Better versions of Devils and Demons from FF? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Better versions of Devils and Demons from FF? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chronomage
05-14-04, 09:33 AM I was just taking a look at the Klurichir and the Paeliryon, and they both seem...extremely WEAK for their CRs. Especially when compared to the new Balor and pit fiends, in 3.5. Seems they should have more hit dice, better ability scores, and all around better armor classes (well, that mainly for the CR 25 Klurichir who has 34). Has anyone else noticed this, and are there places I should go for more up to date or revised stats? Just got the FF, and want to make optimal use in my upcoming campaign (starts at 10th, goes to 30th +).

And when I say better ability scores and hit die, I'm considering those for more hit points, better BAB and AB, and a better ini, saves, and AC. For their stations and CRs, they really need a tune up.
Chronomage
05-16-04, 02:48 AM Come ON, people, there's gotta be somebody out there that knows where spiffier versions of these guys are, or can hint the ways they should be upgraded in 3.5 to EARN their CRs?
Chronomage
05-16-04, 07:09 PM The reason I assume their not quite right is that the Balor, CR 20, is SOOOO much better than the Paeliryon, CR 22, or even the Klurichir, CR 25. Does ANYONE have any suggestions?

I was looking at the Klurichir in the Fiend Folio and comparing it to the Balor. So far, I am aghast at how much more powerful the Balor is, even though he's only CR 20 and the Klurichir is CR 25! I mean, check it out:

Klurichir has 20d8+120 (210 hp), AC 34, BAB +20, is huge, ini +2, spd 50 fly 90 poor full attack starting at +30 with a +3 weapon; SR 36, Str 29, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 23.

Balor has 20d8+200 (290 hp), AC 35 BAB +20, is large, Ini +11, spd 40, fly 90 good, full attack starging at +31 with a +1 weapon and a weapon in the off hand; SR 28, Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26.

The Balor is clearly superior as a CR 20 monster, than the Klurichir is at CR 25.

What needs to be done to recalculate the Klurichirs CR, and increase it to 25? I was thinking ALL of it's ability scores need to be increased, it needs more hit die, better flight speed, and better feats.

And this is not JUST the Klurichir in the book I am asking this question for. The CR 22/23 (?) Paeliryon is also not adequate for it's CR.
Freefall
05-16-04, 10:34 PM Yeah, demons and devils were pretty pathetic back in 3.0. I'm glad they got the boost, but now a lot of stuff that was made to balance against them (like the FF and MMII and especially BoVD, as well as 3rd party products like Green Ronin's Book of Fiends) seems appalingly weak.

Anyway, there was a thread started on this just recently by Dackad, on these very boards. It's called something like "Demons/Devils/Daemons revised/converted". If you do a search with the word "Daemon", or just look through the last 2 or 3 pages on this forum, you should be able to find it. I don't remember specifically which critters got changed there though, but if you bump it, maybe they could help you with the Klurichir thing.

Your other option is to just drop the CR of all those critterrs. Kind of depends on how much you like them really. If you like Klurichirs, boost their stats. Increasing them by about the same amount that Balors got boosted is probably a good starting point, then maybe adjust things a little if they still seem off or if the flavor doesn't quite fit (when I upgraded the Armageddon Beast I didn't boost its Dex by 10, for example, because it is basically a dragon/hydra thing, so it didn't seem like a natural dex of 18 was appropriate).

Or, if you don't care so much for them, just drop their CR to something that seems more appropriate, like maybe 17 or so. Depends on all their special powers, but they don't seem too much tougher than a Cornugon. Any flavor text that mentions them being tougher than Balors or Pit Fiends you can ignore, or take it is IC (i.e. the thing thinks that Balors/Pit Fiends live in fear of them, but really they are just deluded megalomaniacs).
Chronomage
05-16-04, 11:05 PM Thanks for the reply, freefall. I'll look for that "Daemon" thread.
Dackad
05-17-04, 12:41 AM To answer your question, yes I'll probably update those. The Klurichir and the Kelvezu (from the MMII) definitely, but I'll most likely get around to the Paelyrion and the Myrmixicus as well.

The Xerfilstyx looks like a good challenge for its CR, so I may leave that one alone...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chronomage 05-14-04, 09:33 AM	I was just taking a look at the Klurichir and the Paeliryon, and they both seem...extremely WEAK for their CRs. Especially when compared to the new Balor and pit fiends, in 3.5. Seems they should have more hit dice, better ability scores, and all around better armor classes (well, that mainly for the CR 25 Klurichir who has 34). Has anyone else noticed this, and are there places I should go for more up to date or revised stats? Just got the FF, and want to make optimal use in my upcoming campaign (starts at 10th, goes to 30th +). And when I say better ability scores and hit die, I'm considering those for more hit points, better BAB and AB, and a better ini, saves, and AC. For their stations and CRs, they really need a tune up.
Chronomage 05-16-04, 02:48 AM	Come ON, people, there's gotta be somebody out there that knows where spiffier versions of these guys are, or can hint the ways they should be upgraded in 3.5 to EARN their CRs?
Chronomage 05-16-04, 07:09 PM	The reason I assume their not quite right is that the Balor, CR 20, is SOOOO much better than the Paeliryon, CR 22, or even the Klurichir, CR 25. Does ANYONE have any suggestions? I was looking at the Klurichir in the Fiend Folio and comparing it to the Balor. So far, I am aghast at how much more powerful the Balor is, even though he's only CR 20 and the Klurichir is CR 25! I mean, check it out: Klurichir has 20d8+120 (210 hp), AC 34, BAB +20, is huge, ini +2, spd 50 fly 90 poor full attack starting at +30 with a +3 weapon; SR 36, Str 29, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 23. Balor has 20d8+200 (290 hp), AC 35 BAB +20, is large, Ini +11, spd 40, fly 90 good, full attack starging at +31 with a +1 weapon and a weapon in the off hand; SR 28, Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26. The Balor is clearly superior as a CR 20 monster, than the Klurichir is at CR 25. What needs to be done to recalculate the Klurichirs CR, and increase it to 25? I was thinking ALL of it's ability scores need to be increased, it needs more hit die, better flight speed, and better feats. And this is not JUST the Klurichir in the book I am asking this question for. The CR 22/23 (?) Paeliryon is also not adequate for it's CR.
Freefall 05-16-04, 10:34 PM	Yeah, demons and devils were pretty pathetic back in 3.0. I'm glad they got the boost, but now a lot of stuff that was made to balance against them (like the FF and MMII and especially BoVD, as well as 3rd party products like Green Ronin's Book of Fiends) seems appalingly weak. Anyway, there was a thread started on this just recently by Dackad, on these very boards. It's called something like "Demons/Devils/Daemons revised/converted". If you do a search with the word "Daemon", or just look through the last 2 or 3 pages on this forum, you should be able to find it. I don't remember specifically which critters got changed there though, but if you bump it, maybe they could help you with the Klurichir thing. Your other option is to just drop the CR of all those critterrs. Kind of depends on how much you like them really. If you like Klurichirs, boost their stats. Increasing them by about the same amount that Balors got boosted is probably a good starting point, then maybe adjust things a little if they still seem off or if the flavor doesn't quite fit (when I upgraded the Armageddon Beast I didn't boost its Dex by 10, for example, because it is basically a dragon/hydra thing, so it didn't seem like a natural dex of 18 was appropriate). Or, if you don't care so much for them, just drop their CR to something that seems more appropriate, like maybe 17 or so. Depends on all their special powers, but they don't seem too much tougher than a Cornugon. Any flavor text that mentions them being tougher than Balors or Pit Fiends you can ignore, or take it is IC (i.e. the thing thinks that Balors/Pit Fiends live in fear of them, but really they are just deluded megalomaniacs).
Chronomage 05-16-04, 11:05 PM	Thanks for the reply, freefall. I'll look for that "Daemon" thread.
Dackad 05-17-04, 12:41 AM	To answer your question, yes I'll probably update those. The Klurichir and the Kelvezu (from the MMII) definitely, but I'll most likely get around to the Paelyrion and the Myrmixicus as well. The Xerfilstyx looks like a good challenge for its CR, so I may leave that one alone...