Big problems with the Initiate of Draconic arts? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big problems with the Initiate of Draconic arts? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Joren
04-05-04, 08:04 PM I was thinking of starting a new monk character and the Initiate of the Draconic arts looked like a fun concept to follow.
Ashes (http://www.slightlyodd.co.uk/miniatures/ashes.jpg)

but looking at how the character would progress in the next few levels I'm feeling very dissapointed.

It doesn't appear to have been though through very clearly. A normal monk is a much more powerful character with more abilities, more attacks and does more damage.

The only really good ability the Initiate has is the one on the final level where he can become a dragon for an hour a day.

If the normal monk could get the ring of dragonshape or nudge a friendly wizard into polymorphing him. he'd be better in pretty much every way :( a normal monk would have +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 attacks at 2d6 damage, while an initiate would have +9/+9/+4 at 1d12. The normal monk would also be faster and have +2 to his ac.

Then it comes to what to do after the initiate of the Draconic arts has reached level 15 (5 monk, 10 initiate) he can no-longer continue as a monk in the class. His SR wont improve at all and of course SR wont stack with anything else.

I'm thinking of writing my own version of the initiate and posting the prc here but I was wondering what everyone elses thoughts on the Initiate were?
SpellBinder
04-06-04, 04:21 AM Considering that monks can't freely multiclass to this prestiege class, I believe that was the design intent that monks not do so to maximize their benefits (unless a monk starts after reaching 20th level). All the requirement feats are fighter bonus feats, if I recall, so it'd be a matter of skills for the most part, which sadly are not fighter class skills.
Will Brandiman
04-06-04, 05:26 AM Without wishing to be rude, if you don't like the PrC then don't take it. Trying to re-write it so it fits your ideal is not something that a player should be doing. That is the sole province of the DM.
Joren
04-06-04, 08:01 AM Thankfully I have a friendly DM that will allow me to change a PrC around a bit.

Mostly as I have been DMing for him for over a year now and have allowed the same sort of thing :)

The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries is a fun idea and I have a great character concept written out.

Problem is, if I continue from monk levels I'll end up with a character that wont be able to do anything of worth for the party.

In reply to Spellbinder: It's obviously a class made for monks. In the introductionary text it states that most IDM are monks, and in rare cases they're rogues rangers or barbarians.

The skill points required limit this class to monks or characters with very high int bonuses.

Looking at the character artwork http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75622.jpg&origin=dnd_ag_20031108a
it doesn't seem like a fighter clad in full plate to me. A fighter would also be better off taking two hand axes and TWF feats than this PrC. Same crit range, same damage, better BAB at top level, the axes can be enchanted and the fighter would have more attacks. Only benefit once again being the Dragonshape at the last level.

I think we'll just have to admit here that the IDM is a very badly written PrC for monks. The Tatooed monk and Drunken master are other monk themed PrCs that can be taken by different classes but don't suffer these problems.

I'm going to work on my retooling of the PRC later tonight and post it here.
Battousai
04-06-04, 04:40 PM When you attain the tenth level of the PrC,just morph into a fang dragon for dreaded damage: not only you strike as a gargantuan dragon, but you raise the damage by two steps thanks to the Increased unarmed damage ability!
That means:
Bite : 4d10
Claws: 4d6 (as a DM, I ruled that 1d10 becomes 2d6 , if I'm wrong ,just tell me)
Wings: 2d10
Tail slap: 4d6
Crush: 4d10

Quite powerful ,no? And the damage is tripled on a critical!

But other than that, I agree it's not really a powerful PrC

If you remake the PrC be sure to keep the dragon shape, it's one of the greatest abilities EVER!
Maybe an elemental strike with your natural weapons? Natural armor? Growing wings for one hour/day? Immunity to sleep?
Joren
04-06-04, 05:10 PM I'm almost done testing and rewriting the PRC, so I'll post that in another thread in a moment. I'm afraid the natural damage of a Fang Dragon isn't increased by the Initiates improved damage. Only unarmed damage.

Anyway, new thread posted soon ^_^
Battousai
04-06-04, 05:22 PM Well IMC unarmed strike means any natural attack.
If a dragon's wing is not an unarmed attack, then neither is an attack from someone with the Improved unarmed strike, which clearly says that the character considered armed!
trapspringer
04-13-04, 05:04 PM This comment is not directed at the person who started the thread, but in general I am in agreement with Brandiman. A lot of people complain about PrC in DnD and what it usually comes down to is that they are optional. If ther was something fundamentally wrong with the Fighter, Rouge, or Wizard, then a complaint would be approrpriate. Everything else is juat a bonus sold to you by the WOTC.
fiskpaj
04-14-04, 05:06 AM Why consider the prestige classes as some kind of holy gift from wotc? They are intended to make an intresting character concept a little rule support, so it will not be totally devasting to use. To take a lot of wizard levels so you can polymorph into a dragon, would be very... stupid... if you just wanted that single ability. Wotc consists of people, and they can make mistakes just like anyone else.
Joren
04-14-04, 07:28 AM Thanks Fiskpaj, that was what I was following. I have a great concept for my Character Ashes based on the background of the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries. The problem is I don't want to play a character that becomes no use to the party except for having high ranks in spot and listen. It's no fun to see the rest of the party hack and slash their way to victory while you have to stand back and try not to get killed.

In my opinion, the golden rule of Roleplaying games is that no rule is set in stone. If you and the rest of your group decide that something in the rules should be changed, then change then. Back in old 2nd Ed AD&D we played wizards in the same way as 3rd Ed Sorcerers cast spells now so we didn't have to rest for 8 hours every time we needed to 'knock' a door and everyone was happy about it.

The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries was not a very strong PrC and I strongly believed it needed modification to make it playable. After a bit of tweaking and some discussion with my DM I've put together a version of the IDM that is fairly balanced with a monk of about the same level and everyone in the group feels it's fair.

Rewritten Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215549)

It looks like playing this character is going to be a lot of fun without being overpowered... and isn't having fun what D&D is all about?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joren 04-05-04, 08:04 PM	I was thinking of starting a new monk character and the Initiate of the Draconic arts looked like a fun concept to follow. Ashes (http://www.slightlyodd.co.uk/miniatures/ashes.jpg) but looking at how the character would progress in the next few levels I'm feeling very dissapointed. It doesn't appear to have been though through very clearly. A normal monk is a much more powerful character with more abilities, more attacks and does more damage. The only really good ability the Initiate has is the one on the final level where he can become a dragon for an hour a day. If the normal monk could get the ring of dragonshape or nudge a friendly wizard into polymorphing him. he'd be better in pretty much every way :( a normal monk would have +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 attacks at 2d6 damage, while an initiate would have +9/+9/+4 at 1d12. The normal monk would also be faster and have +2 to his ac. Then it comes to what to do after the initiate of the Draconic arts has reached level 15 (5 monk, 10 initiate) he can no-longer continue as a monk in the class. His SR wont improve at all and of course SR wont stack with anything else. I'm thinking of writing my own version of the initiate and posting the prc here but I was wondering what everyone elses thoughts on the Initiate were?
SpellBinder 04-06-04, 04:21 AM	Considering that monks can't freely multiclass to this prestiege class, I believe that was the design intent that monks not do so to maximize their benefits (unless a monk starts after reaching 20th level). All the requirement feats are fighter bonus feats, if I recall, so it'd be a matter of skills for the most part, which sadly are not fighter class skills.
Will Brandiman 04-06-04, 05:26 AM	Without wishing to be rude, if you don't like the PrC then don't take it. Trying to re-write it so it fits your ideal is not something that a player should be doing. That is the sole province of the DM.
Joren 04-06-04, 08:01 AM	Thankfully I have a friendly DM that will allow me to change a PrC around a bit. Mostly as I have been DMing for him for over a year now and have allowed the same sort of thing :) The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries is a fun idea and I have a great character concept written out. Problem is, if I continue from monk levels I'll end up with a character that wont be able to do anything of worth for the party. In reply to Spellbinder: It's obviously a class made for monks. In the introductionary text it states that most IDM are monks, and in rare cases they're rogues rangers or barbarians. The skill points required limit this class to monks or characters with very high int bonuses. Looking at the character artwork http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75622.jpg&origin=dnd_ag_20031108a it doesn't seem like a fighter clad in full plate to me. A fighter would also be better off taking two hand axes and TWF feats than this PrC. Same crit range, same damage, better BAB at top level, the axes can be enchanted and the fighter would have more attacks. Only benefit once again being the Dragonshape at the last level. I think we'll just have to admit here that the IDM is a very badly written PrC for monks. The Tatooed monk and Drunken master are other monk themed PrCs that can be taken by different classes but don't suffer these problems. I'm going to work on my retooling of the PRC later tonight and post it here.
Battousai 04-06-04, 04:40 PM	When you attain the tenth level of the PrC,just morph into a fang dragon for dreaded damage: not only you strike as a gargantuan dragon, but you raise the damage by two steps thanks to the Increased unarmed damage ability! That means: Bite : 4d10 Claws: 4d6 (as a DM, I ruled that 1d10 becomes 2d6 , if I'm wrong ,just tell me) Wings: 2d10 Tail slap: 4d6 Crush: 4d10 Quite powerful ,no? And the damage is tripled on a critical! But other than that, I agree it's not really a powerful PrC If you remake the PrC be sure to keep the dragon shape, it's one of the greatest abilities EVER! Maybe an elemental strike with your natural weapons? Natural armor? Growing wings for one hour/day? Immunity to sleep?
Joren 04-06-04, 05:10 PM	I'm almost done testing and rewriting the PRC, so I'll post that in another thread in a moment. I'm afraid the natural damage of a Fang Dragon isn't increased by the Initiates improved damage. Only unarmed damage. Anyway, new thread posted soon ^_^
Battousai 04-06-04, 05:22 PM	Well IMC unarmed strike means any natural attack. If a dragon's wing is not an unarmed attack, then neither is an attack from someone with the Improved unarmed strike, which clearly says that the character considered armed!
trapspringer 04-13-04, 05:04 PM	This comment is not directed at the person who started the thread, but in general I am in agreement with Brandiman. A lot of people complain about PrC in DnD and what it usually comes down to is that they are optional. If ther was something fundamentally wrong with the Fighter, Rouge, or Wizard, then a complaint would be approrpriate. Everything else is juat a bonus sold to you by the WOTC.
fiskpaj 04-14-04, 05:06 AM	Why consider the prestige classes as some kind of holy gift from wotc? They are intended to make an intresting character concept a little rule support, so it will not be totally devasting to use. To take a lot of wizard levels so you can polymorph into a dragon, would be very... stupid... if you just wanted that single ability. Wotc consists of people, and they can make mistakes just like anyone else.
Joren 04-14-04, 07:28 AM	Thanks Fiskpaj, that was what I was following. I have a great concept for my Character Ashes based on the background of the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries. The problem is I don't want to play a character that becomes no use to the party except for having high ranks in spot and listen. It's no fun to see the rest of the party hack and slash their way to victory while you have to stand back and try not to get killed. In my opinion, the golden rule of Roleplaying games is that no rule is set in stone. If you and the rest of your group decide that something in the rules should be changed, then change then. Back in old 2nd Ed AD&D we played wizards in the same way as 3rd Ed Sorcerers cast spells now so we didn't have to rest for 8 hours every time we needed to 'knock' a door and everyone was happy about it. The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries was not a very strong PrC and I strongly believed it needed modification to make it playable. After a bit of tweaking and some discussion with my DM I've put together a version of the IDM that is fairly balanced with a monk of about the same level and everyone in the group feels it's fair. Rewritten Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215549) It looks like playing this character is going to be a lot of fun without being overpowered... and isn't having fun what D&D is all about?