Best spellstitching choices? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best spellstitching choices? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
krichaiushii
08-12-04, 07:57 PM MMII has the Spellstitched template, allowing for corporeal undead to cast a very small number of Evocation, Conjuration, and/or Necromancy spells.

What are some of the better combinations of spell choices and undead you have found?

If your recommendations come from noncore books, please list your source(s).

Thank you.
cmrscorpio
08-12-04, 10:45 PM I'd say that a no-brainer spell for liches, and other high-wisdom undead to put on themselves are the mass inflict wounds spells. especially if they have a bunch of undead minions. heal your own and hurt them all in one fell swoop. Use a cleric's strength as one of your own.

another idea for a hord of undead guarding a fortress is to have a skeleton with Sanctuary. There is always one in each patrol. at the first sign of attack, it casts it on itself and runs back and alerts everything else in the base.

Cause fear is fun against a low-level party. just order them to cast it on anyone with a holy-symbol. Or hold person.

True strike, especially for some undead that drains stats or levels.

A bunch of spell-stitched undead with summon monster turn an easy fight against a few undead against a horde of mixed creatures
Talanall
08-12-04, 11:28 PM This is one of my favorite templates.

I'm particularly fond of the ghast as a recipient for this template. They're smart (Int 13), tougher than a ghoul or a ghast (higher AC and hit points), and agile. This makes them capable of following even complex orders. They can handle missions that require stealth, they can command lesser troops, and they can even give a good account of themselves in a straight battle. If the common skeleton or zombie is the footsoldier in your Undead Legion of Doom (tm), these fellows are prime candidates for the NCO spots.

They are especially suited to this role because, while they are tough enough to shred the average war 1 who makes up the bulk of most regular armies, they are not tough enough to stand up to the Evil Overlord in a fight. By comparison, a vampire or lich is smart and powerful enough to be a serious problem if it decides to cause you trouble.

So what I like to do is this: I use ghasts, and template them so that they get the following:

4/4/2; save DC 13+spell level; CL 4
1st: mage armor and obscuring mist
2nd: glitterdust and scare
3rd: fireball and stinking cloud

DR 5/+1 (5/magic in 3.5)
SR 18
+4 Turn Resistance

So for the expensive of 1000 gp and 6500 XP, you get a ghast which can decimate a large group of conventional soldiers all by itself. Add about 40 skeletons produced via animate dead, and you have the makings of a really serious army of your own.

If you're a lich with fairly decent Wis, the template is also a nice deal, because you can use it to set yourself up with those little things that no self-respecting Evil Overlord wants to be without. In 3.5, you can get teleport or dimension door as a spell-like ability, not to mention the assorted necromancy and evocation spells that are on the list. That gets really expensive, but if you're a lich you can afford to look at it as an investment. Being able to teleport 2/day, every day for the next 300+ years will pay for the initial expense of XP and gold many times over.
krichaiushii
08-13-04, 08:47 AM Its funny, I presumed only arcane spells could be used, but double checking the template, it is not specified, so this opens up all the divine spells... most excellent. It might be most balanced to pick either divine or arcane magic for each undead, as mixing and matching could get ugly.

Blindness/Deafness is level 3 for clerics, as is Bestow Curse and Animate Dead (could be lots of fun). Desecrate is an evocation, as are the aligment hitters (ex. Chaos Hammer and Blasphemy). Divine Power and Divine Might are both evocations, as well.

If the undead's Wisdom is high enough, do you think that the list of spell levels available would continue to scale? In the case of a vampire or lich with a 22+ Wisdom, for example. Would spellstitching even 1 spell of levels 7,8,9 be too powerful?

Can one spellstitch metamagicked spells? This could make things even more interesting.

Would an undead that normally has a touch attack be able to deliver said attack via the Spectral Hand spell? That could prove very amusing - a mummy delivering its diseased touch at a distance. Nevermind, the spell description says touch spells only. Might need a houseruling on that...

If I were to spellstitch a lich or higher, I am thinking his spell choices might be (especially if mixed and matched - perhaps he is a mystic theurge?)

1- Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement
2 - Desecrate, Darkness
3 - Animate Dead, Fireball
4 - Dimension Door, Fire Shield
5 - Cloudkill, Cone of Cold
6 - Antilife Shell
Mithral Icesilver
08-13-04, 04:44 PM Mystic Theurge spellstitched liches ... :eek: Scary.
Talanall
08-14-04, 02:42 AM I think the option of using divine spells is a little iffy for the template. The description of its conferred spell-like abilities indicates that they're cast as if by a sorcerer, with a caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice. That means that their save DC is derived using Charisma (another good reason to use the ghast -- they have Cha 16), and for balance reasons I would be inclined to limit them to arcane spells. All the examples in the template description are arcane, after all.

Aside from that, there's just no way that the CR increase to a spellstitched creature is accurate if it's using Divine Power. Theoretically, it could be used to give fighter BAB to a wizard, if applied to a lich.

My guess is that when the template was produced, the developer wasn't thinking about the possibility that someone might use it to churn out undead creatures that can duplicate a cleric's most devastating self-buffing spells.

In a larger sense, magic items that duplicate Divine Power are a trainwreck to price in the rules as written, and probably qualify as artifacts. I know that my DM doesn't allow characters to make them, and I don't allow it when I DM, either. I'm pretty sure that most DMs who have thought about it, have decided it's a bad idea. Especially given its call for expenses in both gold and XP, I'd say this template is basically a means by which a creature's body is rendered into a magic item, and so I'd exercise the same sort of intervention as a DM -- if I wouldn't let my players do it, I won't do it to them.
Incenjucar
08-14-04, 02:56 AM Might be wise to focus on area spells that undead are resistant to, if your spellstitched is part of a horde.

Just get the lesser undead to try and keep the opponents from utilizing their Ref save, and use a metamagicked Cone of Cold.
Sildatorak
08-15-04, 03:08 PM Animate dead and create undead are nice choices. Since they are spell-like abilities they don't take any material components, and it allows your undead officers to replace any losses their troops took from the corpses of the enemies they slew.
Firedrake
08-15-04, 05:01 PM My impression of the Spellstitched template was that it wouldn't allow Divine spells ( "enhanced and fortified by arcane means", "can be created only by a wizard or sorcerer of sufficient level to cst the spells", and "abilities are used as if the spells were cast by a sorcerer" are all potentially relevant quotes).

However... I have a question related to this template.

I was thinking of enhancing a couple of ghouls with it... and was wondering how touch spells interact with natural attacks and the ghoul's paralysis effect? Is it simply the touch of the ghoul which paralyzes, or is it somehow connected to the act of bite/claw? Can touch spells be discharged through the act of a claw attack, or does the somatic component/touch action preclude the act of clawing?

Any suggestions, explanations, reasons for explanations, and references to sections of the rules would be appreciated.

As for a favorite monster... ghouls/ghasts with touch spells could be a real pain depending on what the ruling to that question is. Fun spell choices are generally area effects that the undead are immune/resistant to, or a variety of impairment spells (web, obscuring mist, fog cloud, etc.). Not sure if there's a good reason to give an undead such spells as Halt Undead, Gentle Repose, and Undeath to Death, though.
Incenjucar
08-15-04, 05:16 PM One or the other. Just like you can't accidentally get energy-drained by a vampire.

However, you could always decide to be evil.
Count Arioch the 28th
08-15-04, 09:52 PM One time I designed a spellstitched monk death knight. I put some neat things like Mage Armor on him, and added a few touch spells. I use the Tome and Blood ruling that you can use a touch range spell in conjunction with an unarmed attack, but you forgoe the touch portion and instead resolve it as a normal attack.

Hmm . . . I'll have to see what school Spell flower from Savage Species is, that might be useful. If not, I can make a magic item that has it, or something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krichaiushii 08-12-04, 07:57 PM	MMII has the Spellstitched template, allowing for corporeal undead to cast a very small number of Evocation, Conjuration, and/or Necromancy spells. What are some of the better combinations of spell choices and undead you have found? If your recommendations come from noncore books, please list your source(s). Thank you.
cmrscorpio 08-12-04, 10:45 PM	I'd say that a no-brainer spell for liches, and other high-wisdom undead to put on themselves are the mass inflict wounds spells. especially if they have a bunch of undead minions. heal your own and hurt them all in one fell swoop. Use a cleric's strength as one of your own. another idea for a hord of undead guarding a fortress is to have a skeleton with Sanctuary. There is always one in each patrol. at the first sign of attack, it casts it on itself and runs back and alerts everything else in the base. Cause fear is fun against a low-level party. just order them to cast it on anyone with a holy-symbol. Or hold person. True strike, especially for some undead that drains stats or levels. A bunch of spell-stitched undead with summon monster turn an easy fight against a few undead against a horde of mixed creatures
Talanall 08-12-04, 11:28 PM	This is one of my favorite templates. I'm particularly fond of the ghast as a recipient for this template. They're smart (Int 13), tougher than a ghoul or a ghast (higher AC and hit points), and agile. This makes them capable of following even complex orders. They can handle missions that require stealth, they can command lesser troops, and they can even give a good account of themselves in a straight battle. If the common skeleton or zombie is the footsoldier in your Undead Legion of Doom (tm), these fellows are prime candidates for the NCO spots. They are especially suited to this role because, while they are tough enough to shred the average war 1 who makes up the bulk of most regular armies, they are not tough enough to stand up to the Evil Overlord in a fight. By comparison, a vampire or lich is smart and powerful enough to be a serious problem if it decides to cause you trouble. So what I like to do is this: I use ghasts, and template them so that they get the following: 4/4/2; save DC 13+spell level; CL 4 1st: mage armor and obscuring mist 2nd: glitterdust and scare 3rd: fireball and stinking cloud DR 5/+1 (5/magic in 3.5) SR 18 +4 Turn Resistance So for the expensive of 1000 gp and 6500 XP, you get a ghast which can decimate a large group of conventional soldiers all by itself. Add about 40 skeletons produced via animate dead, and you have the makings of a really serious army of your own. If you're a lich with fairly decent Wis, the template is also a nice deal, because you can use it to set yourself up with those little things that no self-respecting Evil Overlord wants to be without. In 3.5, you can get teleport or dimension door as a spell-like ability, not to mention the assorted necromancy and evocation spells that are on the list. That gets really expensive, but if you're a lich you can afford to look at it as an investment. Being able to teleport 2/day, every day for the next 300+ years will pay for the initial expense of XP and gold many times over.
krichaiushii 08-13-04, 08:47 AM	Its funny, I presumed only arcane spells could be used, but double checking the template, it is not specified, so this opens up all the divine spells... most excellent. It might be most balanced to pick either divine or arcane magic for each undead, as mixing and matching could get ugly. Blindness/Deafness is level 3 for clerics, as is Bestow Curse and Animate Dead (could be lots of fun). Desecrate is an evocation, as are the aligment hitters (ex. Chaos Hammer and Blasphemy). Divine Power and Divine Might are both evocations, as well. If the undead's Wisdom is high enough, do you think that the list of spell levels available would continue to scale? In the case of a vampire or lich with a 22+ Wisdom, for example. Would spellstitching even 1 spell of levels 7,8,9 be too powerful? Can one spellstitch metamagicked spells? This could make things even more interesting. Would an undead that normally has a touch attack be able to deliver said attack via the Spectral Hand spell? That could prove very amusing - a mummy delivering its diseased touch at a distance. Nevermind, the spell description says touch spells only. Might need a houseruling on that... If I were to spellstitch a lich or higher, I am thinking his spell choices might be (especially if mixed and matched - perhaps he is a mystic theurge?) 1- Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement 2 - Desecrate, Darkness 3 - Animate Dead, Fireball 4 - Dimension Door, Fire Shield 5 - Cloudkill, Cone of Cold 6 - Antilife Shell
Mithral Icesilver 08-13-04, 04:44 PM	Mystic Theurge spellstitched liches ... :eek: Scary.
Talanall 08-14-04, 02:42 AM	I think the option of using divine spells is a little iffy for the template. The description of its conferred spell-like abilities indicates that they're cast as if by a sorcerer, with a caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice. That means that their save DC is derived using Charisma (another good reason to use the ghast -- they have Cha 16), and for balance reasons I would be inclined to limit them to arcane spells. All the examples in the template description are arcane, after all. Aside from that, there's just no way that the CR increase to a spellstitched creature is accurate if it's using Divine Power. Theoretically, it could be used to give fighter BAB to a wizard, if applied to a lich. My guess is that when the template was produced, the developer wasn't thinking about the possibility that someone might use it to churn out undead creatures that can duplicate a cleric's most devastating self-buffing spells. In a larger sense, magic items that duplicate Divine Power are a trainwreck to price in the rules as written, and probably qualify as artifacts. I know that my DM doesn't allow characters to make them, and I don't allow it when I DM, either. I'm pretty sure that most DMs who have thought about it, have decided it's a bad idea. Especially given its call for expenses in both gold and XP, I'd say this template is basically a means by which a creature's body is rendered into a magic item, and so I'd exercise the same sort of intervention as a DM -- if I wouldn't let my players do it, I won't do it to them.
Incenjucar 08-14-04, 02:56 AM	Might be wise to focus on area spells that undead are resistant to, if your spellstitched is part of a horde. Just get the lesser undead to try and keep the opponents from utilizing their Ref save, and use a metamagicked Cone of Cold.
Sildatorak 08-15-04, 03:08 PM	Animate dead and create undead are nice choices. Since they are spell-like abilities they don't take any material components, and it allows your undead officers to replace any losses their troops took from the corpses of the enemies they slew.
Firedrake 08-15-04, 05:01 PM	My impression of the Spellstitched template was that it wouldn't allow Divine spells ( "enhanced and fortified by arcane means", "can be created only by a wizard or sorcerer of sufficient level to cst the spells", and "abilities are used as if the spells were cast by a sorcerer" are all potentially relevant quotes). However... I have a question related to this template. I was thinking of enhancing a couple of ghouls with it... and was wondering how touch spells interact with natural attacks and the ghoul's paralysis effect? Is it simply the touch of the ghoul which paralyzes, or is it somehow connected to the act of bite/claw? Can touch spells be discharged through the act of a claw attack, or does the somatic component/touch action preclude the act of clawing? Any suggestions, explanations, reasons for explanations, and references to sections of the rules would be appreciated. As for a favorite monster... ghouls/ghasts with touch spells could be a real pain depending on what the ruling to that question is. Fun spell choices are generally area effects that the undead are immune/resistant to, or a variety of impairment spells (web, obscuring mist, fog cloud, etc.). Not sure if there's a good reason to give an undead such spells as Halt Undead, Gentle Repose, and Undeath to Death, though.
Incenjucar 08-15-04, 05:16 PM	One or the other. Just like you can't accidentally get energy-drained by a vampire. However, you could always decide to be evil.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-15-04, 09:52 PM	One time I designed a spellstitched monk death knight. I put some neat things like Mage Armor on him, and added a few touch spells. I use the Tome and Blood ruling that you can use a touch range spell in conjunction with an unarmed attack, but you forgoe the touch portion and instead resolve it as a normal attack. Hmm . . . I'll have to see what school Spell flower from Savage Species is, that might be useful. If not, I can make a magic item that has it, or something.