Blindsense/Blindsight [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blindsense/Blindsight [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Khan the Destroyer
10-05-05, 01:35 PM I wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but I chose this one since mostly monsters have either Blindsense or Blindsight. I have a few questions.

1. What does Blindsense allow you to do? It says you can discern creatures as long as you have line of effect to them. Wouldn't that mean that they couldn't be behind a rock for instance, or behind a wall? If so, then what is the point, as they would have to be within view anyways. Is it so that you can pinpoint the location of invisible creatures?

2. How is Blindsight different from Blindsense? Both are limited by Line of Effect, but it seems that you can close your eyes with Blindsight and still 'see' just about everything. If you can still 'see' with Blindsight even if your eyes are closed, then I am confused as to what Blindsense allows you to do.

3. Does Line of Effect mean what I think it means? Do you have it if the path between you and a creature is not obstructed by some physical object, and lose it if a rock or wall happens to be in the way?

Thanks in advance.
yonman
10-05-05, 04:20 PM Let me start by posting the descriptions from the SRD:

Line of Effect
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

Blindsense
Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Blindsight
Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures and must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Okay so here's the scoop:

1) Blindsense is a lesser ability that allows you to pinpoin the LOCATION of the creature if it is invisible but you still get the 50% miss chance for total concealment. Blindsight actually allows you to "see" the creature automatically so the creature does not get any concealment bonus to miss.

2) Both require line of effect, so any solid object that does not have greater than 1' of open space blocks both of these.

3) And both of these abilities can be independent of eyesight. Meaning, you have to read the description of the creature with the ability to determine if actual sight is required or if it is from another sense.
Insanity
10-05-05, 04:39 PM My understanding is as follows:

Blindsense allows the creature to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature, which means a dragon can determine which 5 ft. square an invisible creature is in. The creature still has full concealment, and thus the dragon would still have a 50% chance to hit it.

Blindsight allows a creature to perceive its environment as well as a sighted creature and would not suffer any penalties.

The advantage of Blindsense over normal sight is that the dragon doesn't have to guess where its opponent is to attack it. A human would have to guess and if correct, have a 50% chance to hit.

This assumes that the attack roll was successful.

Does this help?
Khan the Destroyer
10-06-05, 02:52 AM Thanks guys. The reason I ask is because I was considering the Mindsight feat with an NPC Spellweaver. The Mindsight feat gives a creature Blindsense out to a distance equal to its Telepathy. Spellweavers have a Telepathy range of 1000 miles. So I was curious about what exactly that meant.

From what I understand (and from the help I got from you guys) the Spellweaver would be aware of any creature present within 1000 miles and know what sqaure it was in, provided it wasn't blocked by a solid object. The Spellweaver would know where it was standing, but still couldn't see it (nessecarily) and would have any normal miss chances due to concealment if any. Right?

Seems pretty cool for a Spellweaver. Mindsight is limited to detecting creatures with an intelligence score of 1 or higher, but that isn't such a big limitation.
Darth_Azalin
10-06-05, 03:23 AM Read Page 310 of the PHB..

Basically line of effect is total distance from you too the maximum range the effect it has.. If the person is in the effect it happens to him.

Now how to "Beat" Concealment or Blindsense/sight. It states that its 50% concealment if your a ranged attacker you better hope the defender doesn't roll good (in this 50% case its 1-5 on a d10 and you miss)

But it doesn't work against melee attacks... So if your adjancent to the concealmenter you can attack normally... Hence if your a dragon and have a huge reach its basically moot since your going to wipe the floor with him.
yonman
10-06-05, 05:49 PM Read Page 310 of the PHB..
But it doesn't work against melee attacks... So if your adjancent to the concealmenter you can attack normally... Hence if your a dragon and have a huge reach its basically moot since your going to wipe the floor with him.

Sorry Darth, but this is incorrect. Don't get confused with Concealment and the 50% miss chance to being invisible. Although Invisibility is a type of concealment, the rules for invisibility are different. You ALWAYS get the 50% miss chance if an opponent attacks the same square you're in regardless if it is a ranged or a melee attack.

From SRD:
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.
Darth_Azalin
10-07-05, 05:38 AM Sorry Darth, but this is incorrect. Don't get confused with Concealment and the 50% miss chance to being invisible. Although Invisibility is a type of concealment, the rules for invisibility are different. You ALWAYS get the 50% miss chance if an opponent attacks the same square you're in regardless if it is a ranged or a melee attack.

From SRD:

50% chance to miss is for having Total Concealment.
Melee attack against an adjancent target, your target has concealment if his space is entierly within the effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to your (reach weapon), use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.

That is from p 152 of the PHB.

Then read the Ingoring Concealment and basically its like I said a Dragon with his Blindsense (including hearing and scent) is probably more dangerous then if he had blindsight.. Yes Blindsight is better only because it takes the sense is lesser and I believe that its only an opinion not fact.
MJ the Prophet
10-07-05, 07:16 AM So, Darth, you're saying that an invisible creature, if adjacent to you, can be attacked with no miss chance.
...your target has concealment if his space is entirely within the effect that grants concealment.
So are you arguing that an invisible creature is not entirely within his invisibility spell, and thus loses his miss chance against melee attacks? Because I'd say he's entirely invisible. He's not just hidden behind an invisibility screen that he kinda sticks out from. The rule you're quoting deals with mundane concealment, such as fog or tree branches. If you're right next to someone in fog, you can see them fine. If you're right next to someone behind a branch, he's not really concealed from you. If you're right next to someone who is invisible, he's still invisible.

Edit: Ok, technically fog was a bad example, since an adjacent creature would be entirely within the effect granting concealment, and by the rule would still actually have concealment. I guess it's really thick fog, you know the kind where you can't see your hand in front of your face?
yonman
10-07-05, 06:57 PM 50% chance to miss is for having Total Concealment.
Melee attack against an adjancent target, your target has concealment if his space is entierly within the effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to your (reach weapon), use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.

That is from p 152 of the PHB.

Then read the Ingoring Concealment and basically its like I said a Dragon with his Blindsense (including hearing and scent) is probably more dangerous then if he had blindsight.. Yes Blindsight is better only because it takes the sense is lesser and I believe that its only an opinion not fact.

Darth I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here, your sentences don't even make sense.

I think if I understand you correctly, but you are AGREEING that your opponent gets a 50% miss chance if they have Total Concealment and you are attacking in melee? Because you are correct if that is the case.
What I don't understand is your whole "Dragon" analogy. A Dragon's Blindsense ability is the same as any other creature's, if the dragon can't see invisible, then he still suffers a 50% miss chance even if he is in melee or attacking from his reach because his target has Total Concealment from invisibility.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khan the Destroyer 10-05-05, 01:35 PM	I wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but I chose this one since mostly monsters have either Blindsense or Blindsight. I have a few questions. 1. What does Blindsense allow you to do? It says you can discern creatures as long as you have line of effect to them. Wouldn't that mean that they couldn't be behind a rock for instance, or behind a wall? If so, then what is the point, as they would have to be within view anyways. Is it so that you can pinpoint the location of invisible creatures? 2. How is Blindsight different from Blindsense? Both are limited by Line of Effect, but it seems that you can close your eyes with Blindsight and still 'see' just about everything. If you can still 'see' with Blindsight even if your eyes are closed, then I am confused as to what Blindsense allows you to do. 3. Does Line of Effect mean what I think it means? Do you have it if the path between you and a creature is not obstructed by some physical object, and lose it if a rock or wall happens to be in the way? Thanks in advance.
yonman 10-05-05, 04:20 PM	Let me start by posting the descriptions from the SRD: Line of Effect A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. Blindsense Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. Blindsight Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures and must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description. Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing. Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. Okay so here's the scoop: 1) Blindsense is a lesser ability that allows you to pinpoin the LOCATION of the creature if it is invisible but you still get the 50% miss chance for total concealment. Blindsight actually allows you to "see" the creature automatically so the creature does not get any concealment bonus to miss. 2) Both require line of effect, so any solid object that does not have greater than 1' of open space blocks both of these. 3) And both of these abilities can be independent of eyesight. Meaning, you have to read the description of the creature with the ability to determine if actual sight is required or if it is from another sense.
Insanity 10-05-05, 04:39 PM	My understanding is as follows: Blindsense allows the creature to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature, which means a dragon can determine which 5 ft. square an invisible creature is in. The creature still has full concealment, and thus the dragon would still have a 50% chance to hit it. Blindsight allows a creature to perceive its environment as well as a sighted creature and would not suffer any penalties. The advantage of Blindsense over normal sight is that the dragon doesn't have to guess where its opponent is to attack it. A human would have to guess and if correct, have a 50% chance to hit. This assumes that the attack roll was successful. Does this help?
Khan the Destroyer 10-06-05, 02:52 AM	Thanks guys. The reason I ask is because I was considering the Mindsight feat with an NPC Spellweaver. The Mindsight feat gives a creature Blindsense out to a distance equal to its Telepathy. Spellweavers have a Telepathy range of 1000 miles. So I was curious about what exactly that meant. From what I understand (and from the help I got from you guys) the Spellweaver would be aware of any creature present within 1000 miles and know what sqaure it was in, provided it wasn't blocked by a solid object. The Spellweaver would know where it was standing, but still couldn't see it (nessecarily) and would have any normal miss chances due to concealment if any. Right? Seems pretty cool for a Spellweaver. Mindsight is limited to detecting creatures with an intelligence score of 1 or higher, but that isn't such a big limitation.
Darth_Azalin 10-06-05, 03:23 AM	Read Page 310 of the PHB.. Basically line of effect is total distance from you too the maximum range the effect it has.. If the person is in the effect it happens to him. Now how to "Beat" Concealment or Blindsense/sight. It states that its 50% concealment if your a ranged attacker you better hope the defender doesn't roll good (in this 50% case its 1-5 on a d10 and you miss) But it doesn't work against melee attacks... So if your adjancent to the concealmenter you can attack normally... Hence if your a dragon and have a huge reach its basically moot since your going to wipe the floor with him.
yonman 10-06-05, 05:49 PM	Read Page 310 of the PHB.. But it doesn't work against melee attacks... So if your adjancent to the concealmenter you can attack normally... Hence if your a dragon and have a huge reach its basically moot since your going to wipe the floor with him. Sorry Darth, but this is incorrect. Don't get confused with Concealment and the 50% miss chance to being invisible. Although Invisibility is a type of concealment, the rules for invisibility are different. You ALWAYS get the 50% miss chance if an opponent attacks the same square you're in regardless if it is a ranged or a melee attack. From SRD: If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.
Darth_Azalin 10-07-05, 05:38 AM	Sorry Darth, but this is incorrect. Don't get confused with Concealment and the 50% miss chance to being invisible. Although Invisibility is a type of concealment, the rules for invisibility are different. You ALWAYS get the 50% miss chance if an opponent attacks the same square you're in regardless if it is a ranged or a melee attack. From SRD: 50% chance to miss is for having Total Concealment. Melee attack against an adjancent target, your target has concealment if his space is entierly within the effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to your (reach weapon), use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks. That is from p 152 of the PHB. Then read the Ingoring Concealment and basically its like I said a Dragon with his Blindsense (including hearing and scent) is probably more dangerous then if he had blindsight.. Yes Blindsight is better only because it takes the sense is lesser and I believe that its only an opinion not fact.
MJ the Prophet 10-07-05, 07:16 AM	So, Darth, you're saying that an invisible creature, if adjacent to you, can be attacked with no miss chance. ...your target has concealment if his space is entirely within the effect that grants concealment. So are you arguing that an invisible creature is not entirely within his invisibility spell, and thus loses his miss chance against melee attacks? Because I'd say he's entirely invisible. He's not just hidden behind an invisibility screen that he kinda sticks out from. The rule you're quoting deals with mundane concealment, such as fog or tree branches. If you're right next to someone in fog, you can see them fine. If you're right next to someone behind a branch, he's not really concealed from you. If you're right next to someone who is invisible, he's still invisible. Edit: Ok, technically fog was a bad example, since an adjacent creature would be entirely within the effect granting concealment, and by the rule would still actually have concealment. I guess it's really thick fog, you know the kind where you can't see your hand in front of your face?
yonman 10-07-05, 06:57 PM	50% chance to miss is for having Total Concealment. Melee attack against an adjancent target, your target has concealment if his space is entierly within the effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to your (reach weapon), use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks. That is from p 152 of the PHB. Then read the Ingoring Concealment and basically its like I said a Dragon with his Blindsense (including hearing and scent) is probably more dangerous then if he had blindsight.. Yes Blindsight is better only because it takes the sense is lesser and I believe that its only an opinion not fact. Darth I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here, your sentences don't even make sense. I think if I understand you correctly, but you are AGREEING that your opponent gets a 50% miss chance if they have Total Concealment and you are attacking in melee? Because you are correct if that is the case. What I don't understand is your whole "Dragon" analogy. A Dragon's Blindsense ability is the same as any other creature's, if the dragon can't see invisible, then he still suffers a 50% miss chance even if he is in melee or attacking from his reach because his target has Total Concealment from invisibility.