Blind-sight and Mirror Image [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blind-sight and Mirror Image [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stensler
10-22-03, 04:04 AM Would a Dragon with Blindsight (or any creature with blindsight for that matter) Be able to pick out the real person in the shifting images? I am of the opinion that if the room was totally dark the dragon would be able to hit the real image. So why wouldn't it in normal light conditions?

Reason I ask is because the Mature Adult Red Dragon was only being damaged by our Sorcerer who had 7 images and she backed herself into a corner where the dragon was slowly, round by round, widling down her images, just as she is about to fly away. He didn't want that. Then I remembered the dragons Blindsight and Snatch feat, *bing* mirror image this mage your suddenly held. Much to the anger of the group.

Thoughts?
Bopple
10-22-03, 04:26 AM Dragons have blindsense, not blindsight.
Blindsense != Blindsight

Blindsense means you don't need spot or listen check to notice the existence of the opponent or to decide the location of him.

If you want to hit an invisible or displaced foe without penalty, to discern real one among mirror images, or to see normally while blinded, you need blindsight.

Edit) BTW, if you are using 3.0, dragons have blindsight.
Therefore virtually no illusion work against dragons in that case.(except for non-visual illusions and phantasms)
The Abominable Darkling
10-22-03, 04:55 AM A creature with blindsight can "see" be non-visual means, but unless otherwise stated, it sees by normal means too. A 3.0 dragon can certainly see the mirror images and thus would be fooled by them. Nevertheless, if for some reason the dragon was deprived of its normal vision (perhaps because it closed its eyes), then the mirror image would have no effect.
Bopple
10-22-03, 05:21 AM That's the main reason why I like the change of 3.5 dragon - blindsense.
It's awkward/twitchy to let creatures with normal sight have blindsight ... especially when considering normal creatures would blink their eyes continually.
the_heart
10-22-03, 07:02 AM why would a dragon need to close his eyes to use blindsight? surely it is an extra sense that the dragon is used to using in conjunction with it's other senses. poor analogy, but we don't block our ears to smell something...
MO, it's a 6th sense that the dragon would be adept at filtering conflicting information from and judging which is accurate.

and blindsight would defeat visual illusions...scary dragons
Mr.Waesel
10-22-03, 07:09 AM Originally posted by Bopple
Blindsense != Blindsight

Heh. Do you use mathematica?
Boondoggle
10-22-03, 07:16 AM People often close their eyes to concentrate on hearing better.

Visual stimulus is what most creatures rely on as their main observation of the world. I would only let the dragon ignore the figments if it closed its eyes. For melee combat, this would obviously greatly reduce your miss chances from 8/9 (or so) to 1/2 (or 1/4 with blind-fight)

However, closing ones eyes to avoid the effects of a mirror image also means one can't cast targeted spells at the foe. "You must be able to see or touch the target."
the_heart
10-22-03, 07:46 AM although technically you could argue that blindsight fulfills that requirement....also if you are relying on blindsight don't you negate miss chances?!?

hmm valid point re: hearing. depends on how fully integrated blindsight is amongst the senses, i guess.

it's not that easy to imagine, it would be second nature to a dragon, but the thought of that much extra sensory input is kinda intimidating to me.
Stensler
10-22-03, 01:21 PM Edit) BTW, if you are using 3.0, dragons have blindsight.
Therefore virtually no illusion work against dragons in that case.(except for non-visual illusions and phantasms)

I am using 3.0. sorry for not stating that.

And as for the rest of the replies... It specifically states in the montrous manual that Blindsight is the ability to use your other senses to see. It says that each creature will have specifics on what senses it uses.

Under the dragon entry it states 'A Dragon can asertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues)...'

So in the case of mirror image all it would have to do is smell the ilusion and realize which one was the real person. At least thats how I ruled during the game. The Sorcerer was standing directly in front of the dragon. The dragon was about to unleash a barrage of mellee attacks on the sorcerer, when I realized that it could see through low level illusions like mirror image that have no olfactory component. They killed the bugger anyway about 11 rounds later.

Thanks for the replies btw.
The Abominable Darkling
10-22-03, 01:30 PM But why do you assume the dragon's brain would give greater weight to its sense of smell than to its vision? There are a number of experiments you can do on humans regarding this very subject. When the brain receives contradictory information from two or more of its senses, it tries to compensate. For humans, this usually means that it will create false sensations that agree with what it's seeing.

How a dragon's brain works is naturally anybody's guess, but it's also irrelevant. If the designer's had intended blindsight to negate illusions, they would have said so. You're free to rule as you see fit, but be aware that you're making blindsight more powerful than was intended.
Stensler
10-22-03, 02:05 PM Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling
If the designer's had intended blindsight to negate illusions, they would have said so.

ok heres the full text of the general Blindsight Special Quality from page 8 of the MM 3.0.

Bindsight (Ex): Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, scent, acute hearing, or echo location, the creature manuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility and darkness are irellevent, though the creature still can't discern ethereal beings. The ability's range is specified in the creatures descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability.

Now here is the description from the dragon descriptive text Page 62 of the MM 3.0.

Blindsight (Ex): A Dragon can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues) with a range of 30 feet x the dragons age catogory.

It says it can 'see' through Invisibility. I am assuming the way a dragon does this is by smelling and feeling a creature walking on the ground, who is using the Invisibility Glamour. I don't think it would have to close its eyes either, for a second the dragon would try to ascertain which image is the true image, with an 18 Int and ranks to spellcraft it would be a breeze to realize that in order to know where the offending sorcerer is. All it would have to do is smell her out, thus it would think to itself 'In this situation I cannot rely on my eyes, I must smell the witch out in order for her to not chain lightning me again.'

But you are right, this, like the 3.0 rules, the Constitution of the United states, and the bill of rights is subject to interpretaion...
Boondoggle
10-22-03, 04:04 PM I would still adjudicate it such that if the dragon closes his eyes, he would recieve no (since this is 3.0) miss chance, but would still be unable to target the foe with spells without mirror image coming into play.

Of course, the dragon still should have closed his eyes, snatched the stupid mage and breathed on him a few times.
Derren S.
10-22-03, 05:03 PM Come one people. By your logic a Silent Image is as good as a Major Image because noone can see, hear and feel the same time. If you see a lion you have to first close your ears to see if it is real, than you have to close your eyes to hear if the lion roars or not and then you have close your ears and eyes and stick your leg into its maw to feel if it bites and only then you get your Save against a Silent Image and you won't get a save when the lion roars without sound, than claws you and its claws pass right through you because you had your eyes open and couldn't hear or feel at that time so you can't trust your hearing and feeling.

The dragon sees that there are 7 images of the mage and his hearing, scent, and the air vibrations tellt him which image is real and which are illusions. That works with Blindsight and Blindsense because blindsense lets still pinpoint you the creature. You only suffer the 50% miss chance if the target is invisible, which the mage isn't.

And don't get to focused on hearing. Hearing is only a small part of the blindsight/blindsense of a dragon. It can smell and feel air vibrations too and that are also only examples. There can still be more senses a dragon use for blindsight depending on the DM.

So Mirror Image doesn't affact dragons neither in 3.0 nor in 3.5, while things like blur and invisibility partially work against 3.5 blindsense.
Chromatic King
10-22-03, 06:50 PM If a dragon saw multiple spell casters he would use either:

1. Area spells

or

2. His breath weapon

All of a sudden sorceror with neat little trick is dead sorceror without neat little trick(or wizard, it doesn't really matter if their dead).:devil:
Stensler
10-22-03, 09:26 PM Yeah I know...

The thing with that is they went into the fight knowing it was a Red, and with all kinds of protection from fire spells. The Dragon already knew this. He knew that the fire would have no effect, having breathed on them in the first round without hurting them, and she was about to fly out of his reach. They were in a confined space, one the Huge dragon couldn't fly in, but the medium Human Sorcerer could. He wasn't so much trying to kill her right then and there as he was trying to prevent her from leaving the area so he could kill her without having to chase her all over the room while the fighter hit him (well missed mostly due to the dragons 32 AC and being shaken) with his greatsword. The strategy was to take her out of the fight in 1 round and not mess with the silly images for 3-4 rounds...

I don't know... I think I made the right choice, I just wanted to see what some other DMs opinion on the whole blindsight thing was. Thanks for all the responses btw.
Bopple
10-22-03, 09:32 PM Derren, IIRC, mirror images and real self occupy the same square.
Therefore blindsense cannot nullify mirror image imo.
Stensler
10-22-03, 10:04 PM It doesn't say that they are all in the same square. It specifically states in the 3.0 PHB 'These figmants separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figmant or you.'
Bopple
10-22-03, 10:18 PM Check the FAQ. It states so.
Stensler
10-22-03, 11:18 PM 1st
What FAQ? I checked a couple and didn't find anything about mirror image.

2nd
Since when does the FAQ override the text of the spell? Thats a direct quote from the 3.0 PHB. Forums be damned. The forums are a place for players not designers. And whats more the forum FAQs are created by players, they are in no way involved with the design of the game mechanics, and every single one of them states in the intro that they are mostly unofficial and only an interpretation.
PhaedrusXY
10-22-03, 11:46 PM Originally posted by Stensler
1st
What FAQ? I checked a couple and didn't find anything about mirror image.

2nd
Since when does the FAQ override the text of the spell? Thats a direct quote from the 3.0 PHB. Forums be damned. The forums are a place for players not designers. And whats more the forum FAQs are created by players, they are in no way involved with the design of the game mechanics, and every single one of them states in the intro that they are mostly unofficial and only an interpretation. He's not talking about a forum FAQ, at least I hope not. He's talking about the official FAQ's published by WotC and downloadable from the D&D webpage. And they are written by Skip Williams, aka The Sage, one of the author's of the 3.0 Core rulebooks.

Now as to whether what he claims is in there is or is not, I don't know. But the FAQs are in every way as "official" as anything is in this game.
L33t Angel
10-22-03, 11:46 PM Wrong FAQ, dog.

He's talking about the OFFICIAL WotC Core Rule Book Erratta, check it ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!
Stensler
10-23-03, 04:06 AM errata is different than FAQ
The Abominable Darkling
10-23-03, 07:31 AM It's in the 3.5 main FAQ (though it applies equally to 3.0). In any case, the sage doesn't actually say that each image occupies the caster's square; he says that it's easiest to treat things that way. He's certainly right on that point. The spell is a real headache to adjucate if you give each image its own square. (And it's also much less useful since it's often very easy to figure out which square contains the real caster.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stensler 10-22-03, 04:04 AM	Would a Dragon with Blindsight (or any creature with blindsight for that matter) Be able to pick out the real person in the shifting images? I am of the opinion that if the room was totally dark the dragon would be able to hit the real image. So why wouldn't it in normal light conditions? Reason I ask is because the Mature Adult Red Dragon was only being damaged by our Sorcerer who had 7 images and she backed herself into a corner where the dragon was slowly, round by round, widling down her images, just as she is about to fly away. He didn't want that. Then I remembered the dragons Blindsight and Snatch feat, bing mirror image this mage your suddenly held. Much to the anger of the group. Thoughts?
Bopple 10-22-03, 04:26 AM	Dragons have blindsense, not blindsight. Blindsense != Blindsight Blindsense means you don't need spot or listen check to notice the existence of the opponent or to decide the location of him. If you want to hit an invisible or displaced foe without penalty, to discern real one among mirror images, or to see normally while blinded, you need blindsight. Edit) BTW, if you are using 3.0, dragons have blindsight. Therefore virtually no illusion work against dragons in that case.(except for non-visual illusions and phantasms)
The Abominable Darkling 10-22-03, 04:55 AM	A creature with blindsight can "see" be non-visual means, but unless otherwise stated, it sees by normal means too. A 3.0 dragon can certainly see the mirror images and thus would be fooled by them. Nevertheless, if for some reason the dragon was deprived of its normal vision (perhaps because it closed its eyes), then the mirror image would have no effect.
Bopple 10-22-03, 05:21 AM	That's the main reason why I like the change of 3.5 dragon - blindsense. It's awkward/twitchy to let creatures with normal sight have blindsight ... especially when considering normal creatures would blink their eyes continually.
the_heart 10-22-03, 07:02 AM	why would a dragon need to close his eyes to use blindsight? surely it is an extra sense that the dragon is used to using in conjunction with it's other senses. poor analogy, but we don't block our ears to smell something... MO, it's a 6th sense that the dragon would be adept at filtering conflicting information from and judging which is accurate. and blindsight would defeat visual illusions...scary dragons
Mr.Waesel 10-22-03, 07:09 AM	Originally posted by Bopple Blindsense != Blindsight Heh. Do you use mathematica?
Boondoggle 10-22-03, 07:16 AM	People often close their eyes to concentrate on hearing better. Visual stimulus is what most creatures rely on as their main observation of the world. I would only let the dragon ignore the figments if it closed its eyes. For melee combat, this would obviously greatly reduce your miss chances from 8/9 (or so) to 1/2 (or 1/4 with blind-fight) However, closing ones eyes to avoid the effects of a mirror image also means one can't cast targeted spells at the foe. "You must be able to see or touch the target."
the_heart 10-22-03, 07:46 AM	although technically you could argue that blindsight fulfills that requirement....also if you are relying on blindsight don't you negate miss chances?!? hmm valid point re: hearing. depends on how fully integrated blindsight is amongst the senses, i guess. it's not that easy to imagine, it would be second nature to a dragon, but the thought of that much extra sensory input is kinda intimidating to me.
Stensler 10-22-03, 01:21 PM	Edit) BTW, if you are using 3.0, dragons have blindsight. Therefore virtually no illusion work against dragons in that case.(except for non-visual illusions and phantasms) I am using 3.0. sorry for not stating that. And as for the rest of the replies... It specifically states in the montrous manual that Blindsight is the ability to use your other senses to see. It says that each creature will have specifics on what senses it uses. Under the dragon entry it states 'A Dragon can asertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues)...' So in the case of mirror image all it would have to do is smell the ilusion and realize which one was the real person. At least thats how I ruled during the game. The Sorcerer was standing directly in front of the dragon. The dragon was about to unleash a barrage of mellee attacks on the sorcerer, when I realized that it could see through low level illusions like mirror image that have no olfactory component. They killed the bugger anyway about 11 rounds later. Thanks for the replies btw.
The Abominable Darkling 10-22-03, 01:30 PM	But why do you assume the dragon's brain would give greater weight to its sense of smell than to its vision? There are a number of experiments you can do on humans regarding this very subject. When the brain receives contradictory information from two or more of its senses, it tries to compensate. For humans, this usually means that it will create false sensations that agree with what it's seeing. How a dragon's brain works is naturally anybody's guess, but it's also irrelevant. If the designer's had intended blindsight to negate illusions, they would have said so. You're free to rule as you see fit, but be aware that you're making blindsight more powerful than was intended.
Stensler 10-22-03, 02:05 PM	Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling If the designer's had intended blindsight to negate illusions, they would have said so. ok heres the full text of the general Blindsight Special Quality from page 8 of the MM 3.0. Bindsight (Ex): Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, scent, acute hearing, or echo location, the creature manuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility and darkness are irellevent, though the creature still can't discern ethereal beings. The ability's range is specified in the creatures descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Now here is the description from the dragon descriptive text Page 62 of the MM 3.0. Blindsight (Ex): A Dragon can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues) with a range of 30 feet x the dragons age catogory. It says it can 'see' through Invisibility. I am assuming the way a dragon does this is by smelling and feeling a creature walking on the ground, who is using the Invisibility Glamour. I don't think it would have to close its eyes either, for a second the dragon would try to ascertain which image is the true image, with an 18 Int and ranks to spellcraft it would be a breeze to realize that in order to know where the offending sorcerer is. All it would have to do is smell her out, thus it would think to itself 'In this situation I cannot rely on my eyes, I must smell the witch out in order for her to not chain lightning me again.' But you are right, this, like the 3.0 rules, the Constitution of the United states, and the bill of rights is subject to interpretaion...
Boondoggle 10-22-03, 04:04 PM	I would still adjudicate it such that if the dragon closes his eyes, he would recieve no (since this is 3.0) miss chance, but would still be unable to target the foe with spells without mirror image coming into play. Of course, the dragon still should have closed his eyes, snatched the stupid mage and breathed on him a few times.
Derren S. 10-22-03, 05:03 PM	Come one people. By your logic a Silent Image is as good as a Major Image because noone can see, hear and feel the same time. If you see a lion you have to first close your ears to see if it is real, than you have to close your eyes to hear if the lion roars or not and then you have close your ears and eyes and stick your leg into its maw to feel if it bites and only then you get your Save against a Silent Image and you won't get a save when the lion roars without sound, than claws you and its claws pass right through you because you had your eyes open and couldn't hear or feel at that time so you can't trust your hearing and feeling. The dragon sees that there are 7 images of the mage and his hearing, scent, and the air vibrations tellt him which image is real and which are illusions. That works with Blindsight and Blindsense because blindsense lets still pinpoint you the creature. You only suffer the 50% miss chance if the target is invisible, which the mage isn't. And don't get to focused on hearing. Hearing is only a small part of the blindsight/blindsense of a dragon. It can smell and feel air vibrations too and that are also only examples. There can still be more senses a dragon use for blindsight depending on the DM. So Mirror Image doesn't affact dragons neither in 3.0 nor in 3.5, while things like blur and invisibility partially work against 3.5 blindsense.
Chromatic King 10-22-03, 06:50 PM	If a dragon saw multiple spell casters he would use either: 1. Area spells or 2. His breath weapon All of a sudden sorceror with neat little trick is dead sorceror without neat little trick(or wizard, it doesn't really matter if their dead).:devil:
Stensler 10-22-03, 09:26 PM	Yeah I know... The thing with that is they went into the fight knowing it was a Red, and with all kinds of protection from fire spells. The Dragon already knew this. He knew that the fire would have no effect, having breathed on them in the first round without hurting them, and she was about to fly out of his reach. They were in a confined space, one the Huge dragon couldn't fly in, but the medium Human Sorcerer could. He wasn't so much trying to kill her right then and there as he was trying to prevent her from leaving the area so he could kill her without having to chase her all over the room while the fighter hit him (well missed mostly due to the dragons 32 AC and being shaken) with his greatsword. The strategy was to take her out of the fight in 1 round and not mess with the silly images for 3-4 rounds... I don't know... I think I made the right choice, I just wanted to see what some other DMs opinion on the whole blindsight thing was. Thanks for all the responses btw.
Bopple 10-22-03, 09:32 PM	Derren, IIRC, mirror images and real self occupy the same square. Therefore blindsense cannot nullify mirror image imo.
Stensler 10-22-03, 10:04 PM	It doesn't say that they are all in the same square. It specifically states in the 3.0 PHB 'These figmants separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figmant or you.'
Bopple 10-22-03, 10:18 PM	Check the FAQ. It states so.
Stensler 10-22-03, 11:18 PM	1st What FAQ? I checked a couple and didn't find anything about mirror image. 2nd Since when does the FAQ override the text of the spell? Thats a direct quote from the 3.0 PHB. Forums be damned. The forums are a place for players not designers. And whats more the forum FAQs are created by players, they are in no way involved with the design of the game mechanics, and every single one of them states in the intro that they are mostly unofficial and only an interpretation.
PhaedrusXY 10-22-03, 11:46 PM	Originally posted by Stensler 1st What FAQ? I checked a couple and didn't find anything about mirror image. 2nd Since when does the FAQ override the text of the spell? Thats a direct quote from the 3.0 PHB. Forums be damned. The forums are a place for players not designers. And whats more the forum FAQs are created by players, they are in no way involved with the design of the game mechanics, and every single one of them states in the intro that they are mostly unofficial and only an interpretation. He's not talking about a forum FAQ, at least I hope not. He's talking about the official FAQ's published by WotC and downloadable from the D&D webpage. And they are written by Skip Williams, aka The Sage, one of the author's of the 3.0 Core rulebooks. Now as to whether what he claims is in there is or is not, I don't know. But the FAQs are in every way as "official" as anything is in this game.
L33t Angel 10-22-03, 11:46 PM	Wrong FAQ, dog. He's talking about the OFFICIAL WotC Core Rule Book Erratta, check it ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!
Stensler 10-23-03, 04:06 AM	errata is different than FAQ
The Abominable Darkling 10-23-03, 07:31 AM	It's in the 3.5 main FAQ (though it applies equally to 3.0). In any case, the sage doesn't actually say that each image occupies the caster's square; he says that it's easiest to treat things that way. He's certainly right on that point. The spell is a real headache to adjucate if you give each image its own square. (And it's also much less useful since it's often very easy to figure out which square contains the real caster.)