Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 09-11-03, 03:21 PM	I've read through the entires countless times, but I cannot figure out the underlying difference between the two abilities. I need to know because I am working on my anthro races right now. One is an anthro/bat, and I want to make sure I understand the blindsense ability it will be granted to it's fullest.
Derren S. 09-11-03, 03:35 PM	Blindsense You don't have to make spot and listen checks to detect creatures. You can locate invisible creatures (5 ft. square). You loose your Dex Bonus to AC when attaacked by an invisible creature. When you attack an invisible creature, you suffer a 50% miss chance because of concealment. (Blind-Fight applies) Blindsight All of the above, except: You don't loose your Dex Bonus to AC when attacked by an invisible creature. When you attack an invisible creature, you have no miss chance. Special Bats blindsense depends on hearing, so a deaf bat can't use blindsense and someone in a zone of silence can't be detected by your blindsense. (The zone registers as a black spot/sphere on blindsense)
Big Dawg 09-11-03, 03:42 PM	In addition to above: • Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. • Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). • Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. • Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing. • Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. • Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.
Xychotic 09-11-03, 05:53 PM	Clarification requested: I was having trouble with this for a while myself, but then it dawned on me. A critter with blindsense pretty much always beats the Listen or Spot DC to notice an invisible creature by 20. He knows its location to a really good degree, but he still has trouble with it. Kinda like spotting electrons, you know where they were, but can only guess where they are. As for blindsight, its like an impeccable radar, if it's there, you know it. If not, then darn. You'd probably pick any relevant texture details, but nothing so fine as writing or useless like the number of hair fibers on the angry monster coming to get you in the dark.
Xeviat-DM 09-12-03, 12:39 AM	If a creature with blind sense always succeeds at spot checks, then why do they get a racial +4 to spot? And, to make things worse, this bonus goes away when they are in a zone of silence. Edit: Oh, this bonus would apply to creatures outside of the zone of silence. Then my question is this. In the real world (ooh, the "R" word again) bats can "see" perfectly fine in perfect dark. Why do they have blindsense if they can move while blinded and can locate food while blinded. Their sense is so keen that they can tell the difference between a jelly bean and a meal worm when you throw both into the air (the bat will always grab the meal worm in the experiment I saw).
nameless 09-12-03, 05:20 AM	The racial +4 to spot (and usually listen) is because their senses are finely tuned even outside the limited range of their blindsense. It makes sense that they are not pinpoint accurate out to 30 feet and then completely blind beyond that. The spot bonus makes the difference more gradual.
Derren S. 09-12-03, 06:55 AM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM Then my question is this. In the real world (ooh, the "R" word again) bats can "see" perfectly fine in perfect dark. Why do they have blindsense if they can move while blinded and can locate food while blinded. Their sense is so keen that they can tell the difference between a jelly bean and a meal worm when you throw both into the air (the bat will always grab the meal worm in the experiment I saw). I think this is because blindsight is a too strong ability for players and it is very easy to wildshape or polymorph into bats. Also you can get bat familiars.
Xychotic 09-12-03, 12:59 PM	Blindsight for bats, I do realize that bats are supposed to have impressive night activities. Justifying denying them blindsight because of polymorph and wild shape is a bunch of hooplah (recall, polymorph won't really give this ability and wild shape only gets you special 'attacks'; unless your DM's generous). I've also seen some interesting documentaries about bats, I liked finding that there was a moth that instinctively changed direction the instant it heard the bat's sonar. But, your question has been answered. Blindsense makes you super keen so that you always beat the Listen/Spot DC for a critter within the range, but it's still invis. Beyond that, the keen senses have gotta do something for you, so you get the +4 anyway.
Xeviat-DM 09-12-03, 03:52 PM	Alright everyone, thanks. I can start finishing up my anthro races. I'll post them on this board, since they are primarily monsters in my world (they kind of replace the gnoll), but players can play them if they like and are willing to take the LA.