Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jancarius 12-17-06, 07:54 PM	So, for Christmas, I bought my girlfriend the gargantuan black dragon mini. I have the Colossal red sitting by my bed, and my players are actually rolling L20s just to fight the one I statted out. So I thought it would be neat to stat out my girlfriends dragon as part of her present, and write a story for it. Well, as I was statting out this great wrym black, I was like "Man, have blacks always been this weak? My red could tear this dude apart without even trying." With about a third of the treasure as a Great Wrym Red, much lower stats, much weaker casting, and a puny d4 breath weapon, I would say that a great wrym black is in power comparable to L20 normal characters, and inferior in power to L20 Wizards, Clerics, or Druids, not to even go into expanded core classes. Can anyone give me suggestions on how to make my black a little more effective? Basically, I want him to have lots of stealth 'attack and fade' abilities, and I've given him multiple Improved Manuver so he can outfly any other dragon.
ank 12-19-06, 09:16 PM	Ya, ive got some suggestions for you. First, you express the fact that the breath weapon is relatively weak in comparison to ther dragons. To compensate, give it the clinging breath feat from the Draconomicon to have it deal half original damage for every extra round you delay your breath weapon; this ought to hurt the players a great deal unless they waste a turn making a reflex check to take it off. Now, if they choose to scrape the acid off, have your dragon cast darkness, invisabilty, or (better yet) greater invisability; I find it surprising how many characters have no defense against these common sneaky tactics. Next, give your dragon the tail sweep feat from Draconomicon to increase the tail sweep range to a 360 degree arc. This will catch all the players for descent damage and knock down at least some of them. I recomend using acid fog at this time, it deals 2d6 damage a turn and works as a solid fog, so the pcs cant move more than 5 feet per turn in it. Also, since your dragon has immune acid, it is not affected! Giving your dragon the awesome blow feat will allow you to outmanuver the party fighters unless they use range weapons (in which case the dragon still has concealment). Now, to deal with those pesky spellcasters, give it spellcasting harrier (prerequisite combat reflexes) from the draconomicon. This allows your dragon to make attacks of opportunity against spellcasters when they cast defensively; you get a +4 bonus on this roll. If you stay close to them, they have to compete with massive damage, concentration checks, and spell resistance to do any real damage to him. If you feel really mean, give it the undying vigor of the dragonlords (5th level spells from Dragon Magic). Alone, it heals 5d6 damage, but you can sacrifice a spells slot and add +1d6 healing for each spell level of the spell sacrificed in this way. Hope this has helped you in some way.
Jancarius 12-19-06, 10:06 PM	Quite helpful, actually.
Bluehero 12-19-06, 11:22 PM	Also, if you want to advance it past a regular dragon there was stats for an advanced mystic theurge black dragon that went from Cr 20-30+ in one of the articles on the wizards.com site a while back. It's still in the archives somewhere.
Jancarius 12-19-06, 11:50 PM	Nah, I'm trying to make it dangerous without further increasing it's HD, CR, or application of class levels or any such things. Ya, ive got some suggestions for you. First, you express the fact that the breath weapon is relatively weak in comparison to ther dragons. To compensate, give it the clinging breath feat from the Draconomicon to have it deal half original damage for every extra round you delay your breath weapon; this ought to hurt the players a great deal unless they waste a turn making a reflex check to take it off. Now, if they choose to scrape the acid off, have your dragon cast darkness, invisabilty, or (better yet) greater invisability; I find it surprising how many characters have no defense against these common sneaky tactics. Next, give your dragon the tail sweep feat from Draconomicon to increase the tail sweep range to a 360 degree arc. This will catch all the players for descent damage and knock down at least some of them. I recomend using acid fog at this time, it deals 2d6 damage a turn and works as a solid fog, so the pcs cant move more than 5 feet per turn in it. Also, since your dragon has immune acid, it is not affected! Giving your dragon the awesome blow feat will allow you to outmanuver the party fighters unless they use range weapons (in which case the dragon still has concealment). Now, to deal with those pesky spellcasters, give it spellcasting harrier (prerequisite combat reflexes) from the draconomicon. This allows your dragon to make attacks of opportunity against spellcasters when they cast defensively; you get a +4 bonus on this roll. If you stay close to them, they have to compete with massive damage, concentration checks, and spell resistance to do any real damage to him. If you feel really mean, give it the undying vigor of the dragonlords (5th level spells from Dragon Magic). Alone, it heals 5d6 damage, but you can sacrifice a spells slot and add +1d6 healing for each spell level of the spell sacrificed in this way. Hope this has helped you in some way.One question though. Where is the Awesome Blow feat?
ank 12-20-06, 05:57 PM	Its actually in chapter 6 of the monster manual. Prerequisites include large size, power attack, and some other feat (improved bull rush i think). It allows you to take -4 penalty on an attack roll but if it hits, the opponent is knocked backwards 10' and falls prone.
Gnarl 12-21-06, 04:09 AM	One question though. Where is the Awesome Blow feat? Monster Manual :D
Executor_5 12-21-06, 04:11 PM	Important things to note when designing a great black wyrm is that it has a weak breath weapon and its spellcasting abilities aren't spectacular. Recommended spells: dispelling breath (4), dimensional anchor (4), forcecage (7), teleport (5), shield (1), mage armor (1), haste (3), energy immunity (7) [Tome and Blood], superior magic fang (5) [added to wiz/sorc list in Draconomicon], disintegrate (6), bull's strength (2), antimagic field (6). Recommended feats: Rapidstrike (wings) [Draconomicon], Rapidstrike (claws) [Draconomicon], Snatch, Rend, Multiattack, Awaken Spell Resistance [Draconomicon], Combat Reflexes, Spellcasting Harrier [Draconomicon], Hover, Flyby attack. You might want to give it a few useful magical items, particularly if it has Craft Wondrous Item. Even if not, it would likely be able coerce a wizard to craft it some items, or visit a city via polymorph. Particularly handy items include: cloak of resistance +4 or +5, cloak of charisma +4 or +6 (probably crafted as a headband or necklace if the dragon has a cloak of resistance already), gem of moderate (15,000gp, 75% crit resistance) or heavy fortification (35,000gp, 100% crit resistance) [Draconomicon], claws of the ripper (2,000gp, x4 instead of x2 damage on claw crits) [Draconomicon]. Black dragons are not the most brilliant of dragon species, but a great black wyrm nonetheless possesses genius-level intellect and wisdom. It's going to recognize immediately that the party isn't a bunch of low-level humanoids who have accidentally stumbled on its lair; they're not cowering in fear, they have their weapons ready. It'll realize after using its breath weapon for the first time that they're resistant or immune to acid damage. Dispelling is difficult with regular magic, if you have Draconomicon, I highly recommend giving the dragon dispelling breath and using that as part of its opening breath. It's a targetted dispel versus everyone caught in the breath who fail their Reflex save, and will wipe about 30% of a 20th-level caster's buffs. Highest priority targets to kill first should be any mages because they have the most powerful ranged attacks, and healers, notably clerics. Wizards and sorcerers should be readily recognized since they don't wear armor. It might be difficult to distinguish between a cleric and a paladin at first, since they'll both have holy symbols and wear heavy armor. Once a PC casts a spell that is unique to the class, the dragon will easily make its Spellcraft check and know which class it is. A great black wyrm's SR isn't reliable unless it has the Awaken Spell Resistance feat. A few possible ways of dealing with the party: 1) Put up an antimagic field and fly into melee range. This obviously negates the use of its breath weapon, but that's not much of a sacrfiice. The dragon doesn't need magical buffs and items to be a butcher on the battlefield, the same can't be said for the PCs. They lose any magical bonuses to AC and Con that they have, which means their maximum AC will be ~20 and they could lose up to 25% of their health. The wyrm can Power Attack for a significant amount such as +20 and still be guaranteed a hit on everything except a roll of 1 (note that in the Power Attack feat description, weapons that get a 1.5 Str bonus to damage receive double the bonus damage from Power Attack, so in the case of the wyrm, the tail slap will receive +40 damage from a +20 Power Attack). Assuming no other feats besides Power Attack, no misses and no crits and a +20 Power Attack, the dragon will do around 250 damage on a full attack, basically a guaranteed kill. If the PCs bring the antimagic field down with a Mordenkainen's disjunction, simply recast. 2) If the dragon doesn't have antimagic field, rushing in to do full attacks is still a viable tactic, but much riskier. Make sure you have at least haste up, preferably also shield/mage armor/bull's strength and the like. Rush into the back and do a full attack on the mage. Be very careful with power attack. Unless you spend a while dispelling the party's buffs, their AC is likely to be much higher than normal. Versus a mage, you don't need to power attack, your regular full attack will be more than sufficient to kill in one round. Against other classes, power attack for a small to modest amount unless they have a shield. You don't want to be missing on anything except a natural 1. If you can kill off the casters, then take to the air to evade the melee classes unless you're still at 70+% health. Keep using your breath weapon (combined with dispelling breath) and fireballs, disintegrates, etc. to wear them down. You can also dimensional anchor and forcecage (solid cage so they can't shoot arrows), allowing you to deal with the PCs one at a time. Dimensional anchor is highly recommended since most dragons/outsiders/high-level adventurers will have access to some means of teleportation. 3) Finally, there's the stand-off option, where you don't engage in melee immediately, but it requires lots of room to maneuver. A black dragon doesn't have access to heal, so it doesn't have the staying power of a red or blue. Therefore, it's preferable not to engage them when they're clustered together and can all attack you at once. Instead, stay in the air and out of range to buy time to use its dispelling breath weapon a few times (the breath weapon has a 120-foot range). The Flyby Attack feat comes in real handy here. Keep flying away from them and make them chase you. Toss some dimensional anchors on some of the melee classes, readying them for a forcecage if the party splits up. Ideally, some will use their entire turn to fly after you while others will stop to cast a spell or two. Maybe one will get annoyed and teleports over (either through the spell or a magic item). If you can get one isolated, 1-2 rounds worth of full attacks should be enough to rip them to shreds, and don't forget, heal is a touch range spell, so their cleric won't be able to intervene. If they do stick together, then you'll need to break them apart yourself. Teleport next to the mage. If the mage tries to fly away, they'll provoke an AoO and you can snatch them up (as per the feat). If you have the Spellcasting Harrier feat, then if the mage tries to teleport away, you'll get an AoO, meaning that they'll likely fail the DC 40+ Concentration check and you'll get the opportunity to snatch them. Once you've got ahold of them, fly off and dispose of them. One advantage you have is that you're a sorcerer, you can keep recasting your buffs while they have a very limited capacity to dispel you or cast new buffs on themselves (unless they have a sorcerer of their own). The most important buff to keep up is haste for the increased speed and extra attack. If their casters are favoring a certain type of elemental attack spell, cast energy immunity.
mvincent 12-21-06, 07:47 PM	for Christmas, I bought my girlfriend the gargantuan black dragon miniThis is off-topic, but I just have to ask: could she possibly construe this as a gift more for yourself (i.e. does she DM and/or have use for it)?
Roivas 12-22-06, 01:32 AM	Keep in mind also, a black dragon is an aquatic creature. Forcing the players to confront an enemy under water with the spell dispelling breath can teach players that a natural swim speed and natural weapons bring natural victory. A black dragon is weak on land, but it's might comes from hitting the players from a location they can't easily attack.
Gnarl 12-22-06, 03:35 AM	This is off-topic, but I just have to ask: could she possibly construe this as a gift more for yourself (i.e. does she DM and/or have use for it)? Hush, we all thought the same thing :D.
Jancarius 12-22-06, 04:51 PM	This is off-topic, but I just have to ask: could she possibly construe this as a gift more for yourself (i.e. does she DM and/or have use for it)? It's like getting her a stuffed animal, only it's a mini. And I'm going to make a point of never asking her for use of it unless she volunteers it.
Jancarius 12-22-06, 05:25 PM	Onystrax Male Neutral Evil Gargantuan Great Wrym Black Dragon Strength 37(+13) Dexterity 15(+2)=10(Base)+5(Inherent) Constitution 32(+11)=27(Base)+5(Inherent) Intelligence 20(+5) Wisdom 21(+5) Charisma 22(+6)=20(Base)+2(Inherent) HP 684 AC 52=10-4(Size)+36(Natural)+2(Dex)+4(Armor)+4(Sh ield) Touch/Flatfooted AC 8/50 Fortitude +31=+20 (Dragon) +11(Constitution) Reflex +22=+20 (Dragon) +2(Dexterity) Will +25=+20 (Dragon) +5 (Wisdom) Initiative +2=+2(Dex) Speed 60 ft 200 ft Fly (Poor) 60ft Swim BAB-Grapple +37 +62 (+37 BAB +13 Strength +12 Size) EXP: n/a Feats Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Hover, Combat Reflexes, Snatch, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Large and in Charge, Recover Breath Weapon, Rend, Spellcasting Harrier, Tailsweep Knockdown, Whirlwind Tailsweep Abilities Dragon traits: Frightful Presence (DC 34), DR 20/magic, immune to sleep, acid, and paralysis, Darkness 3/day, Insect Plague 3/day, plant growth 1/day, corrupt water 1/day, charm reptiles 3/day, spell resistance 28, Blindsense 60 feet, keen senses, darkvision 120 feet, Languages: Common, Draconic, Skills Appraise +5=+5(Int) Balance +2=+2(Dex) Bluff +6=+6(Cha) Climb +13=+13(Str) (x)Concentration +51=40 Ranks +11(Con) Decipher Script +5=+5(Int) (x)Diplomacy +6=+6(Cha) Disable Device Untrained Disguise +20=14.0 ranks +6(Cha) (x)Escape Artist +2=+2(Dex) Forgery +5=+5(Int) Gather Information +6=+6(Cha) Handle Animal +6=+6(Cha) Heal +5=+5(Wis) (x)Hide +30=40 ranks +2(Dex)-12(Size) (x)Intimidate +46=40 ranks +6(Cha) Jump +17=+17(Str) (x)Knowledge (Arcana) +47=40 Ranks +5(Int)+2 (Synergy, Spellcraft) (x)Knowledge (Religion) +20=15 rank +5(Int) (x)Knowledge (History) +25=20 Ranks+5(Int) (x)Knowledge (Nature) +45=40 rank +5(Int) (x)Knowledge (Planes) +15=10 rank +5(Int) (x)Knowledge (Geography) +30=25 rank +5 (Int) (x)Listen +25=20 ranks + 5(Wis) (x)Move Silently +10=20 ranks +2(Dex)-12(Size) Open Lock Untrained Ride +2=+2(Dex) (x)Search +10= 5 ranks +5(Int) (x)Sense Motive +7=2 ranks +5(Wis) Sleight of Hand Untrained Spellcraft +29=20.0 ranks +5(Int)+4 (Synergy Knowledge Arcana) (x)Spot +30=25 ranks +5(Wis) Survival +5=+5(Wis) (x)Swim +23=10 ranks +13(Str) Tumble Untrained (x)Use Magic Device +26=20 ranks+6(Cha) Use Rope +2=+2(Dex) Spells Spells per day: 6/8/8/7/7/7/7/4 Spells known: 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2 Caster level: 15 Base Save DCs=16=10+6(Charisma) Spells Known: 0th- detect magic, read magic, mage hand, arcane mark, prestidigitation, amanuensis, electric jolt, acid splash, cure minor wounds 1st- charm person, backbiter, lesser orb of acid, shield, mage armor, 2nd- entice gift, earthbind, wings of air, wraithstrike, scorching ray, 3rd- suppress breath weapon, suspend silence, haste, spell vulnerability 4th- polymorph, improved invisibility, dimension door, burning blood 5th- dispelling breath, shadowfade, breath weapon substitution, teleport, 6th- true seeing, acid fog, greater anticipate teleportation, 7th- energy immunity, forcecage Scrolls Telekinesis, wall of iron Attacks Bite +47 (4d6+13) or claw +47 (2d8+13) or wing slam +47 (2d6+13) or tail slap +47 (2d8+19) or crush (4d6+19 DC 36) or tail sweep (2d6+19 DC 36) Full attack: Bite +47 (4d6+13), 2 claws +45/45 (2d8+6) ->Rend 4d8+18, 2 wings +45/45 (2d6+6), and tail slap +45 (2d8+19) Full attack w/haste: Bite +47/47 (4d6+13), 2 claws +45/45 (2d8+6) ->Rend 4d8+18, 2 wings +45/45 (2d6+6), and tail slap +45 (2d8+19) Breath weapon: 120 ft line of acid, 24d4 damage, Reflex save DC 36 for half Hoard +3 longsword of speed, staff of the woodlands, +5 heavy crossbow, crystal ball with telepathy, staff of divination, crystal ball with true seeing, staff of defense, +4 studded leather of acid resistance and moderate fortification, 51,000 gold pieces 3,200 platinum 45 gems, 24 art Items used from hoard tome of leadership +2, ring of spell storing, ring of elemental command (Water), Pearl of Power (9th), wand of fear (CL 5 DC 18), manual of bodily health +5, manual of gainful exercise +5Here is my dragon so far. The treasure for the dragon was randomly rolled out of the DMG tables, I may switch some of it out for Draconomican items.
ank 12-23-06, 09:05 AM	Looks very good, I like it. May I be the first to recomend a Pool of scrying from the draconomicon? It allows the user to scy in its depths at will. Along that same line I would also recomend an inscription of vacancy (protection from scrying for everyone in the cavern). Between the two it allows the dragon to keep tabs on the outside world without being seen. Also, if the PCs get crafty they too can gain the benefits of such a room IF they manage to defeat Onystrax.
ank 12-23-06, 09:21 AM	Im sorry, but I just thought of something on a complete and utterly unimportant (but humorous) tangeant regarding that pool of scrying He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake... He's making a list, and checking it twice... Don't you people see!? Santa is a :dragon: !!! Making a list, he going over his hoard for the fiftieth time. Little elves? Kobald slaves! Reindeer? well, thats probably superstition. And Besides, who else has the kind of money to keep such a large scale operation running in the first place hmmmm? We've been tricked! P.S. :heehee
Jancarius 12-24-06, 03:48 PM	Forcecage trick was a great idea BTW, but I'm not sure dragons would use it. The material component ain't cheap and dragons aren't inclined to go dusting rubies from their hoard.
LivingShadow 12-24-06, 04:27 PM	I suggest tempest breath (Draconumicon) to try to blow the PCs over a cliff or something. Also I suggest Lair wards (or whatever those are called) to help protect his lair.
Executor_5 12-24-06, 05:06 PM	Forcecage trick was a great idea BTW, but I'm not sure dragons would use it. The material component ain't cheap and dragons aren't inclined to go dusting rubies from their hoard. Except that a level 20 PC has about twice the loot of a great wyrm. A full party will have close to ten times its treasure hoard. The minor cost expenditures on the forcecage spell will be paid back a hundredfold once the dragon loots their bodies.
Jancarius 12-24-06, 05:31 PM	Yeah, in terms of cost. I dunno, I've always imagined dragons as kind of like how I play RPGs (video game ones). Me: Oh man, I'm almost dead and all my party members are out of MP! What do I do? Girlfriend: What about those like 6 megaelixirs you're carrying? Me: I can't use those, I might need them! Girlfriend: It's the LAST BOSS! Me: What if I need them on new game+? Girlfriend: Wouldn't you then be even MORE powerful than before, plus having gained all the same megaelixirs and elixirs from another play through? Me: Fine... I'll use a megalixir.
yrogerg 12-28-06, 09:15 PM	Yeah, in terms of cost. I dunno, I've always imagined dragons as kind of like how I play RPGs (video game ones). Me: Oh man, I'm almost dead and all my party members are out of MP! What do I do? Girlfriend: What about those like 6 megaelixirs you're carrying? Me: I can't use those, I might need them! Girlfriend: It's the LAST BOSS! Me: What if I need them on new game+? Girlfriend: Wouldn't you then be even MORE powerful than before, plus having gained all the same megaelixirs and elixirs from another play through? Me: Fine... I'll use a megalixir. Funny thing is, I'm familiar enough with that particular hoarding mentality that I'm wondering how you made it to the end of Chrono Trigger and only managed to stock up 6 megaelixirs.:D
Dumat 12-29-06, 03:32 PM	This goes without saying, but your choice of battlefield is essential. Water water water water water. And don't forget to use it's foul water ability to ruin those healing potions.
Galeigh 12-29-06, 10:47 PM	I've noticed this as well, for all the hype surrounding the black dragon they're exceeding weak easily outmatched by the reds. There's really no way around this thats the way things are in D&D. but they are one of the coolest looking of the dragons :D
Jancarius 12-30-06, 02:48 AM	This goes without saying, but your choice of battlefield is essential. Water water water water water. And don't forget to use it's foul water ability to ruin those healing potions. Yeah, I'm thinking this is the real key to victory with this dragon.