adjustment, it will recieve one. As a result, the ECL of a beholder would be insanely high with regard to its actually usefullness, but there's little that can be done about this.
Grayson 10-23-04, 04:11 PM	The entire point of SS is to allow players to play monsters with high ECL's right from level 1 - and for them to be balanced against other party members. That's the entire point of the ECL system, lol. Power-wise, compare it to the Efreet - 3 wishes per day, with no xp cost. Or some of the 20-class monsters such as the Astral Deva and Ghaele - they get very, very nice powers that are usable at will, at the higher levels. I'd expect a Beholder SS progression to start with stuff like Charm Person / Sleep usable a few times a day, and then progressing into allowing the more powerful eye rays at 1/day, 3/day, and then at will.. etc. Much like the Mind Flayer gains it's Mind Blast ability in stages, or the Medusa gains it's gaze attack.
Judicator Shekar 10-30-04, 03:45 PM	I don't really care what the entire point is. Sure, the system was created to attempt to balance the playable monsters concept, but all it did was convolute it and create a situation in which only some creatures are playable, and others are not.
Grayson 10-30-04, 10:04 PM	If you don't care, then save everyone some time and effort, and don't reply ;) Other than whining, I'm not sure what the point of your last post was.
Judicator Shekar 10-31-04, 09:48 AM	You asked a question, I answered it. That was the reason for my first post. You made an incorrect statement, I identified it as such. That was the reason for my second post.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 10-31-04, 10:32 AM	Judicator is write. The designers even said they deliberately made the ECLs higher than is fair to discourage people from playing non-core races so that they would match the novels. Of course, if you've already gone through the trouble to spend $30 of hard-earned money on a book devoted to the soul purpose of playing non-core races, you intend to do so, therefor making the extra penalty a pointless and needlessly painful way for WotC to finger their customers.