Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flintlockhandmedown 06-12-07, 12:33 AM	BONECLAW Large Undead Hit Dice: 10d12+40 (105 hp) Initiative: +8 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14 Attack: Piercing claw +7 melee (2d6+7)* Full Attack: 2 piercing claws +7 melee (2d6+7)* Space/Reach: 10 ft./20 ft. Special Attacks: Reaching claws Special Qualities: +2 turn resistance, damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits, unholy toughness Saves: Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +9 Abilities: Str 21, Dex 18, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 19 Skills: Hide +13, Intimidate +17, Listen +15, Move Silently +17, Search +15, Spot +15 Feats: Combat Ref lexes, Im proved Initiative, Im proved Natural Attack (claw), Power Attack Environment: Any Organization: Solitary, skewer (2–4), or marrow (6–11) Challenge Rating: 5 Treasure: None Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: 11–22 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — *Includes adjustments for Power Attack feat. This large skeletal humanoid’s clawlike fingers are at least two feet long. Worse, the slender, knife-sharp claws contract and extend in length from moment to moment, sometimes instantly reaching a length of 10 or more feet, before slowly contracting. Boneclaws are bloodthirsty undead that enjoy using their extendable claws to bring death to the living. The lore of the dead does not reveal from what dark necromancer’s laboratory or fell nether plane boneclaws entered the world. Perhaps they merely “evolved” from lesser forms. The boneclaw is an intelligent skeletal undead that possesses exceptional control over the length of its claws. At will, a boneclaw can extend one or two of its finger-claws out to a distance of 20 feet, neatly skewering fl eshy creatures that stand in the way. A boneclaw stands about 8 feet tall and weighs about 300 pounds. Boneclaws speak Common and Abyssal. COMBAT A boneclaw likes to get the drop on its enemies, especially when its foes are still at range, surprising them with an attack of opportunity by extending its claws as its enemies close to melee range. With its Combat Reflexes, this can occur often within the same fight. A boneclaw normally attacks using its Power Attack feat, taking a –2 penalty on its attack rolls and gaining a +2bonus on damage rolls. Reaching Claws (Ex): A bone claw can make melee attacks with its bone claws, instantly extending them as part of an attack to a distance of up to 20 feet (thereby allowing the boneclaw to threaten more squares than even its Large size would otherwise indicate). Unholy Toughness (Ex): A boneclaw gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier × its Hit Dice. ^From MM3 Ok, is it just me or is this way too strong to be CR 5? Comparing this to a troll or dire lion or green hag or other Core CR 5 monster, it is better by volumes. With 2 attacks on its turn and up to 4 attacks of oppourtunity it can deal up to 12d6+42 damage a round. That's a hell of a lot for CR 5. Now remember, a party of 4 level 5s should be able to take on four of these before needing to rest. Ok the level 5 fighter with 22 AC(tank with full plate, hvy. shield and dwarven waraxe) and 40 hp(+2 Con) wins initiative and charges this thing. He then get attack of opportunity'd three times. Chances are one of those hit. That's an average of 14 damage, over a third his hp. Once he gets to it, he probably hits the 16 AC and deals 1d10+5 damage for an average of 10. Except he only deals 5 damage because of a Boneclaw's DR. So now the creature only has 100 hp. Whoopee. So say it's now the rogue's turn. No sneak attack damage, can only do 1d8+2damage, if he hits. Might not even get past the DR. Cleric can't turn it, even on a really lucky roll can't match the HD+its turn resistance. One thing the cleric can do is cast healing spells on it as well as he's more likely to use a bludgeoning weapon that can bypass its DR. Sorceror can actually do some damage with magic missile and flame strikes. Wizard could even get off a fireball or two. Even then, this thing is plenty smart and can get within striking distance of a spellcaster pretty easy. I could go on, but if a group of 4 level 5's can't or can only just barely beat this thing, its CR is too low. I'd say 7 is much better. To be 5 you'd have to drop unholy toughness as well as make the claws only 1d6. I think that'd be a much fairer fight. Thoughts?
Salla 06-12-07, 12:53 AM	^Now remember, a party of 4 level 5s should be able to take on four of these before needing to rest. Ok the level 5 fighter with 22 AC(tank with full plate, hvy. shield and dwarven waraxe) and 40 hp(+2 Con) wins initiative and charges this thing. He then get attack of opportunity'd three times. No, he gets AoO'd once. You only provoke one AoO (per opponent) for moving out of a threatened space, no matter how many you move through. So if you move six squares in a near-circle around one of these, he still only gets 1 AoO for that. Chances are one of those hit. That's an average of 14 damage, over a third his hp. Once he gets to it, he probably hits the 16 AC and deals 1d10+5 damage for an average of 10. Except he only deals 5 damage because of a Boneclaw's DR. So now the creature only has 100 hp. Whoopee. So say it's now the rogue's turn. No sneak attack damage, can only do 1d8+2damage, if he hits. Might not even get past the DR. It's true, rogues tend to suck against undead. However, if that fighter has a brain, he's wielding a greatsword and using Power Attack. The boneclaw's AC is PATHETIC. Let's see ... Power Attack -5 for +10, 16 STR, Weapon Specialization, average damage 7+10+5=22, -5 DR for 17. That discounts the very HIGH likelihood of him having a magic weapon or a buff on him. The rogue can also still flank, giving the fighter a +2 to hit, and use Aid Another for a total of +4 to hit for the fighter, helping him get the most use of that Power Attack. And with that pathetic attack bonus, the Boneclaw will probably miss the fighter. At 5th level, Full Plate is an easy get, taking him up to 18. 19 for a DEX +1, At least +1 armor, AC 20, this thing needs a 13 or better to hit ... well under 50% chance. If he's recieved any form of AC buff from the cleric, it just becomes a bigger joke. Heck, the fighter might be better off fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, because it'll never hit him if he does, except on a 20. Cleric can't turn it, even on a really lucky roll can't match the HD+its turn resistance. One thing the cleric can do is cast healing spells on it as well as he's more likely to use a bludgeoning weapon that can bypass its DR. 5th level, 3rd level spells, SEARING LIGHT. Buffing the rest of the party. Bless. Prayer. Magic Circle Against Evil gives the entire party space to back up and recover. Sorceror can actually do some damage with magic missile and flame strikes. Wizard could even get off a fireball or two. Even then, this thing is plenty smart and can get within striking distance of a spellcaster pretty easy. Which is why the fighter, rogue and cleric put up holding action to keep the thing away from the spellcasters. Besides, wizard, Fifth level, third level spells, FLY. This thing has long arms, but they probably aren't that long. I could go on, but if a group of 4 level 5's can't or can only just barely beat this thing, its CR is too low. I'd say 7 is much better. To be 5 you'd have to drop unholy toughness as well as make the claws only 1d6. I think that'd be a much fairer fight. Thoughts? Its CR is only too low if the characters in question have the tactical sense of a drunken kobold, or truly crappy builds.
Goreg Skullcrusher 06-12-07, 01:01 AM	The monsters in the MM3 are considerably more powerful for a given CR value than those in the MM. I think this was done to reflect parties that actively optimize their builds. In my experience, the monsters in the MM3 are 1-2 CR lower than what they would be had they been incorporated into the original MM. YMMV.
Crimson_Concerto 06-12-07, 01:04 AM	I think it makes for a good challenge. When I used it, my players found it a very difficult encounter, yes, but they were able to defeat it without my having to fudge a single thing. Heck, it was even the 3rd encounter they had that day, so they weren't even at full power when they did this. Also, to give you an idea, this was the party in question, not exactly the most powerful party of all time: Level 3 Shadowcaster Half-Fey Human (+2 LA) Level 4 Psychic Warrior Draconic Kalashtar (+1 LA) Level 2 Paladin / 3 Bard Raptoran Level 5 Ranger Warforged
runestar 06-12-07, 01:20 AM	The boneclaw is definitely not a cr7, since it is noticeably weaker than a hill giant. It appears to be on the stronger side of cr5 (comparable to a 6 headed hydra), but just somewhat too weak compared to other cr6 foes (chain devil, 7-headed hydra, 5 headed cryohydra). While it might be tougher than say, a troll, I don't think the increased challenge is sufficient to bump it up to the cr6 range. So just leave it at 5. It has no treasure after all, so that is a real bummer.
Dead_Weasel 06-12-07, 01:31 AM	Look at page 2 of your MM3. About 2/3 of the way down the page there is the following:This Wizards of the Coast(c) game product contains no Open Game Content. No portion of this work may be reproduced in any form without written permission. To learn more about the Open Gaming License and the d20 System License, please visit www.wizards.com/d20.If you do not see how this is relevant, I suggest that you consider it for a few moments. Anyway, the creature is fairly strong for a CR 5, but I am not certain that it should be a CR 6. Teaming it up with something would definitely make for a challenging encounter, but any ally would boost the EL, meaning that the party would be a higher level, making the thing less of a threat.
Flintlockhandmedown 06-12-07, 01:32 AM	No, he gets AoO'd once. You only provoke one AoO (per opponent) for moving out of a threatened space, no matter how many you move through. So if you move six squares in a near-circle around one of these, he still only gets 1 AoO for that. That's true. It's true, rogues tend to suck against undead. However, if that fighter has a brain, he's wielding a greatsword and using Power Attack. The boneclaw's AC is PATHETIC. Let's see ... Power Attack -5 for +10, 16 STR, Weapon Specialization, average damage 7+10+5=22, -5 DR for 17. That discounts the very HIGH likelihood of him having a magic weapon or a buff on him. The rogue can also still flank, giving the fighter a +2 to hit, and use Aid Another for a total of +4 to hit for the fighter, helping him get the most use of that Power Attack. For the rogue to flank to give the fighter a better than 50% chance of hitting, he needs to get AoO'd which on a high damage roll could nearly drop him. And with that pathetic attack bonus, the Boneclaw will probably miss the fighter. At 5th level, Full Plate is an easy get, taking him up to 18. 19 for a DEX +1, At least +1 armor, AC 20, this thing needs a 13 or better to hit ... well under 50% chance. If he's recieved any form of AC buff from the cleric, it just becomes a bigger joke. Heck, the fighter might be better off fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, because it'll never hit him if he does, except on a 20. The Boneclaw is also using powerattack. It can drop it's use and get +9 to 2 attacks. The drop in damage won't hurt it much. It's still got 2d6+5 to each claw. That's still enough to drop the sorceror in one hit on a real lucky roll. Besides, if the rogue is flanking this thing and it's not having much luck hurting the fighter it can turn around and focus on the rogue, easily possible to kill him in one full attack. 5th level, 3rd level spells, SEARING LIGHT. Buffing the rest of the party. Bless. Prayer. Magic Circle Against Evil gives the entire party space to back up and recover. So he's casting these all at the same time? Plus maneuvering around this thing is impossible, any healing or touch buffs would provoke twice, moving back to magic circle would also provoke. It wouldn't keep him out, he's not summoned. Oh yeah, and if the sorceror/wizard went in there, it would just make him an easier target. If he didn't enter, the boneclaw could run action next to him and then he'd provoke the next round. Which is why the fighter, rogue and cleric put up holding action to keep the thing away from the spellcasters. Besides, wizard, Fifth level, third level spells, FLY. This thing has long arms, but they probably aren't that long.I'm not really seeing this fight take place in a field. More of a, y'know, dungeon. The holding action is valid, if you want to place your cleric in that 20 ft reach, where every move he makes provokes. Its CR is only too low if the characters in question have the tactical sense of a drunken kobold, or truly crappy builds. The fact that we can make comparable arguments is proof that it is too strong for 4 level 5 PCs. They should be able to kill 4 of these, not barely kill one after using all their spells and potentially taking casualties. I'm not trying to say it'd be impossible for PCs to kill them, I'm saying it's not easy enough for PCs to kill them. I mean look at a troll. It's got almost half the hp and can do as much damage per round if it's lucky. Has half the reach and no DR. It doesn't have undead's myriad immunites, it has 4 less HD and the same AC. Regeneration and rend don't make up for that.
runestar 06-12-07, 04:02 AM	Lets do a quick comparison between the troll and the boneclaws. It seems the most apt as they both fulfill the same role - melee bruiser. Troll has much less hp. (advantage: boneclaw) Technically, they both have the same AC. However, the troll has standard treasure, so it is not impossible for it to acquire mundane gear such as a masterwork studded leather armour or some potions to boost its stats. (advantage: troll) Without power attacking, both use the same to-hit roll. Assuming all attacks hit, the boneclaw can deal 4d6+10 or 24 damage, while the troll can deal 5d6+24, or 41 damage. So the troll has the potential to do more damage on a full attack. (advantage: troll) Boneclaw has some nice stuff like undead traits, dr, cold immunity and that sick reach. Troll has regeneration and scent. Tricky to adjudicate, but I will give this to the boneclaw. (advantage: boneclaw). I would say they are more or less on par. Maybe the boneclaw has the advantage in some areas, but as mentioned earlier, that still might not be sufficient to warrant a cr boost.:)
Salla 06-12-07, 06:57 PM	For the rogue to flank to give the fighter a better than 50% chance of hitting, he needs to get AoO'd which on a high damage roll could nearly drop him. DC 15 Tumble check, easily made by a 5th level rogue (16 DEX + 8 ranks=+11) avoids the AoO. The Boneclaw is also using powerattack. It can drop it's use and get +9 to 2 attacks. The drop in damage won't hurt it much. It's still got 2d6+5 to each claw. That's still enough to drop the sorceror in one hit on a real lucky roll. Besides, if the rogue is flanking this thing and it's not having much luck hurting the fighter it can turn around and focus on the rogue, easily possible to kill him in one full attack. First, that assumes it hits. Note, again, its attack bonus sucks. So he's casting these all at the same time? No, one at a time like everybody else. Plus maneuvering around this thing is impossible, any healing or touch buffs would provoke twice, moving back to magic circle would also provoke. It wouldn't keep him out, he's not summoned. But he is evil. Also the Cleric's AC will likely be as high or higher than the fighter's (gotta love heavy armor prof), and the Concentration check to cast defensively is pretty easy, and he won't provoke when trying to touch an ally. Oh yeah, and if the sorceror/wizard went in there, it would just make him an easier target. If he didn't enter, the boneclaw could run action next to him and then he'd provoke the next round. Only if he can go through everybody's spaces ... I don't recall, do boneclaws have enough tumble to expect to hit a 29 for moving through three people's spaces? I'm not really seeing this fight take place in a field. More of a, y'know, dungeon. The holding action is valid, if you want to place your cleric in that 20 ft reach, where every move he makes provokes. Again, casting defensively is easy, and his AC is likely to be high enough that he isn't going to care. And the wizard or sorc can cast defensively, too, or use wands which don't provoke. Reach is nice, but it's not infallible. The fact that we can make comparable arguments is proof that it is too strong for 4 level 5 PCs. No, it means that it's a fair fight if the players and their characters are remotely intelligent.
InsanePsychoRabbit 06-13-07, 10:50 AM	Look at page 2 of your MM3. About 2/3 of the way down the page there is the following: This Wizards of the Coast(c) game product contains no Open Game Content. No portion of this work may be reproduced in any form without written permission. To learn more about the Open Gaming License and the d20 System License, please visit www.wizards.com/d20. If you do not see how this is relevant, I suggest that you consider it for a few moments. Technically, you're correct. However, the Boneclaw was posted on the Wizards website as an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a&page=2) of the MM3 content, so I'd say he's in the clear.
Dead_Weasel 06-13-07, 05:41 PM	Whoops. Not trying to be a jerk, it just irritates me when intellectual property rights are breached. Since it is provided on the site as a teaser, sharing it on the boards is about as inoffensive as you can get. Nevermind...
cwslyclgh 06-13-07, 05:45 PM	I think (and have found in game) that the boneclaws CR is fine at 5.
Kouk 06-13-07, 09:08 PM	Boneclaw is a very impressive monster, certainly at the high end of its CR. But all it can do really is attack, and hope for AoOs. If the party ceases to provoke, then there is not much special about the Boneclaw. They can maneuver around it with Tumble checks or 5ft steps, and can cast at it out of its range or with Casting Defensively. If characters cover for each other, with the fighter right in front of the wizard for instance, it can't get AoOs on the ones being covered (cover stops AoOs) and can cast freely. If you plan on using it, read up on the Rule of the Game article "All About Attacks of Opportunity" it is very important to be up on all the AoO stuff when using this monster. If the party is not playing very intelligently though, then this could very well make the Boneclaw seem a much higher CR than it is.