Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Plothos 04-27-06, 12:15 PM	So, you're in a dungeon, and you hear something moving around in the next room. It's dark, but your party of 5 guys all have darkvision. You're 12th level. You open up the door, and boom, since you can all see it, DC15 fortitude save or die. (Yes, you have to make the save on your turn, but you have to avert your eyes on your turn too, so that doesn't help). Now at 12th level your fortitude saves are going to be pretty high, but 10-13 is hardly a guarantee against a DC15, and we're talking instant death here. Your cleric has no clue he'd want to cast a death ward (if he even had it prepared), and he doesn't even have access to resurrection yet. I mean, yeah the monster dies pretty fast (though with 10/cold iron DR and massive elemental defenses, not THAT fast), but just that first round alone there is a really non-trivial chance one of your 12th level PCs will die. Isn't this a little overpowered for a CR 8 creature? Or am I missing something?
Spike_Fightwicky 04-27-06, 12:27 PM	So, you're in a dungeon, and you hear something moving around in the next room. It's dark, but your party of 5 guys all have darkvision. You're 12th level. You open up the door, and boom, since you can all see it, DC15 fortitude save or die. (Yes, you have to make the save on your turn, but you have to avert your eyes on your turn too, so that doesn't help). Now at 12th level your fortitude saves are going to be pretty high, but 10-13 is hardly a guarantee against a DC15, and we're talking instant death here. Your cleric has no clue he'd want to cast a death ward (if he even had it prepared), and he doesn't even have access to resurrection yet. I mean, yeah the monster dies pretty fast (though with 10/cold iron DR and massive elemental defenses, not THAT fast), but just that first round alone there is a really non-trivial chance one of your 12th level PCs will die. Isn't this a little overpowered for a CR 8 creature? Or am I missing something? That's not the half of it. If you want to get really mean, customize his feats and give him ability focus (death gaze) to get the DC up to 17 and if the party isn't closing their eyes, have him take full defensive actions. Also, you can advance him by 4 extra hit dice, he only gets +1 CR, but his gaze goes up to DC 17 (19 with ability focus), he gets +1 AC from a bonus to his dex stat and he gets an extra 26 HP. The bodak is one of those creatures that I tend not to use. Team him up with an undead or blindsensing rogue, and you get free sneak attacks on anyone closing their eyes completely.
Lyinginbedmon 04-27-06, 01:58 PM	At level 12, your good saves start from +8 (12/2+2). This means you only need a 7 or higher to save, that's hardly high, only 35% of the d20. At 8th level, however, your good saves are at +6, so you need 9 or higher (45% of the d20) to survive. The DC is set pretty well for the CR if you ask me, even if it is a pretty early save-or-die
willy the water-elf 04-27-06, 02:10 PM	I don't think the issue has to do with saves, but with how powerful gaze attacks are in this edition. Players have to make a save at the beginning of their turn, and the Bodak gets to follow it up with an attack on its own turn. Gaze attacks, for all intensive purposes, are hasted and far more dangerous than almost any other effect out there, especially if you run across these creatures with no forewarning.
Korhal_IV 04-27-06, 02:40 PM	Your good saves are at a +6, at level 8, and every PC has as high a Con score as he can get, because Con is a very important stat. So you're looking at a low-end save of +8 and a high-end of +9 or +10 for the fighter or cleric types. A dwarf probably has a +13 already. DR/cold iron is tricky, admittedly. Problems with your scenario: usually a door is in a corridor, and depending on the angle of said corridor, only one or two PCs (the ones in front) will have to make that initial save before the party realizes what's going on. Also, your entire team has darkvision, which is a really bizarre and silly thing because it means everyone in the party is either a half-orc or a dwarf. And dwarves, as previously mentioned, don't have a very hard time with Fortitude saves. :P Additionally, maybe the party levels right after this fight and the cleric can Raise Dead? :P
Plothos 04-27-06, 03:36 PM	Excuse me, but I did say that most of my fortitude saves were high enough. But for a CR8 encounter for a level 12 party, you should not have even a 5% chance per PC of them just automatically dying in the first round. Admittedly that's an opinion, but come on. No whole party of 5 guys is going to have all 13s, but even if you did in just the first round you're talking (.95^5 = .77) a 23% chance of at least one PC failing and dying in just the first round. This is against an enemy that should be a cakewalk for you. I guess it's just the fact that this is a friggin gaze death attack. I don't see how this is supposed to enhance the game in any way at all. As for not having everybody see it in round 1, if it's standing by the door when the door is open, everybody in the other room has line of sight to that square, so they see it. I can see a Bodak as part of a detailed story arc, so that the PCs have some way of knowing they need to be aware of it. But as just some random encounter in a dungeon setting it's just beyond the pale. 23% chance of losing someone in round 1 of a fight where you should be dominating the enemy? And that no matter how good your saves are?! Come on!
Korhal_IV 04-27-06, 05:11 PM	Really? Because there's the cockatrice (CR 3), the basilisk (CR 5), the gorgon (CR 7), and the medusa (CR 8) with petrifying gazes. Those are all effectively save-or-die, since not many wizards prep Stone to Flesh when going into a dungeon unless they're forewarned about the existence of such threats (and ironically they're often the most likely to succumb to them and therefore be unable to cure themselves). All of those will result in a greater than 5% chance of an instant PC death. In fact, legally, you could have sixteen cockatrices assault the party, forcing 16 save-or-dies per round minimum, and still only give XP for a CR 11 if the PCs win. The bodak's death gaze is not all that scary by comparison, even if Raise Dead is more painful than Stone to Flesh due to the 1,000 gp cost and the missing level. More importantly, it is up to the DM to adjudicate whether a challenge is fair or not, and whether it is appropriately CR'd.
Plothos 04-27-06, 05:19 PM	Wow, so there are other ways in which save or die messes up the CR's of monster encounters? There are other ways in which save-or-die gaze attacks are lame? Well, I guess this one's not then. Was that the conclusion I should draw? Anyway, stone-to-flesh at least doesn't cost the poor guy his level. And any DM that sends 16 cockatrices against you should himself have to save or die, and the DC should be huge. But the point is that a single CR8 monster should be an appropriate encounter for a party of level 8, and it just doesn't seem like it is to me. If the DM is supposed to be adjudicating something here, then what's the point of the CR in the first place. Again, I can see a Bodak as a story-involved foe that one knows to prep for, but as a random encounter or some guy in a dungeon, it's just ridiculous. The fact that "legally" you could also have 16 cockatrices in a dungeon does nothing to change my opinion on this score. There are hordes of CR12 encounters I'd rather deal with than one unimproved Bodak, and that indicates to me a problem with the CR. Maybe I'm alone in this.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-27-06, 05:25 PM	I think your problem is that you are expecting higher CR foes to be defeated *without* preparation. Throwing random goblins at Lvl2 PCs...no problem. Throw a Tarrasque against unprepared Lvl20 players...more of an issue. Wish probably isn't prepared, too many ray spells, etc. You probably should increase the EL a bit to reflect the Bodak's tactical advantage.
Lyinginbedmon 04-27-06, 05:34 PM	Not to forget that CR equal to the average character level generally assumes the expenditure of moderate resources and at least 1 character severely injured or dead will be needed to defeat it. That is why it's harder for a party of 8th level against a CR 8 will have a lot of difficulty, but level 9s against CR 8 won't be quite as disadvantaged
Wyrd Bearer 04-27-06, 07:21 PM	Not to forget that CR equal to the average character level generally assumes the expenditure of moderate resources and at least 1 character severely injured or dead will be needed to defeat it. That is why it's harder for a party of 8th level against a CR 8 will have a lot of difficulty, but level 9s against CR 8 won't be quite as disadvantagedIndeed. Just to add to this and the post prior to it, the CR is taken into assumption that the party is prepared and properly equipped to handle such a threat. Seeing the bodak coming from a distance or the arcanist scrying the area before hand makes it a CR 8 encounter; effectively putting the bodak in the middle of the party with little warning suddenly makes it much more of a challenge and should be adjusted appropriately. I agree that having the bodak hiding out of sight against an unprepared party should up the CR to 9, perhaps even 10 if the party isn't a properly balanced one as well (four level 8 rogues against an undead creature that is normally CR 8 would be a much more difficult encounter, for example, since that effectively negates a significant class feature of the whole party).
RedMage 04-27-06, 10:10 PM	A bodak is more or less a CR whoever is left standing after its dead. You open a door. You see the bodak. Everyone save or die. Then again, an mid level wizard has access to Phantasmal Killer, Touch of Death, and the like, and have the advantage of versitility. Being able to kill with a single glace may be the biggest tool in the bodak's shed, but its also basicly it's only one.
Plothos 04-28-06, 12:50 PM	Not to forget that CR equal to the average character level generally assumes the expenditure of moderate resources and at least 1 character severely injured or dead will be needed to defeat it. That is why it's harder for a party of 8th level against a CR 8 will have a lot of difficulty, but level 9s against CR 8 won't be quite as disadvantaged1. An encounter with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to cost them approximately 20% of their resources in terms of spells, curatives, etc. There is no indication in any of the books I own that you should expect to lose a PC or even to be severely injured. 2. We're talking about an encounter that's CR8 for a party at level 12, and we're idealizing to give every single party member a fortitude save of +13. You're still going to lose a PC almost 1 time in 4 in round one!!!
Plothos 04-28-06, 01:00 PM	Indeed. Just to add to this and the post prior to it, the CR is taken into assumption that the party is prepared and properly equipped to handle such a threat. Seeing the bodak coming from a distance or the arcanist scrying the area before hand makes it a CR 8 encounter; effectively putting the bodak in the middle of the party with little warning suddenly makes it much more of a challenge and should be adjusted appropriately. Fair enough, but this is what I was talking about when I said it'd be okay as a story-related encounter, so that the PCs could prepare. I realize that would make the encounter substantially easier. My question is, where in the RAW does it say this about CR (that it factors in the assumption that the PCs are able to prepare themselves)? That's not a rhetorical or snide question. I have never seen this, but you sound confident enough to make me think I missed it. I agree that a DM should not just throw together a random dungeon for high-level PCs without taking into account how prepared they're going to be for whatever they find, but still, the CR should be somewhat of a guide, surely. All I'm saying is that this CR8 monster is vastly harder than most of the CR10s. Granted, he'd be easier if the PCs knew what to expect, but does that happen ALWAYS? Is it supposed to? If not, then sometimes the PCs won't be perfectly prepared. Then, even bumping the CR8 bodak up 4 (!) CRs for his "tactical advantage" is not enough, because this party will have a harder time against him than most CR12 encounters (where by harder I mean substantially more chance of losing a PC). If they luck out and don't die, they won't take much damage, but lost HP come back real easy. I agree that having the bodak hiding out of sight against an unprepared party should up the CR to 9, perhaps even 10 if the party isn't a properly balanced one as well (four level 8 rogues against an undead creature that is normally CR 8 would be a much more difficult encounter, for example, since that effectively negates a significant class feature of the whole party).I'm not sure the party's construction is supposed to be factored into the equation. For the same reason a party with a cleric doesn't get less XP when they fight undead, a party shouldn't get more because they happen to be ill-suited to an encounter. CR should reflect tactical advantage, certainly, but party make-up no. If they chose to be 4 rogues, they garner the benefits and suffer the hardships resulting from that decision. But if the encounter is hard for just about any party from level 8-15 if they're unprepared (I believe you always fail your save on a 1, yes?), then what's the CR?
d_nychus 04-28-06, 01:29 PM	1. An encounter with a CR equal to the party level is supposed to cost them approximately 20% of their resources in terms of spells, curatives, etc. There is no indication in any of the books I own that you should expect to lose a PC or even to be severely injured. Life is a resource. If a character dies, it will cost the party 10,910 gold, or 12,275 in scroll form. Is that equivalent to 20% of a party's resources? I think it's a little too much at 8th level, but that's debateable. However, since there are a number of effects and abilities that can avoid this effect, and the bodak really has nothing else going got it, I really don't feel this is an issue. I think the bodak is kind of an annoying encounter to balance, because it either hurts a lot, or it doesn't hurt at all. Kind of like the piercers of 1e and 2e. They were nasty if they hit you, but if they didn't hit you, they were free xp. 2. We're talking about an encounter that's CR8 for a party at level 12, and we're idealizing to give every single party member a fortitude save of +13. You're still going to lose a PC almost 1 time in 4 in round one!!! Against a 12th level party, I seriously doubt the bodak will last longer than one round. Against an 8th level party, I seriously doubt the bodak will last longer than 2 rounds. Honestly, I can see an 8th level fighter wiping the floor with this guy alone in maybe 3 or 4 rounds, and he is most likely to make the saves. ... My question is, where in the RAW does it say this about CR? ... Wyrd Bearer is a little wrong, actually. The actual CR does not change, but the XP gained from an encounter does change. It's on page 39 of ther DMG, under the header Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels. The reason the CR doesn't change is because the treasure table is based off the CR. The idea is that you learn more from the encounter, but you shouldn't gain more treasure because this one monster happened to fight a little bit smarter or luckier than others of its kin. Honestly, if I ran a 8th level party against a bodak, I would not be certain what to expect. In an average 'kick in the door' encounter, I would expect the fighter and cleric to go in and nail it, with the wizard using indirect fire and the rogue to blindfold himself quickly and take pot shots (simply because the rogue is truly useless this fight). Of course, this is barring a PC dying the first round or not. I personally think it's unlikely for a PC death (especially in a campaign like Eberron with action points, which is all I ever play any more), but bad rolls do happen, and sometimes players can't pull out something to save them. I would award normal XP. Now, if bodak ambushes the PCs in a way where all are continually subjected to his gaze attack each round, and he gets a surprise round to boot, I would definately raise the difficulty of this encounter, and expect a higher likelihood of PC death. I would award maybe upto 50% more XP from this one fight, and maybe 100% more if the fight somehow really screwed with the PCs (like bodak uses his gaze from the other side of the chasm the PCs are forced to very slowly climb). Overall, I think the bodak is all right for it's CR, though any creature with a save or die before raise dead is regularly available always is a bit wonky, and the situation easily modifies the difficulty of the fight.
bitnine 04-28-06, 02:07 PM	Overall, I think the bodak is all right for it's CR, though any creature with a save or die before raise dead is regularly available always is a bit wonky, and the situation easily modifies the difficulty of the fight.Eh, what's raise dead really going to do against a death effect anyways?
d_nychus 04-28-06, 02:25 PM	Eh, what's raise dead really going to do against a death effect anyways? Well, against a bodak's effect, nothing. But I meant in general save-or-die effects, and not all of them are actual death effects.
Mitton 04-28-06, 02:32 PM	A party at 12th level has access to more than enough divination magic and skills to be able to properly dertermine most of what they are going to be fighting in a dungeon. Even if they don't learn that there is a bodak in the dungeon, they are most likely going to learn that there is an undead in there, and probably know that they have some sort of death attack. Claravoaince is a 3rd level wizard spell and used properly can make this gaze attack virtually worthless. I must agree if you just teleport a bodak in the middle of the party the challenge does increase substantially. Also when you advance a bodak with feats and the such that increase its save DC you might want to increase its CR by 1 for every 1 or 2 increases in DC. Remeber CR is not just based on HD it is a composite of the total creatures power.
Ralp 04-28-06, 02:34 PM	for all intensive purposes:nonono: (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html)
d_nychus 04-28-06, 03:15 PM	Yeah, Ralp, I hate that too. It is not "for all intensive purposes." It is "for all intents and purposes." (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html)
malignor 04-28-06, 03:46 PM	A party at 12th level has access to more than enough divination magic and skills to be able to properly dertermine most of what they are going to be fighting in a dungeon. Even if they don't learn that there is a bodak in the dungeon, they are most likely going to learn that there is an undead in there, and probably know that they have some sort of death attack. Claravoaince is a 3rd level wizard spell and used properly can make this gaze attack virtually worthless.I disagree. The only way this tactic would definitely work is if the spellcasters went divination crazy, making them worthless in combat, or leave the party sitting around for a few days. Bodaks are undead who hate light, so they would tend to be in dark places, where alot of divination (prying eyes) is useless. Actually, most undead are found in dark places. Clairvoyance is only good for 10' radius in darkness, and can't move.
Plothos 04-28-06, 05:33 PM	Life is a resource. If a character dies, it will cost the party 10,910 gold, or 12,275 in scroll form. Is that equivalent to 20% of a party's resources? Wait, are we talking 20% of their wealth or 20% of things like prepared spells, HP, and available potions and the like. If you lost 20% of your total wealth every time you encountered something with a CR equal to your level, you'd have a really hard time getting anywhere. Unless your DM just wants death to be commonplace, doesn't mind the fact that your levels won't be increasing very fast, and is willing to pile treasure on you so you can pay for all these resurrections, I don't think this is supposed to be how it works. Against a 12th level party, I seriously doubt the bodak will last longer than one round. Honestly, I can see an 8th level fighter wiping the floor with this guy alone in maybe 3 or 4 rounds, and he is most likely to make the saves.If the only guy who can even get next to it in the first round doesn't have a cold iron weapon, it probably will survive more than 1 round even against a 12th level party. Will it survive a long time? Of course not, but even one round, as I've said, is at least a 23% chance of losing somebody, if they were surprised in the right way. That's pretty brutal. Even upping the XP reward so that it's effectively a CR 10 encounter doesn't seem right. But now I'm repeating myself. Sorry. Wyrd Bearer is a little wrong, actually. The actual CR does not change, but the XP gained from an encounter does change. It's on page 39 of ther DMG, under the header Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels. The reason the CR doesn't change is because the treasure table is based off the CR. The idea is that you learn more from the encounter, but you shouldn't gain more treasure because this one monster happened to fight a little bit smarter or luckier than others of its kin.Yes, I know the CR doesn't change, and I know what it says on p. 39. The point I was addressing was the claim that the CRs in the MM presume the party will be fully aware and prepared for what they're fighting. I don't see anything like that anywhere in the DMG. The closest I can find is on p. 49, where it says "encounters with single monsters can be very "swingy". If the party takes the time to use the Gather Information skill and divination spells, they may begin the encounter immune to the monster's most powerful weapons. If the party wins initiative, they can gang up on the monster and severely weaken it before it can act." But this is talking about the fact that encounters can vary widely. It doesn't make any mention of CR. It's making the obvious point that we all agree with that IF you can prepare, it will be easier for you. But if you're tromping through a huge 1,000 room dungeon, do you really divine what's on the other side of every single door? You can, I suppose, but how much fun is a game like that? Anyway, nothing in the DMG supports the claim that CR presupposes awareness of what you'll fight and the ability to be properly buffed against it before the fight ever starts. To me, that's a huge tactical advantage on your part, and if anything should reduce the XP. And again, there are plenty of CR8 monsters for whom this sort of divination and preparation will do nothing, and who would be far harder than a Bodak that was prepared for, so if preparation is factored in, then the CRs are off in the other direction instead, IMO. *shrug*
Lyinginbedmon 04-28-06, 05:39 PM	Wait, are we talking 20% of their wealth or 20% of things like prepared spells, HP, and available potions and the like. If you lost 20% of your total wealth every time you encountered something with a CR equal to your level, you'd have a really hard time getting anywhere. Unless your DM just wants death to be commonplace, doesn't mind the fact that your levels won't be increasing very fast, and is willing to pile treasure on you so you can pay for all these resurrections, I don't think this is supposed to be how it works. It's 20% of resources in general, be that the money you spent on scrolls, prepared spells, or HP, or anything the party has with a limitation of some sort (Including party members...)
Mr.Black 04-28-06, 05:45 PM	I've seen bodaks used many times as a player and at least a dozen times in Living Greyhawk. I've never seen a character die from their gaze attack, ever. As long as there is someone at the front with a decent fort save, who closes his eyes on the first round, there is no chance for the bodak to kill anyone. It really doesn't have any ability other than the gaze which is easily avoided by simply closing your eyes.
Plothos 04-28-06, 05:50 PM	It's 20% of resources in general, be that the money you spent on scrolls, prepared spells, or HP, or anything the party has with a limitation of some sort (Including party members...)I'm with you up until you reach the "(Including party members...)" part. An encounter with an Encounter Level (EL) equal to the PC's level is one that should expend about 20% of their resources - hit points, spells, magic item uses, and so on. This means, on average, that after about four encounters of the party's level the PCs need to rest, heal, and regain spells.As I read this, first of all, even including scrolls into the mix is debateable. You should expect to have to use scrolls and wands periodically, even frequently, but if you've got 6 wands and 12 scrolls, you shouldn't expect to have to use 4 scrolls and 6*50/5=60 charges from your wands. The bit about magic item uses, as I read it, refers more to items you can use 1/day or 3/day, and so forth. To go on to include party members in this list is totally out of bounds. 20% of hit points is slight to moderate wounding of the party as a whole, not a very strong likelihood of losing at least one player. Man, am I glad you guys aren't my DM.
Plothos 04-28-06, 05:54 PM	I've seen bodaks used many times as a player and at least a dozen times in Living Greyhawk. I've never seen a character die from their gaze attack, ever. As long as there is someone at the front with a decent fort save, who closes his eyes on the first round, there is no chance for the bodak to kill anyone. It really doesn't have any ability other than the gaze which is easily avoided by simply closing your eyes.No chance??!!?!?!?! What game are you playing? Anybody that can see the damn thing has to save if they're in range. Okay, you've never seen it happen. You got lucky, or your handling the gaze attack incorrectly. A party of 5 opens the door and sees a Bodak = 23% chance of losing somebody on the first round, unless the guys going first make their saves and manage to kill it before the others have to save. With all it's immunities, that isn't all that likely for a party of level 8.
dok 04-28-06, 08:38 PM	Okay, you've never seen it happen. You got lucky, or your handling the gaze attack incorrectly. A party of 5 opens the door and sees a Bodak = 23% chance of losing somebody on the first round, unless the guys going first make their saves and manage to kill it before the others have to save. I don't think it's luck, or a case of not knowing the rules. If this is how every Bodak encounter you've seen has occurred, then the players involved are selfish morons. You started the encounter with "You open a door and see a bodac". All it takes to survive the encounter is for one person (other than the last one in the initiative order) to make the save, and take a move-action to close the door again; the truly heroic do so with themselves on the other side of the door to prevent it from being re-opened by the bodak. Or for one PC to cast darkness. Or obscuring mist. Or just bull-rush another PC that hasn't acted until they're out of range. (Or try to bull rush the bodac back, but he'll resist...) There are a lot of actions that one PC can take that will protect the entire party from a gaze attack. Your presumption that every PC will have to make the save in the first round of combat is unfounded; when facing an opponent with a continual death-effect, it's absurd to think that each PC would only protect themselves and do nothing to help anyone else. If a party of 5 PCs were all standing in a corridor, (let's say its 10 ft. wide, so they're at most 15 ft. from the door) with a bodac directly on the other side of a door, and none of the PCs tried to close the door/cast a spell to reduce visibility/push an ally or the Bodac away/stood to block the line of sight of those behind them, but instead each PC took actions that either only benefited themselves or tried to kill the bodac, then that party deservies a few fatalities. That has very little to do with the monster, and more to do with a failure of tactics and teamwork.
kinem 04-28-06, 09:19 PM	Some monsters are hard to define a CR for. This is not a problem with those monsters. It is a problem with those who expect too much from the DM's crutch that listing CR gives.
d_nychus 04-28-06, 09:21 PM	Wait, are we talking 20% of their wealth or 20% of things like prepared spells, HP, and available potions and the like. If you lost 20% of your total wealth every time you encountered something with a CR equal to your level, you'd have a really hard time getting anywhere. Unless your DM just wants death to be commonplace, doesn't mind the fact that your levels won't be increasing very fast, and is willing to pile treasure on you so you can pay for all these resurrections, I don't think this is supposed to be how it works. Actually, D&D does suppose that death is fairly common, or else resurrection and other life returning spells would be harder to use. As it stands, all it costs is a little time, a spell slot, and some money. All of this is easily attainable, once you are of a certain level, and the bodak is in the range when you are approaching that certain level. An 8th level party should have around 108,000 gold in assets. 12,275 is well under 20% of that (closer to 9%), and when you factor in the spell loss and small, small amount of hp lost, I bet it would come out to around 20% of all potential resources. And I honestly don't see the bodak as killing someone every time it is encountered. The save is getting into the automatic for those with good Fort saves, and average to easy for those with poor Fort saves. Frankly, I more see the bodak as easy xp for an 8th level party, provided it's not somehow dropped in the middle of a party without any way to avoid the gaze. If the only guy who can even get next to it in the first round doesn't have a cold iron weapon, it probably will survive more than 1 round even against a 12th level party. Will it survive a long time? Of course not, but even one round, as I've said, is at least a 23% chance of losing somebody, if they were surprised in the right way. That's pretty brutal. Even upping the XP reward so that it's effectively a CR 10 encounter doesn't seem right. But now I'm repeating myself. Sorry. Actually, if the 12th level fighter can get off a full attack at that level, I am pretty sure the fighter alone can potentially drop it in one round, with or without the cold iron weapon. Probably 2d6+10+10 points for Power Attack and some other damage perks, and the fighter can easily push out the 88 points of damage to kill it (considering the 10 points off per hit for the DR). Even with the penalty for PA, I'm pretty sure the fighter will have such a high attack as to be able to hit every time. AC 20 is not all that great at 8th level, and it's damned weak at 12th. I'm not really sure where the 23% chance of losing a party member comes from. As I said, I can see this creature making a TPK for several levels...but that's normal for most encounters, anyways. Even a kobold can get a critical hit and kill off a wizard at 1st level. Death happens in D&D. Yes, I know the CR doesn't change, and I know what it says on p. 39. The point I was addressing was the claim that the CRs in the MM presume the party will be fully aware and prepared for what they're fighting. I don't see anything like that anywhere in the DMG. The closest I can find is on p. 49, where it says "encounters with single monsters can be very "swingy". If the party takes the time to use the Gather Information skill and divination spells, they may begin the encounter immune to the monster's most powerful weapons. If the party wins initiative, they can gang up on the monster and severely weaken it before it can act." But this is talking about the fact that encounters can vary widely. It doesn't make any mention of CR. It's making the obvious point that we all agree with that IF you can prepare, it will be easier for you. But if you're tromping through a huge 1,000 room dungeon, do you really divine what's on the other side of every single door? You can, I suppose, but how much fun is a game like that? Anyway, nothing in the DMG supports the claim that CR presupposes awareness of what you'll fight and the ability to be properly buffed against it before the fight ever starts. To me, that's a huge tactical advantage on your part, and if anything should reduce the XP. And again, there are plenty of CR8 monsters for whom this sort of divination and preparation will do nothing, and who would be far harder than a Bodak that was prepared for, so if preparation is factored in, then the CRs are off in the other direction instead, IMO. *shrug* I never mentioned anything about needing to know about the bodak beforehand. If you open a door and see a bodak, that's a fair fight as far as I am concerned. Foreknowledge is an advantage, like you said, and should not be required. I have made no claim that knowing about the bodak beforehand is required. In fact, I feel just the opposite. As a random encounter, party members have a number of options to avoid the gaze effect once the fight has already started. Averting one's eyes is a good way to start if you have a low Fort save. Getting away from the gaze of the creature and using indirect attacks or buffs is a good idea, too. Frankly, only the rogue really suffers in a fight against the bodak because he is vulnerable, and there is not a lot he can do aside from get away. All other classes either are not nearly as vulnerable, or have other options that can be done while avoiding the gaze, or both. Hell, even a cleric can turn it pretty reliably by 8th level, basically eliminating the threat in one blow. In a normal dungeon, a bodak is a threat, but one that can be dealt with in most situations as easily as other creatures as its CR.
fawr 04-28-06, 10:17 PM	I play that at the start of a character's go they can decide where they are looking (shut eyes/looking at its shadow/looking at it) and then they live with that for the rest of the round. So the whole party can just shut their eyes and no-one needs a save, but doing that makes the rest of the encounter harder... In exceptional circumstances I would say the characters needed to save (a bodak teleports in ) I find that still makes creatures with gaze attacks hard to survive, but they aren't too overpowering (Similar arguments work with Umber Hulks who's confusion gaze attack managed to get my parties mages killed by their own allies twice in the same dungeon). About the resouces you lose I think that one of the problems with the bodak is that either someone will die or the party will take almost no damage. There isn't really a middle ground where the party has used up 20% of its spells and HP.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-28-06, 10:35 PM	Everyone that is saying that "20% of your resources" means your total party wealth really needs to wake up. A day of adventuring is supposed to be 4 balanced encounters, meaning by the end, you are 80% spent. That is NOT total gp, party members standing, or anything permanent (aside from wands and potions, which are designed to be consumed). It is HP, spell slots, limited-use abilities, etc. A lvl4 monk is expected to use a Stunning Fist once a battle a day, not die every 4 days. If you want to justify the Bodak's CR, actually make some sense first.