brass golem [Archive] - Wizards Community

brass golem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
turtlemoonkey
10-11-07, 02:20 AM Question on the brass golem in MMII. It states that it can use a the maze spell as a spell like ability 1/day. So this would naturally be a standard action to cast, no save, SR only. It then states that the brass golem can enter its own maze to purpse the subject. Now what exactly is this as far as actions and combat go?

I mean to enter the maze is it a move/standard action or automatic once maze is cast? Also once in the maze, does the minitaur automaticly get a full attack on the PC trapped in the maze spell? or 1 attack (under idea the pc is trying to leave the maze thus the pc is moving (and possibly an attack of op against pc) and its a move action for the minitaur to "catch" up and then can attack once). What about if doesnt try the full-rnd action to escape the maze? basicly a full rnd attack on the minitar, and another one back on the pc? and last but not least say the PC does make that full-rnd dc 20 int check. the PC reappears where he was supposd to.. is the minitar suddenly outside too (as its can be immune to mazes?). and if so, where?
Dead_Weasel
10-11-07, 04:04 AM Given that the brass golem can enter its own maze "freely" I think that entering the maze would either be a free action as it uses the ability or a move action afterwards. However, the description does state that the golem has to track its target, so my thoughts on the maze...Since the golem is essentially breaking the rules of the maze spell, I would be inclined to put the golem a charge attack's distance away from the target, keeping all other things (i.e. initiative) the same. That way, the subject has a chance to run, escape, or make the first attack, before the golem can do anything - but the subject can see the golem and knows that it needs to do something. I would rule that taking a full-round action to think provokes an AoO, but that is a DM interpretation call (see the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions), I think of it as a skill check, basically) at best.

Also, the spell does not state that the subject knows anything about the spell, or the conditions that end it. The simple act of stopping and thinking about its situation might not occur to it (or a character's player...) and so it would very likely spend the entire duration wandering around, whereas a subject that takes time to collect its thoughts and consider its surroundings has a chance of getting out early....might not seem suitable to you. If the target leaves the maze, the spell essentially ends (since there is no way to return to the space produced by the maze) and I would have it spit the golem back out as well.

I wish that they had kept my favorite component from this golem's 2nd Ed incarnation: a complete minotaur skeleton.
turtlemoonkey
10-11-07, 11:40 AM hmm yeah thats basicly where i was leaning to... i was really just wanting input from others because they really didnt explain that aspect of his ability at all.

So i think ill have the golem enter as free/move action. be X distance away. and basilcy if the PC tries to leave it would resort basicly to a move/attack kinda thing for the minitor or essentially 1 attack per round as it has to "catch" the pc or some AoO that the pc incurse and the pc would be running around, perhaps backtracking and what not. i would rule that if the pc doesnt try to fight, and is like... "im going to go opposite way as minitaur" and then rule the int check (as hes moving around be like. okay ive been this way, this way is probably a dead end, etc)... perhaps a penalty as hes not thinking about how to get out but just kinda panicing and trying to get away from golem. but still not sure on weather to impose a penalty.

anyway thanks
Dead_Weasel
10-11-07, 04:12 PM Weather would have no bearing whatsoever on events taking place inside of a maze spell.

Unless, of course, by weather you mean an event capable of affecting spaces in temporary dimensional spaces, which is less "weather" and more "cataclysm" in my mind.

However, were the subject to be suffering some ill effect due to weather at the time the spell sucks it up, it would need to recover from that effect normally; this is unlikely to be an option since it will soon be on its way back out into the cold/hot/wet/whatever.
turtlemoonkey
10-11-07, 04:16 PM sorry crappy speller. meant whether, as in the option of 2 events taking place. vs weather as in rain, sun, sleet, snow

as in the idea. if the PC is trying to run from the minitor (not exit the maze) may give a penalty on the int check, or just not impose a penalty as hes trying to escape the maze as a full-rnd aciton
Dead_Weasel
10-11-07, 04:21 PM Running from the golem prevents the subject from escaping the maze. The Int check is a full round action; in order for the subject to attempt the check the most it can move in a round is 5 feet. The golem has no fear-inducing abilities, so there should not be any penalty on the check.
turtlemoonkey
10-11-07, 09:01 PM It was under the idea that the int check is an intelegence check to see if u can figure your way out of the maze/maze spell. IE you get teleported to a place where your in the middle of the maze. so your wandering around trying to find your way out, and try to find the exit. since this is the only case of where something else besides the person trapped in the maze can enter it, there was no need to clarify rules or what exactly is happening in the maze, just generalized it as try an int check, if u succed your smart enough to figure yourself a way out.

but enter a monster... since to leave the maze you have to move.. the mosnter will have to move to be able to reach the pc trying to escape from the maze... probably are walls in the way.. but im just trying to generalize what will happen.

A. the pc sees the golem... okay i could fight it. both basicly get full rnd actions against each other.

B. pc decides to flee the golem- basicly 2 move actions, golem would have to do same... since pc could basicly "stumble" on the exit, id rule it as an int check at a penalty (since they arnt activily trying to think of a way to leave... its mostly luck)

C. or pc decides to leave maze as soon as possible- full rnd action as pc tries to leave. probably invovles movement, so golem would have to "chase" the pc if it wanted to attack. i dont see the int check as a pc just in another dimention standing still going... hmm am i smart am i smart.. *rolls* nope.. hmm am i smart am i smart? *rolls* yes made it. *pc suddenly reappears for no reason* the pc is running aroundthe maze going.. okay ive been here, this is dead end... sort of making a mental map of the maze in his head. or something else (say the maze had no ceiling.. so climb the walls and you can see entire maze and walls. and thus int check to figure out that plan or various other ways). the designers really didnt need to elaborate on as it didnt matter except in this isolated case.

at least thats kinda how i see it as what is happening in the maze... since this wasnt intended to happen orginally with the spell, and the monster ability of it wasnt elaborated on it... its kinda ad hoc whats going on, and rules for the encounter in the maze. i was just looking to see if any one else had any ideas of how to handle it, or what they had used in the past.
Dead_Weasel
10-11-07, 11:10 PM A) kinda works, whether or not you just exchange full-attacks is up to you. There are lots of tactics available in a one-on-one fight.

B) does not work at all, because the maze does not have an exit.

C) really depends on how you interpret it. In my opinion, maze works like every other spell: if you are not a spellcaster, and the spell's effects are not extremely obvious, you do not know how to get rid of it, or perhaps even that you are being affected by anything.

When it comes to the actual physical layout of the maze, it is really up to the DM, because the maze's physical dimensions are not provided by the spell. This is because ordinarily, the maze's actual physical dimensions are meaningless - the subject is the maze's only occupant, and is only there for 10 minutes or until they sit down and think.

You are dead on about one thing: the brass golem's ability to join the subject inside the maze was not anticipated by the spell's writer, so it is completely unaccounted for. The writer of the brass golem, on the other hand, did not really consider how the ability would function/interact with the spell, and thus did not describe it for us. You simply have to make up your own rules for the maze - and if you think that it should have an actual exit, that is your call. As for the walls, floor and ceiling(?) I have always assumed that they are just walls of force.

The problem with the way you are thinking of the Int check is that the subject cannot just run along, trying to find the exit: that means that the subject is using actions to move, and therefore cannot take a full-round action for the skill check. The subject needs to actually stop and think. I would make the check for a character if the player said "Wait a minute, I need to think about this," or something similar. Once the player realizes that when he stops and thinks, I start rolling dice, then he can get to the realization that it is a puzzle. As an undefined extradimensional space whose primary feature is a lot of invisible walls, no amount of running around is going to get you out of the maze.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
turtlemoonkey 10-11-07, 02:20 AM	Question on the brass golem in MMII. It states that it can use a the maze spell as a spell like ability 1/day. So this would naturally be a standard action to cast, no save, SR only. It then states that the brass golem can enter its own maze to purpse the subject. Now what exactly is this as far as actions and combat go? I mean to enter the maze is it a move/standard action or automatic once maze is cast? Also once in the maze, does the minitaur automaticly get a full attack on the PC trapped in the maze spell? or 1 attack (under idea the pc is trying to leave the maze thus the pc is moving (and possibly an attack of op against pc) and its a move action for the minitaur to "catch" up and then can attack once). What about if doesnt try the full-rnd action to escape the maze? basicly a full rnd attack on the minitar, and another one back on the pc? and last but not least say the PC does make that full-rnd dc 20 int check. the PC reappears where he was supposd to.. is the minitar suddenly outside too (as its can be immune to mazes?). and if so, where?
Dead_Weasel 10-11-07, 04:04 AM	Given that the brass golem can enter its own maze "freely" I think that entering the maze would either be a free action as it uses the ability or a move action afterwards. However, the description does state that the golem has to track its target, so my thoughts on the maze...Since the golem is essentially breaking the rules of the maze spell, I would be inclined to put the golem a charge attack's distance away from the target, keeping all other things (i.e. initiative) the same. That way, the subject has a chance to run, escape, or make the first attack, before the golem can do anything - but the subject can see the golem and knows that it needs to do something. I would rule that taking a full-round action to think provokes an AoO, but that is a DM interpretation call (see the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions), I think of it as a skill check, basically) at best. Also, the spell does not state that the subject knows anything about the spell, or the conditions that end it. The simple act of stopping and thinking about its situation might not occur to it (or a character's player...) and so it would very likely spend the entire duration wandering around, whereas a subject that takes time to collect its thoughts and consider its surroundings has a chance of getting out early....might not seem suitable to you. If the target leaves the maze, the spell essentially ends (since there is no way to return to the space produced by the maze) and I would have it spit the golem back out as well. I wish that they had kept my favorite component from this golem's 2nd Ed incarnation: a complete minotaur skeleton.
turtlemoonkey 10-11-07, 11:40 AM	hmm yeah thats basicly where i was leaning to... i was really just wanting input from others because they really didnt explain that aspect of his ability at all. So i think ill have the golem enter as free/move action. be X distance away. and basilcy if the PC tries to leave it would resort basicly to a move/attack kinda thing for the minitor or essentially 1 attack per round as it has to "catch" the pc or some AoO that the pc incurse and the pc would be running around, perhaps backtracking and what not. i would rule that if the pc doesnt try to fight, and is like... "im going to go opposite way as minitaur" and then rule the int check (as hes moving around be like. okay ive been this way, this way is probably a dead end, etc)... perhaps a penalty as hes not thinking about how to get out but just kinda panicing and trying to get away from golem. but still not sure on weather to impose a penalty. anyway thanks
Dead_Weasel 10-11-07, 04:12 PM	Weather would have no bearing whatsoever on events taking place inside of a maze spell. Unless, of course, by weather you mean an event capable of affecting spaces in temporary dimensional spaces, which is less "weather" and more "cataclysm" in my mind. However, were the subject to be suffering some ill effect due to weather at the time the spell sucks it up, it would need to recover from that effect normally; this is unlikely to be an option since it will soon be on its way back out into the cold/hot/wet/whatever.
turtlemoonkey 10-11-07, 04:16 PM	sorry crappy speller. meant whether, as in the option of 2 events taking place. vs weather as in rain, sun, sleet, snow as in the idea. if the PC is trying to run from the minitor (not exit the maze) may give a penalty on the int check, or just not impose a penalty as hes trying to escape the maze as a full-rnd aciton
Dead_Weasel 10-11-07, 04:21 PM	Running from the golem prevents the subject from escaping the maze. The Int check is a full round action; in order for the subject to attempt the check the most it can move in a round is 5 feet. The golem has no fear-inducing abilities, so there should not be any penalty on the check.
turtlemoonkey 10-11-07, 09:01 PM	It was under the idea that the int check is an intelegence check to see if u can figure your way out of the maze/maze spell. IE you get teleported to a place where your in the middle of the maze. so your wandering around trying to find your way out, and try to find the exit. since this is the only case of where something else besides the person trapped in the maze can enter it, there was no need to clarify rules or what exactly is happening in the maze, just generalized it as try an int check, if u succed your smart enough to figure yourself a way out. but enter a monster... since to leave the maze you have to move.. the mosnter will have to move to be able to reach the pc trying to escape from the maze... probably are walls in the way.. but im just trying to generalize what will happen. A. the pc sees the golem... okay i could fight it. both basicly get full rnd actions against each other. B. pc decides to flee the golem- basicly 2 move actions, golem would have to do same... since pc could basicly "stumble" on the exit, id rule it as an int check at a penalty (since they arnt activily trying to think of a way to leave... its mostly luck) C. or pc decides to leave maze as soon as possible- full rnd action as pc tries to leave. probably invovles movement, so golem would have to "chase" the pc if it wanted to attack. i dont see the int check as a pc just in another dimention standing still going... hmm am i smart am i smart.. rolls nope.. hmm am i smart am i smart? rolls yes made it. pc suddenly reappears for no reason the pc is running aroundthe maze going.. okay ive been here, this is dead end... sort of making a mental map of the maze in his head. or something else (say the maze had no ceiling.. so climb the walls and you can see entire maze and walls. and thus int check to figure out that plan or various other ways). the designers really didnt need to elaborate on as it didnt matter except in this isolated case. at least thats kinda how i see it as what is happening in the maze... since this wasnt intended to happen orginally with the spell, and the monster ability of it wasnt elaborated on it... its kinda ad hoc whats going on, and rules for the encounter in the maze. i was just looking to see if any one else had any ideas of how to handle it, or what they had used in the past.
Dead_Weasel 10-11-07, 11:10 PM	A) kinda works, whether or not you just exchange full-attacks is up to you. There are lots of tactics available in a one-on-one fight. B) does not work at all, because the maze does not have an exit. C) really depends on how you interpret it. In my opinion, maze works like every other spell: if you are not a spellcaster, and the spell's effects are not extremely obvious, you do not know how to get rid of it, or perhaps even that you are being affected by anything. When it comes to the actual physical layout of the maze, it is really up to the DM, because the maze's physical dimensions are not provided by the spell. This is because ordinarily, the maze's actual physical dimensions are meaningless - the subject is the maze's only occupant, and is only there for 10 minutes or until they sit down and think. You are dead on about one thing: the brass golem's ability to join the subject inside the maze was not anticipated by the spell's writer, so it is completely unaccounted for. The writer of the brass golem, on the other hand, did not really consider how the ability would function/interact with the spell, and thus did not describe it for us. You simply have to make up your own rules for the maze - and if you think that it should have an actual exit, that is your call. As for the walls, floor and ceiling(?) I have always assumed that they are just walls of force. The problem with the way you are thinking of the Int check is that the subject cannot just run along, trying to find the exit: that means that the subject is using actions to move, and therefore cannot take a full-round action for the skill check. The subject needs to actually stop and think. I would make the check for a character if the player said "Wait a minute, I need to think about this," or something similar. Once the player realizes that when he stops and thinks, I start rolling dice, then he can get to the realization that it is a puzzle. As an undefined extradimensional space whose primary feature is a lot of invisible walls, no amount of running around is going to get you out of the maze.