Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fiery_Overlord 06-28-05, 05:42 PM	Brain Extraction VS Regeneration Ok, this thought came up. Can a troll live without a brain? Regeneration (Ex): A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away. The creature’s descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts; details are in the creature’s descriptive text. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally. A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability. The mind flayer is not part of the SRD but can be found on page 187 of the MM 3.5 I am wondering which sentence take priority. Thank you.
The Vorpal Tribble 06-28-05, 05:47 PM	Extracting the brain doesn't do HP damage so I'd say a troll keels over ;) However, illithids would never touch the brain of the troll, unless it was maybe a day from starvation.
Mula 06-28-05, 06:06 PM	That’s a good question. By the RAW, I’d say trolls couldn’t regenerate their extracted brains because the extract attack doesn’t deal hit point damage. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.According to the text, a troll can only regrow limbs and body parts, which I suppose excludes organs such as brains.
Wayward Son 06-29-05, 11:22 AM	I agree. Part of the text of the Extract Brain ability in the Mind Flayer entry states that extracting the victim's brain has the effect of "killing him instantly". It's not much more clear than that. Since it doesn't deal HP damage, regen doesn't help.
The Vorpal Tribble 06-29-05, 11:46 AM	Which makes me wonder about the psionic Mind Thrust power. It only does damage to the nervous system and brain yet it does HP damage. Thats confused me for some time.
Rocketmonkey 06-29-05, 11:46 AM	Yeah, troll's a dead'un. (Incidentally, does anyone know if removing its heart or lungs would be that fatal? I'd guess the troll would be incapacitated, but able to regrow them fast enough to survive.) However, the 'thid may not be doing that well either. There's a disease in the BoVD that does nasty things to people that feed on regenerating creatures. Can't recall the details, but it's pretty manky. Personally I just like the thought of a troll's brain trying to regenerate inside an illithid like a massively aggressive cancer... could end up with some completely warped and twisted gestalt abomination, both minds driven insane with pain, ripping things to shreds while indiscriminately mind-blasting away... heh heh heh.
Ogre4Hire 06-29-05, 07:28 PM	In 3.0 at least, the Troll's description stated that it could survive the loss of its head, so I'd be inclined to think that it could just as easily survive the loss of just its brain. It's not like trolls have much use for their brains, anyway. In the case of Regenerate, it's important to check with the individual creature's description, since the exact nature may vary (ie, Ogre Mages can't regenerate severed limbs).
Patrick Draken-Korin 06-29-05, 10:56 PM	also there's always multiheaded trolls (or other regenerating creatures); one brain loss can't kill the creature, and the old brain recovers quickly. it's not much, but this could actually be a way for illithids to gain unlimited food. also an illithid probably wouldn't suffer from blue guts (the aforementioned disease); "many (but not all) predatory magical beasts, aberrations, and other creature are immune ro this disease, but no humanoids are." -direct quote from p.30 of BoVD. whether illithids are immune or not is fully up to the DM of the campaign. suggestion for a monster: troll affected by cerebremorphisis (another specific illithidic creation, like the urophion in lords of madness). Read My Glowing, Claw-Like, Finger you have been called upon to make something wierd (you should have no trouble).
Slagger the Chuul 06-30-05, 02:57 AM	I'd say the troll survives, it'll just be a few minutes before it gets back up.
Quirriff 06-30-05, 03:04 AM	Illithid with Hydra pets, when they are hungry they consume the brains and there's 2 more, eat those and there are 4 more. Magic Pudding.
Mist of Shadows 06-30-05, 05:19 AM	Some how I don't think the hydra would put up with you extracting there brain well enough to be a pet. Though forms of mind control would work.
Dark_beebles 06-30-05, 07:03 AM	If the extracting the brain wouldnt kill it. Why does suffocation?
Starmage21 06-30-05, 07:24 AM	If you read 2e Elminister's Ecologies he does an entry on the troll, and nothing short of Fire or Acid would kill it for good (it would even regenerate if its head was removed or even if it was entirely disintegrated). Of course, this is entirely trumped by the no HP damage = no regeneration of 3.0+. I'd houserule it that it reduces the troll to -10 and it has to regenerate from there.
Norhg 06-30-05, 04:17 PM	If the extracting the brain wouldnt kill it. Why does suffocation? That is bullshlt, as in. I belive the troll should take lots of subdual damage instead of lethal damage as long as he can't breath. In my world it is the logical thing to do for a creature who can survive without its head. I won't dispute about what I think. But I'm concerned about which part of the troll would be the "center part". As in, which part would the troll reform from if it was cut to pieces?
Mula 06-30-05, 04:40 PM	Trolls die if beheaded. I think. So they also die if suffocated.
Slagger the Chuul 07-01-05, 03:55 AM	Trolls die if beheaded. I think. So they also die if suffocated. Although removing someone's head doesn't deal hit point damage, the regeneration ability allows the regrowth of body parts, which is why the troll can survive. They can suffocate, however, since nothing in their racial makeup gives them protection against this.
SinisterSeraph 07-01-05, 03:24 PM	That is bullshlt, as in. I belive the troll should take lots of subdual damage instead of lethal damage as long as he can't breath. In my world it is the logical thing to do for a creature who can survive without its head. I won't dispute about what I think. But I'm concerned about which part of the troll would be the "center part". As in, which part would the troll reform from if it was cut to pieces? The Largest part is the "Center" according to 2ed. I tend to rule the trunk of the body as the regenerating part, or the largest portion therof. Plus I tend to rule regen as more magical than biological in nature, so as to get around questions of how it works my players may throw at me. EDIT : the Iron Kingdoms setting has a neat twist on this where a trolls severed limbs sometimes produce diminutive little trolls called "whelps" or something like that. Cut of a trolls ahnd and you may end up with a very mad troll, and a little hyperactive mini-troll with one huge hand. They don't regenerate and are usually just gobbled up by the troll they spawned from. They are temporary creatures and are little more than a flavorful variation of how regen works. Not canon, but a neat twist.
Callahan 07-01-05, 06:04 PM	Well under the extraction it does say that creatures such as Ettins don't die instantly. I'd apply the same rule to all simmilar creatures that can, say, have an extra brain, or grow one back.
Ogre4Hire 07-01-05, 06:41 PM	I checked my MM and the Ogre Mage's description of Regeneration states that if the Ogre Mage loses its head or some other vital organ, it must reattach it within (either 1 or 10) minutes or it dies. Since the Troll's description of Regenerate simply states that it regrows severed limbs in a couple of minutes and says nothing about it being unable to survive without a head, I would assume that neither decapitation or brain extraction are able to kill it.
WraithCaller 07-01-05, 08:08 PM	I think the best way to approach this would be from a scientific point of view. Technically, one could assume that any creature with regeneration has some sort of cellular ability that allows their cells to divide (thus creating more and healing their tissues) at a vastly greater rate that humans or similar creatures. Thus, extracting the brain of a Troll if you take this point of view, would kill it because the brain controls all the functions in the Troll's body, including vital subconcious functions such as breathing or maintaining blood flow through the heart. This is also why suffocation would kill a Troll. Cells need oxygen to survive, and if the lungs are somehow deprived of oxygen (through mundane or magical means) the cells cannot survive and die. If you want to take this approach, pretty much any attack that damages a Troll's (or any other regenerating creature's) most vital organs (brain, heart, and lungs) it will die. If the Troll is stabbed through the stomach and left for dead, the cells will eventually regenerate because the lungs are taking in air, the heart is pumping oxygenated blood throughout the creature, and the brain is subconciously controlling both. Same thing for limbs. Cut-off limbs will regenerate from the cells and blood vessels present in the limb stump. This also explains why only Fire and Acid will harm a Troll normally. Both would damage the cells, making regeneration impossible.
Callahan 07-01-05, 08:39 PM	I think the best way to approach this would be from a scientific point of view. You lost me the moment you said that.
Majorafire77 07-01-05, 10:04 PM	I think the best way to approach this would be from a scientific point of view. Technically, one could assume that any creature with regeneration has some sort of cellular ability that allows their cells to divide (thus creating more and healing their tissues) at a vastly greater rate that humans or similar creatures. Thus, extracting the brain of a Troll if you take this point of view, would kill it because the brain controls all the functions in the Troll's body, including vital subconcious functions such as breathing or maintaining blood flow through the heart. This is also why suffocation would kill a Troll. Cells need oxygen to survive, and if the lungs are somehow deprived of oxygen (through mundane or magical means) the cells cannot survive and die. If you want to take this approach, pretty much any attack that damages a Troll's (or any other regenerating creature's) most vital organs (brain, heart, and lungs) it will die. If the Troll is stabbed through the stomach and left for dead, the cells will eventually regenerate because the lungs are taking in air, the heart is pumping oxygenated blood throughout the creature, and the brain is subconciously controlling both. Same thing for limbs. Cut-off limbs will regenerate from the cells and blood vessels present in the limb stump. This also explains why only Fire and Acid will harm a Troll normally. Both would damage the cells, making regeneration impossible. I agree. Regeneration is an extraordinary ability as opposed to a supernatural one. Therefore, no magic is involved at all. A troll (or Ogre Mage) with its head cut off is probably like a chicken. They don't stop moving for a bit after they're decaptiated right? So, a regenerating creature can probably race around for a while trying to find its head, so it can stick it back on. Thanks to regeneration, the head and the neck would fuse together again, and the brain would regain control over subconscious things such as air distribution to cells and stuff like that. When the brain is extracted, then even if the troll sticks its head back on, there'll be nothing to regain control, and it'll die. My 2 cents...
Callahan 07-01-05, 10:23 PM	ever think that it might be like Vermicelli and be able to survive without a brain or more then half it's body for that matter.
Elthbert 07-01-05, 10:27 PM	I checked my MM and the Ogre Mage's description of Regeneration states that if the Ogre Mage loses its head or some other vital organ, it must reattach it within (either 1 or 10) minutes or it dies. Since the Troll's description of Regenerate simply states that it regrows severed limbs in a couple of minutes and says nothing about it being unable to survive without a head, I would assume that neither decapitation or brain extraction are able to kill it. I agree, if it doesn't do fire or acid damage it doesn't kill it period.
Callahan 07-02-05, 03:32 AM	Regeneration is ineffective against some kinds of assaults, such as death effects or other special effects that cause death, massive damage, drowning, starvation, or having one’s Constitution score reduced to 0. Guess it has to do with the deffinition of extraction. If it's an effect simmilar to death from massive damage or other effects like touch of death; it will kill the Troll. If you don't count it as such then it doesn't.
Antioch 07-02-05, 03:48 AM	Since the extract special attack clearly signifies fatality in absense of multiple heads or or ability to survive without requirments of a brain, my ruling is that the troll dies. Though not terribly intelligent in its own right, the troll possesses a realitively normal assortment of necessary body organs, of which I would assume a brain is one of them. Edit: Since the troll's discription for regeneration does not specifically state that reattachment of its head is possible, as in the case of the ogre magi, then my ruling is that it is not an option.
Elthbert 07-02-05, 03:55 AM	Since the extract special attack clearly signifies fatality in absense of multiple heads or or ability to survive without requirments of a brain, my ruling is that the troll dies. Though not terribly intelligent in its own right, the troll possesses a realitively normal assortment of necessary body organs, of which I would assume a brain is one of them. Edit: Since the troll's discription for regeneration does not specifically state that reattachment of its head is possible, as in the case of the ogre magi, then my ruling is that it is not an option. So it can regenerate a new head but not a new brain? Talk about not making sense.
Antioch 07-02-05, 04:29 AM	I went to take a crap and noticed in reading the DMG (3.5) a nifty little clause, which, contrary to what the first poster wrote, states clearly that; An attack that can cause instant death, such as a coup de grace, massive damage, or an assassin's death attack only threatens the creature with death if its delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage. So therefore by the RAW I'd have to revoke my original statement seeing as I'd assumed that the original poster was accurate in the whole "if it ignores hit points it ignore regen".
Fiery_Overlord 07-02-05, 01:00 PM	I quote straight from the SRD. Part of the clause you are refering to is actually bolded in my quote. Where does it clarify to massive damage and coup de grace? A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. I underlined the statement that you are possibly referancing. Please read more carefully before to appraising the contents of a post for accuracy. I am interested in where to locate further clarification that you may have found that covers dath from massive damage and regeneration. If regeneration requires death from massive damage to be a type that is lethal damage then conceptually mind extraction should not work and I will have to tweek it with a house clause such as "This also counts as an automatically successful coup de grace for determining which beings can be affected." Thankl you in advance.
Antioch 07-02-05, 01:38 PM	And I said that it would not work.
Slagger the Chuul 07-03-05, 06:53 AM	Edit: Since the troll's discription for regeneration does not specifically state that reattachment of its head is possible, as in the case of the ogre magi, then my ruling is that it is not an option. It does cover it with the broad coverage of allowing the regrowth or reattachment of "body parts"; I think we can safely assume that the head is part of a troll's bodymass. Unless we're prepared to do a detailed breakdown of restorable and non-restorable troll organs, we must rely on such broad definitions, and judge that a troll can restore any part of its body (subject to the usual limits of regeneration).
Mula 07-03-05, 09:03 AM	An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.Thus, it seems that a troll wouldn’t be killed by a mind flayer’s extract ability. However, just above this, it says:Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.The rules seem to contradict each other, but a mind flayer does have to make a successful grapple check in order to extract the brain. In the end, I’d have to rule that a troll wouldn’t be killed by a mind flayer’s extract attack.
gradea 07-03-05, 09:15 AM	Rule of Words: Brain extraction is an auto kill, which regeneration can not help with. Logic of Words: Trolls regenerate lost limbs, but the head is a lot diffrent then a normal limb. Fingers can be reatached. Heads can not. Ask a doctor. Biology: Can a creature capable of regenerating limbs (Starfish) regrow a destroyed brain? This I'm not sure of, if I had to guess, I'd say no, but I can't offer expert testimoney (Though lets just say I'm very sure of my guess...). Magiclogical: Regeneration, being mystical, can defy all logic, and return something that is not destroyed by the one thing that stops it. Regen wins. So it really depends on your outlook, though most things tend to favor the Mind Flayer enjoying a tasty treat (Or disgusting appatizer), and leaves behind a rotting carcus.
Feathercircle 07-03-05, 10:21 AM	Biology: Can a creature capable of regenerating limbs (Starfish) regrow a destroyed brain? This I'm not sure of, if I had to guess, I'd say no, but I can't offer expert testimoney (Though lets just say I'm very sure of my guess...)... Generally, regenerating "advanced" creatures in real life can only regrow very specific areas, such as tails. These body parts are usually treated as somewhat expendible, breaking off in dangerous situations to divert a predator from biting onto the non-regenerating, non-expendible parts. The creatures with the most complete regeneration, such as starfish and planaria, tend to be a lot more primitive. They can regrow from massive injuries, can even have whole new individuals regrow from each severed part if they were diced right, but it's their lack of complexity that allows them to do this. Complete regenerators, as a rule, are creatures with high internal redundancy and very simple organ systems and no complex centralized nervous system. Starfish have no brains at all, just a connected "ring" of nerves with radial branches, and planarians can regrow their simple little brain-nub if they've got any of their nerve cord left, and so on. (Some complete regenerators even use this as a form of reproduction and more or less multiply by dividing). Regenerating a brain, for a creature with an Int score above 0 just isn't really practical, for the most part. Unless you've got some magical or physiological method of storing memories outside of the brain (anything from as complex as "these are the guys who just chopped my sodding head off and called me rude names" to as simple as "this is my family's scent"), you're going to be pretty much screwed over and left with nothing to go on but instincts. This is why the brain is so generally crappy at healing compared to the rest of the body- if you don't recreate the connections and configurations in the exact same way as they were before, you might as well have a blank slate and a whole new area of brain. You can re-learn and re-connect, but you can't really recover what was lost, just replace it. If you DO have a species which stores memories external to its brain to allow for complete regeneration (distributed evenly throughout the body to allow any part to regrow into the complete organism, perhaps), then you might as well offload the rest of the nervous system's functions the same way- in which case you don't really have any need for a brain in the first place. My conclusion: If trolls have brains, they probably need them.
High Octane 07-03-05, 10:43 AM	My conclusion: If trolls have brains, they probably need them. Although we've all met a few people who seem to get along fine without them.
RogerWilco 07-03-05, 12:15 PM	A large part of the brain, esp. in a troll, seems only having to do with processing sensory input. It could possibly be regenerated without any ill effects. The only problematic parts would be the parts where memories are stored, learned behaviour and that controls parts of the body outside the head. Suppose a troll would be able to regenerate it's brain, then it only would need to have some distributed memory/behaviour/control ability. As the Ogre Mage is obviously capable of this, I wouldn't think it too farfetched to think that the troll has somehow an anatomy whit a certain redundancy for the essential functions. It would make sense for a creature with regeneration to evolve that way. Maybe the low int is an effect of it, because communication pathways are longer and less efficient? I for one like monsters that keep fighting if you lob they head of. ;)
howlingwolf 07-03-05, 01:01 PM	Granted most computer games to do with DnD are 2e, with a handful at 3e nowadays, in those, Trolls get up from anything short of the usual acid/fire/disintegration combo. But that's on a computer. Personally, it would depend how damn stupid I'm feeling. Having a dead troll return for vengence after it's brain had been eaten would certainly be a good thing. Hey.. Grabs his ideas book and adds that one in.. Mind-Flayer snack bars with trolls in anyone?
Fiery_Overlord 07-04-05, 12:54 AM	Just for clarification, according to RAW a coup de grace using, for example, using a weapon (Sword, dagger, club, bare hand, icecream scope or ect..) to remove the brain is not successful because it is an attack that is converted to non-lethal. It is indeed possible for the troll (or other regenerating being) to live without a brain. This is not the issue. The issue is that the wording in the mind flayer brain extraction does not take into account special cicumstances. It is blunt and provides no clarification of what kind of effect this is for arbitrating exceptions. Is it an automaticly successful coup de grace, death from massive damage, a death effect? It does not say. It is independantly framed within the game without referancing other material for clarification. Thank you all for your coments, especially about the regeneration referance in the special abilties and conditions, that was very useful.
Mumamuma Wurm 07-04-05, 01:24 AM	Here's an idea: a troll's personality/memories/etc. are stored not in a specific part of the brain, but in EVERY nervous cell in their body. So when a troll regenerates from losing its head, its memories/etc. are always completely intact, because there's no possible way to kill EVERY nerve cell in its body before it can regenerate (without actually killing it entirely, like with fire/acid).
Antioch 07-04-05, 04:07 AM	It does cover it with the broad coverage of allowing the regrowth or reattachment of "body parts"; I think we can safely assume that the head is part of a troll's bodymass. Unless we're prepared to do a detailed breakdown of restorable and non-restorable troll organs, we must rely on such broad definitions, and judge that a troll can restore any part of its body (subject to the usual limits of regeneration). I didnt say that a troll could not regenerate its head, just that attachment was not an option by definition of its regeneration description section.
Slagger the Chuul 07-04-05, 08:32 AM	I didnt say that a troll could not regenerate its head, just that attachment was not an option by definition of its regeneration description section. It's regeneration desription doesn't exclude the regrowth or reattachment of the head any more than another body part.
Antioch 07-05-05, 04:16 PM	I wanted to make sure that under the description of Regeneration under the troll entry made sure that it specifically stated that it could reattach arms. Apparently over the course of this thread, and another thread about dying from eating trolls I'd missed the three word clause immediately following that states "or body part". I thought this was odd seeing as I recalled the ogre mage stating arms or head, but decided to double check as well due to this oversight. Same clause as well (though an ogre mage cannot regrow lost body parts). Sorry Slagger, I wasnt sure why you were saying this; "with the broad coverage of allowing the regrowth or reattachment of body parts" until just now.
Slagger the Chuul 07-06-05, 12:31 AM	No trouble. Also long as the trolls know how to do it, the rest of us can get along just fine. :)
Antioch 07-06-05, 12:34 AM	Its all good, I wasnt reading closely enough on your post or the troll description. Back in the old days of 3.0, I'd also overlooked the vorpal clause that the special quality didnt affect any undead except for vampires. At any rate, no hard feelings and its all good. :cool:
misthalas 07-18-05, 06:18 PM	Hi! and greetings from Spain... I want to make a question and explain my vision about Troll's Regeneration against Mind Flayer's Extract Ability. I made a Thread about this before discover this thread. In an spanish mailing list about D&D, we're discussing this issue. And we've said a lot of things so similar to the explanations given here. Well, we're speaking only about Troll's Regeneration and Mind Flayer's Extract Ability, so we leave vorpal and severing weapons alone. I think that Troll's Regeneration is ineffective vs Mind Flayer's Extract Ability. Extract Ability doesn't deal any hit points, so we have to apply the next paragraph from SRD Regeneration Description: "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.". Why? Well, the description of Extract Ability is clear, the creature is instantly killed. We can't make suppositions about how the creature is killed. Well, it's clear that the brain is extracted, but we don't know exactly what is the cause of death (cerebral or brain death? organical damage?). But it's true that Extract doesn't deal hit points damage. Maybe touching brain is enough to kill, maybe it's no necessary extract brain for complete. And this another important clue, the creature is instantly killed, no dead state (-1 to -10), no loss of hit points. It's possible argue that another similar attacks that provoke instant death like Assassin's death attack, Coupe of Grace or Massive Damage are ineffective vs Regeneration. But we're speaking about attack that deals hit points damage, and if the weapon don't deal lethal damage, these special attacks are ineffecitve. And It's true but Extract Ability isn't the same case. It can be clear that a Troll can regenerate a brain, yes, I agree with this. If we have another Ability that, for example, eat a brain, a failed Fortitude Saving Throw makes creature will be killed and a successful saving throw makes 5d6 of hit points damage. In this case, Regeneration is effective vs this Ability. Well, this is my opinion, please, make yous comments. Thanks in Advance!!!
Gyges 07-18-05, 07:33 PM	I'm totally agree with misthalas. PD: las razones las expuse en la lista con el nombre de Turgalas. ;)
Antioch 07-19-05, 04:20 AM	I do not agree due to this simple fact; a +5 vorpal kukri that severs a troll's head does not kill it, which removes the entire head, therefore I see no reason why only removing part of the head would. If the illithid had some way of inflicting fire or acid damage while doing so I might, but otherwise it would simply grow a new brain. Note: Lords of Madness depicts the process in slightly more detail, in which acid is used to melt through the skull to complete the process, so if you wanted to rule that it would based off of the acid effect, I could agree with that.
misthalas 07-19-05, 05:28 AM	Hi! I think that It's two different things, one is a +5 Vorpal Kukri, that it's true that operates like you say - don't work for Trolls (because it's a weapon that deals hit points damage and can't make a damage of fire or acid, so deals non-lethal damage), and another it's the Mind Flayer's Extract Ability, an especial attack that doesn't deal hp damage, only instantly kill the victim. Another reason is that Regeneration can heal damage Ability (like WIS, DEX, CON; etc..). So If I suppose that Extract Ability don't kill, doesn't deal hp damage, and deal 2d6 Damaged Ability INT extracting a part of the brain. I'm sure that Troll can regenerate its lost brain part. But he can't restore the damaged ability. Damaged Ability and Instant Death are two effect that go beyond the reach of Regeneration Ability. Thanks! I do not agree due to this simple fact; a +5 vorpal kukri that severs a troll's head does not kill it, which removes the entire head, therefore I see no reason why only removing part of the head would. If the illithid had some way of inflicting fire or acid damage while doing so I might, but otherwise it would simply grow a new brain. Note: Lords of Madness depicts the process in slightly more detail, in which acid is used to melt through the skull to complete the process, so if you wanted to rule that it would based off of the acid effect, I could agree with that.
Rocketmonkey 07-19-05, 08:15 AM	Personally, it would depend how damn stupid I'm feeling. Having a dead troll return for vengence after it's brain had been eaten would certainly be a good thing. Hey.. "Hallo! My name is Inigo Montrolla! You ate my brain! Prepare to die!"
Antioch 07-19-05, 03:25 PM	But the attack doesnt inflict ability damage at all, and since the troll will just regen the lost portions, there is no reason to accociate the reduction in the first place. Since the attack is technically a death attack, I would have normally said that it ignores regeneration (as stated in MM page 314) because it also does not deal hit point damage. However, since a troll can indeed survive the loss of its head, and the extract is fundamentally an extension of its tentacle attacks (dealing non-lethal damage), then I again rule that it does not kill the troll.
dungeonfrog 07-19-05, 05:25 PM	Ever tried to look at the ogre mage? The ogre mage can re-attach his head within a certain amount of time before dying. The troll on the other hand regenerates from the largest part and therefore doesn't need his head (containing the brains) to be intact. conclusions: a mind-flayer can extract a troll's brain but it will not kill the troll. (but it probably make the troll defenseless due to the lack of a brain).