Blindsense doesn't work if the creature can't see? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blindsense doesn't work if the creature can't see? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ksbsnowowl
05-09-04, 01:48 AM Just found something I find just a wee bit contradictory. From the 3.5 SRD:Blindsense (Ex): Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.The whole point of blindsense is that the creature can see opponents without the need of sight. Yet, if the creature can't see the target ('see' means visually if there is no other descriptor, correct?), the blindsense is rather pointless, is it not?

I think I might have just realized the benefit it gives. Basically it allows you to target the opponent's square, but there is always a 50% miss chance.

If that's what it does, that's a stupid nerf from 3.0.
TheMoose
05-09-04, 02:01 AM I'm behind a wall, can you see me? You can sense creatures with blindsense, it would REALLY hurt to run/fly into a wall(the wall would probably make it difficult to be sensed as well). So, "see", at least as I read it, is refering to concealed creatures.
ksbsnowowl
05-09-04, 02:37 AM Alright, that's how I was hoping it should be interpreted.

So, basically, although they can pinpoint creatures within range, it doesn't work around corners. Anyone out of the line of 'sight' gains concealment (as they normally would were the dragon [or any other creature] using visual means.)
UZI
05-09-04, 08:52 AM Blindfight (the feat): let's you re-roll a miss chance and keep your DEX bonus against invisible attackers

Blindsense (the ability): let's you detect where an attacker is located. You still have the miss chance, and cannot target spells unless they are geometric effect or attack rolls. That is, you cannot cast hold person or detect thoughts on a creature you have blindsensed, but can try to hit them with a fireball (area effect), lightning bolt (line), or searing light (attack roll, with miss chance).

Blindsight: able to see without having to see. Blindness spell has no effect (though deafness may, depending on how the blindsight is implemented on the creature). Invisible creatures are not considered invisible, since visibility is not how these creatures perceive things.
ksbsnowowl
05-09-04, 10:47 AM Alright, just spent a few minutes looking over the 3.5 SRD. From what I can gather, WotC simply added blindsense as a new ability in 3.5, and used it to replace the 3.0 blindsight of most creatures that had it.

Destrachans and Darkmantles still have blindsight, but dragons and bats now have blindsense.

That's really stupid. So now bats suffer 50% miss chances despite their ecolocation. Given that they fly around, nab, and eat thousands of quickly moving insects in one night, that's just rediculous. They can pinpoint those insects to within a half a centimeter (ie- the size of their mouths), and you're telling me they're going to face a 50% miss chance versus something the size of a human? And I'm sorry, bats should not have low-light vision.
hiryuu
05-09-04, 11:50 AM Yes they should - most bats have excellent eyesight, especially fruit bats.
ksbsnowowl
05-09-04, 12:06 PM Originally posted by hiryuu
Yes they should - most bats have excellent eyesight, especially fruit bats. Alright, I'll conceed you that. I was thinking more along the lines of the insecivorous species, which are not as visually adept as the fruit bats.

In either case, bats sould have blindsight, not blindsense.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-09-04, 07:24 PM Incorrect. Bats' echolocation is EXTREMELY IMPRECISE. It allows them to find clouds of insects, large bugs, and trees. And that's about it. And it only gets a vague sense of everything but the tree. That's why you see them flying, back and forth, in circles, like morons. Trying to actually blindly catch an insect when it only KINDOF knows where it is.

Echolocation does not work very well in open air. Bats are remarkable, in that they make it work AT ALL, but it still doesn't work well.

To make echolocation REALLY work well, you need a thicker medium than air. Like, say, water. You want sonar geniuses? Dolphins.

Thus why our military uses radar above water and sonar below. Because sonar actually WORKS there.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-10-04, 05:05 PM Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
That's why you see them flying, back and forth, in circles, like morons.

They do that because they are chasing insects that are trying with all their might to evade the bat. The echolocation of bats is extremely precise. Sorry.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-14-04, 11:44 PM Sorry, you're wrong. The number of times I've seen them hit trees is absolutely ridiculous. Now there may be species that have perfected it, but it's far from all of them, and is probably only a couple. So simply say some bats get blindsense, some very few get blindsight, and some get nothing at all (Flying foxes, being that they're probably evolved from a completely different creature, are diurnal, and have no echolocation, but should maybe get strength and size bonuses. They're small creatures, at least).
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
05-14-04, 11:46 PM Further, I should elaborate: The bat may get a clear picture, but not enough of them, quickly enough, to navigate perfectly. They couldn't simulate "Blindsight-like-a-strobe-light" so they just gave them blindsense.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 05-09-04, 01:48 AM	Just found something I find just a wee bit contradictory. From the 3.5 SRD:Blindsense (Ex): Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.The whole point of blindsense is that the creature can see opponents without the need of sight. Yet, if the creature can't see the target ('see' means visually if there is no other descriptor, correct?), the blindsense is rather pointless, is it not? I think I might have just realized the benefit it gives. Basically it allows you to target the opponent's square, but there is always a 50% miss chance. If that's what it does, that's a stupid nerf from 3.0.
TheMoose 05-09-04, 02:01 AM	I'm behind a wall, can you see me? You can sense creatures with blindsense, it would REALLY hurt to run/fly into a wall(the wall would probably make it difficult to be sensed as well). So, "see", at least as I read it, is refering to concealed creatures.
ksbsnowowl 05-09-04, 02:37 AM	Alright, that's how I was hoping it should be interpreted. So, basically, although they can pinpoint creatures within range, it doesn't work around corners. Anyone out of the line of 'sight' gains concealment (as they normally would were the dragon [or any other creature] using visual means.)
UZI 05-09-04, 08:52 AM	Blindfight (the feat): let's you re-roll a miss chance and keep your DEX bonus against invisible attackers Blindsense (the ability): let's you detect where an attacker is located. You still have the miss chance, and cannot target spells unless they are geometric effect or attack rolls. That is, you cannot cast hold person or detect thoughts on a creature you have blindsensed, but can try to hit them with a fireball (area effect), lightning bolt (line), or searing light (attack roll, with miss chance). Blindsight: able to see without having to see. Blindness spell has no effect (though deafness may, depending on how the blindsight is implemented on the creature). Invisible creatures are not considered invisible, since visibility is not how these creatures perceive things.
ksbsnowowl 05-09-04, 10:47 AM	Alright, just spent a few minutes looking over the 3.5 SRD. From what I can gather, WotC simply added blindsense as a new ability in 3.5, and used it to replace the 3.0 blindsight of most creatures that had it. Destrachans and Darkmantles still have blindsight, but dragons and bats now have blindsense. That's really stupid. So now bats suffer 50% miss chances despite their ecolocation. Given that they fly around, nab, and eat thousands of quickly moving insects in one night, that's just rediculous. They can pinpoint those insects to within a half a centimeter (ie- the size of their mouths), and you're telling me they're going to face a 50% miss chance versus something the size of a human? And I'm sorry, bats should not have low-light vision.
hiryuu 05-09-04, 11:50 AM	Yes they should - most bats have excellent eyesight, especially fruit bats.
ksbsnowowl 05-09-04, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by hiryuu Yes they should - most bats have excellent eyesight, especially fruit bats. Alright, I'll conceed you that. I was thinking more along the lines of the insecivorous species, which are not as visually adept as the fruit bats. In either case, bats sould have blindsight, not blindsense.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-09-04, 07:24 PM	Incorrect. Bats' echolocation is EXTREMELY IMPRECISE. It allows them to find clouds of insects, large bugs, and trees. And that's about it. And it only gets a vague sense of everything but the tree. That's why you see them flying, back and forth, in circles, like morons. Trying to actually blindly catch an insect when it only KINDOF knows where it is. Echolocation does not work very well in open air. Bats are remarkable, in that they make it work AT ALL, but it still doesn't work well. To make echolocation REALLY work well, you need a thicker medium than air. Like, say, water. You want sonar geniuses? Dolphins. Thus why our military uses radar above water and sonar below. Because sonar actually WORKS there.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-10-04, 05:05 PM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru That's why you see them flying, back and forth, in circles, like morons. They do that because they are chasing insects that are trying with all their might to evade the bat. The echolocation of bats is extremely precise. Sorry.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-14-04, 11:44 PM	Sorry, you're wrong. The number of times I've seen them hit trees is absolutely ridiculous. Now there may be species that have perfected it, but it's far from all of them, and is probably only a couple. So simply say some bats get blindsense, some very few get blindsight, and some get nothing at all (Flying foxes, being that they're probably evolved from a completely different creature, are diurnal, and have no echolocation, but should maybe get strength and size bonuses. They're small creatures, at least).
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 05-14-04, 11:46 PM	Further, I should elaborate: The bat may get a clear picture, but not enough of them, quickly enough, to navigate perfectly. They couldn't simulate "Blindsight-like-a-strobe-light" so they just gave them blindsense.