blindsense/blindsight question [Archive] - Wizards Community

blindsense/blindsight question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
boozerker
10-14-05, 05:11 AM There seems no difference between blindsense and blindsight except that blindsense needs line of effect to work?

And the description on blindsense reads:

"Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. "

So what I don't understand is, if a creature with blindsense "sees" opponents by other means than sight (such as smell or hearing), then how can any opponent have concealment against it?

How can visibility still affect it's movement? What does that mean?

Please help, thanks.
Wayward Son
10-14-05, 09:05 AM Blindsense only gives you the location of the target in the same sense that scent or listening for an invisible foe gives you its location: you know which 5' square the target is in. You still don't know precisely where in that 5' square the target is, however, and so they still get the 50% miss chance for total concealment.

Blindsight, however, gives you a much clearer image of objects and their details, including their precise location and position within a square. If you've seen the Daredevil movie, think of it like when DD kicks on the sprinklers and can "see" the outline of Fisk by hearing the water hitting his body. You still can't tell colors and contrasts, so reading written text is out, but you get a very clear impression of the shape of your surroundings.

As for the movement, with blindsense you only get a general impression of objects and their locations, so you still have to pick your way through areas to keep from tripping or running into things, so your movement rate is reduced as if you could not see (or could only see as well as the light will allow). I believe the reductions are mentioned in the PH section on movement (if not, check the DMG or SRD).
boozerker
10-15-05, 11:55 PM Still a little confused.

Blindsense only gives you the location of the target in the same sense that scent or listening for an invisible foe gives you its location: you know which 5' square the target is in. You still don't know precisely where in that 5' square the target is, however, and so they still get the 50% miss chance for total concealment.

Okay, I get that part. Thanks. But some parts of the SRD definition are still confusing.

SRD:

"Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment."

Does that mean concealment from the creature not having line of effect to you, or some other form of concealment?

And if you're invisible, can't a creature with blindsense still smell (or hear) you?

SRD:

"The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature."

It just doesn't make sense. If a creature uses smell or hearing to locate you, how can't it detect you just because it doesn't have line of effect to you?

That means if you're right around the corner it can't smell or hear you?
Wayward Son
10-16-05, 09:01 PM Still a little confused.
No problem. Shoot.
Okay, I get that part. Thanks. But some parts of the SRD definition are still confusing.

SRD:

"Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment."

Does that mean concealment from the creature not having line of effect to you, or some other form of concealment?

And if you're invisible, can't a creature with blindsense still smell (or hear) you?
First, that section is just saying two things. A> If you can't see it, it has total concealment. B> Blindsense doesn't let you "see", it just gives you a general location. Therefore, even though you get a general location from blindsense, it is still concealed if you can't see it with another form of sight (normal sight, low-light, darkvision, whatever). This would be the situation of an invisible adventurer in a dragon's lair. The dragon can't see him, regardless of light sources, but the dragon's blindsense tells him generally where he is. The following flood of the dragon's breath weapon over that space tells the adventurer that such simple tricks are not the wisest course. ;)

Second, yes, of course, any creature can make a Listen (or even Spot) check to get the general location of an invisible creature. A creature with blindsense doesn't need to, though, since blindsense tells it that information without a check.
SRD:

"The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature."

It just doesn't make sense. If a creature uses smell or hearing to locate you, how can't it detect you just because it doesn't have line of effect to you?

That means if you're right around the corner it can't smell or hear you?Again, this is a benefit of the special sense, and a limitation of it as well. While the creature has a line of effect, they just know generally where any other creature or object is. Outside the line of effect, they may make a check to get an idea something is there, but their senses can't zero in on it.

Yes, that means that a dragon around the corner from you can't pinpoint your location, but it can make a normal Listen check to hear you moving or breathing, then step around the corner and know where you are. It means that hiding in shadows or standing in the open while invisible won't hide you from something with blindsense, but hiding behind a wall or other solid object will.
boozerker
10-17-05, 03:02 AM This would be the situation of an invisible adventurer in a dragon's lair. The dragon can't see him, regardless of light sources, but the dragon's blindsense tells him generally where he is.

I finally get it. My mistake had been thinking that blindsense creatures are totally blind or have no eyes.

(I wonder if I had posted this in the correct thread, or if there's a more appropriate place)

Well, thanks.
Wayward Son
10-17-05, 09:22 AM I finally get it. My mistake had been thinking that blindsense creatures are totally blind or have no eyes.

(I wonder if I had posted this in the correct thread, or if there's a more appropriate place)

Well, thanks.
You're welcome. I'd say this board was fine. What's a DM to Do would work, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boozerker 10-14-05, 05:11 AM	There seems no difference between blindsense and blindsight except that blindsense needs line of effect to work? And the description on blindsense reads: "Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. " So what I don't understand is, if a creature with blindsense "sees" opponents by other means than sight (such as smell or hearing), then how can any opponent have concealment against it? How can visibility still affect it's movement? What does that mean? Please help, thanks.
Wayward Son 10-14-05, 09:05 AM	Blindsense only gives you the location of the target in the same sense that scent or listening for an invisible foe gives you its location: you know which 5' square the target is in. You still don't know precisely where in that 5' square the target is, however, and so they still get the 50% miss chance for total concealment. Blindsight, however, gives you a much clearer image of objects and their details, including their precise location and position within a square. If you've seen the Daredevil movie, think of it like when DD kicks on the sprinklers and can "see" the outline of Fisk by hearing the water hitting his body. You still can't tell colors and contrasts, so reading written text is out, but you get a very clear impression of the shape of your surroundings. As for the movement, with blindsense you only get a general impression of objects and their locations, so you still have to pick your way through areas to keep from tripping or running into things, so your movement rate is reduced as if you could not see (or could only see as well as the light will allow). I believe the reductions are mentioned in the PH section on movement (if not, check the DMG or SRD).
boozerker 10-15-05, 11:55 PM	Still a little confused. Blindsense only gives you the location of the target in the same sense that scent or listening for an invisible foe gives you its location: you know which 5' square the target is in. You still don't know precisely where in that 5' square the target is, however, and so they still get the 50% miss chance for total concealment. Okay, I get that part. Thanks. But some parts of the SRD definition are still confusing. SRD: "Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment." Does that mean concealment from the creature not having line of effect to you, or some other form of concealment? And if you're invisible, can't a creature with blindsense still smell (or hear) you? SRD: "The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature." It just doesn't make sense. If a creature uses smell or hearing to locate you, how can't it detect you just because it doesn't have line of effect to you? That means if you're right around the corner it can't smell or hear you?
Wayward Son 10-16-05, 09:01 PM	Still a little confused. No problem. Shoot. Okay, I get that part. Thanks. But some parts of the SRD definition are still confusing. SRD: "Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment." Does that mean concealment from the creature not having line of effect to you, or some other form of concealment? And if you're invisible, can't a creature with blindsense still smell (or hear) you? First, that section is just saying two things. A> If you can't see it, it has total concealment. B> Blindsense doesn't let you "see", it just gives you a general location. Therefore, even though you get a general location from blindsense, it is still concealed if you can't see it with another form of sight (normal sight, low-light, darkvision, whatever). This would be the situation of an invisible adventurer in a dragon's lair. The dragon can't see him, regardless of light sources, but the dragon's blindsense tells him generally where he is. The following flood of the dragon's breath weapon over that space tells the adventurer that such simple tricks are not the wisest course. ;) Second, yes, of course, any creature can make a Listen (or even Spot) check to get the general location of an invisible creature. A creature with blindsense doesn't need to, though, since blindsense tells it that information without a check. SRD: "The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature." It just doesn't make sense. If a creature uses smell or hearing to locate you, how can't it detect you just because it doesn't have line of effect to you? That means if you're right around the corner it can't smell or hear you?Again, this is a benefit of the special sense, and a limitation of it as well. While the creature has a line of effect, they just know generally where any other creature or object is. Outside the line of effect, they may make a check to get an idea something is there, but their senses can't zero in on it. Yes, that means that a dragon around the corner from you can't pinpoint your location, but it can make a normal Listen check to hear you moving or breathing, then step around the corner and know where you are. It means that hiding in shadows or standing in the open while invisible won't hide you from something with blindsense, but hiding behind a wall or other solid object will.
boozerker 10-17-05, 03:02 AM	This would be the situation of an invisible adventurer in a dragon's lair. The dragon can't see him, regardless of light sources, but the dragon's blindsense tells him generally where he is. I finally get it. My mistake had been thinking that blindsense creatures are totally blind or have no eyes. (I wonder if I had posted this in the correct thread, or if there's a more appropriate place) Well, thanks.
Wayward Son 10-17-05, 09:22 AM	I finally get it. My mistake had been thinking that blindsense creatures are totally blind or have no eyes. (I wonder if I had posted this in the correct thread, or if there's a more appropriate place) Well, thanks. You're welcome. I'd say this board was fine. What's a DM to Do would work, too.