Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 01-06-08, 09:41 AM	If a dragon holding its breath to avoid drowning or suffocating uses its breath weapon, does it exhale, beginning the process of drowning or suffocating? I don't see any guidance under the rules in the Monster Manual under breath weapons. I could see it going either way, and I'm interested in seeing what you think. Thanks! :)
DebiHuman 01-06-08, 11:09 AM	D&D uses the failure of the Constitution check to determine when a character begins to drown or suffocate. You can describe this any way you want, as the physiology of the creature isn't taken into account. As long as you are consistent, the rules won't matter (though I see this as a rare situation). If you want to house rule that any character or creature who purposefully exhales [and is no longer holding his breath] automatically fails his Constitution check that is fine. It's probably a rare enough occurance. You could likewise rule that a dragon cannot hold its breath and use its breath weapon at the same time. Of course, how you get a dragon into a situation where drowning or suffocating is likely to take place is much more difficult. Moreover, there is always magic that works against this (an iredescent ioun stone for example). Debby
Thorsbjorn 01-06-08, 11:29 AM	D&D uses the failure of the Constitution check to determine when a character begins to drown or suffocate. You can describe this any way you want, as the physiology of the creature isn't taken into account. As long as you are consistent, the rules won't matter (though I see this as a rare situation). If you want to house rule that any character or creature who purposefully exhales [and is no longer holding his breath] automatically fails his Constitution check that is fine. It's probably a rare enough occurance. You could likewise rule that a dragon cannot hold its breath and use its breath weapon at the same time. Of course, how you get a dragon into a situation where drowning or suffocating is likely to take place is much more difficult. Moreover, there is always magic that works against this (an iredescent ioun stone for example). Debby Thanks Debby. I'm familiar with the required Constitution check if the character is no longer holding her breath. I'm sure it's a rare situation--but it's one in which the PCs in my campaign find themselves as of the end of last night's session. The rudder of the ship on which they're traveling got entangled. The party's half-celestial melee specialist and the wizard's dragon cohort had the best Swim modifiers, so they swam down to check out the rudder. Four dire sharks and one medium shark attacked them just after the half-celestial started to cut kelp from around the rudder and got stabbed by the hidden, poisoned blackskate stingers embedded in the kelp. :schemes: The half-celestial and dragon are both holding their breath, but it occurred to me that the dragon might have to exhale if she wanted to use her breath weapon. Thanks for giving me your take on the situation! :)
sblaxman 01-06-08, 01:39 PM	Also keep in mind if the breath weapon will even work under water. The dragon can give it a shot, but fire/gas/acid breath isn't really going to go anywhere... ice breath would just freeze the water (and might make it suffocate faster if it freezes in it's mouth)... lightning would (according to the older rules) act as a fireball... as for other breaths, it's up to the DM on the underwater effect
DebiHuman 01-06-08, 04:44 PM	Here's another question: what kind of dragon was it? Most dragons that have a Swim speed can breathe underwater.] Debby
Thorsbjorn 01-06-08, 05:47 PM	Also keep in mind if the breath weapon will even work under water. The dragon can give it a shot, but fire/gas/acid breath isn't really going to go anywhere... ice breath would just freeze the water (and might make it suffocate faster if it freezes in it's mouth)... lightning would (according to the older rules) act as a fireball... as for other breaths, it's up to the DM on the underwater effect I her case it is cold. It's not like an wall of ice though, that bobbed to the surface under the AD&D (1st Ed) rules. I don't recall anything from AD&D that prevented a cone of cold from working under water, do you? Actually I'm looking at those rules on page 57 of the AD&D DMG, and there's nothing listed for cone of cold, so it works normally. I checked the 3.5 DMG, pages 92 and 93, and under 3.5, water doesn't seem to have any effect on magic other than on magical fire. I didn't find anything in Stormwrack about water affecting magic. Here's another question: what kind of dragon was it? Most dragons that have a Swim speed can breathe underwater.] Debby She's a sliver dragon. She doesn't have a swimming speed; she just has the second-highest Swim bonus (+12) in the party, after the half-celestial (+25!). The party didn't want to send him down alone in case of trouble, so they sent her too. It's generally better not to separate one character from the rest of the party. :)
DebiHuman 01-06-08, 07:54 PM	I her case it is cold. It's not like an wall of ice though, that bobbed to the surface under the AD&D (1st Ed) rules. I don't recall anything from AD&D that prevented a cone of cold from working under water, do you? Actually I'm looking at those rules on page 57 of the AD&D DMG, and there's nothing listed for cone of cold, so it works normally. I checked the 3.5 DMG, pages 92 and 93, and under 3.5, water doesn't seem to have any effect on magic other than on magical fire. I didn't find anything in Stormwrack about water affecting magic. She's a sliver dragon. She doesn't have a swimming speed; she just has the second-highest Swim bonus (+12) in the party, after the half-celestial (+25!). The party didn't want to send him down alone in case of trouble, so they sent her too. It's generally better not to separate one character from the rest of the party. :) If she were a silver dragon, she could assume the form of a waterbreathing animal and could avoid drowning that way. Also, being underwater does affect magic -- there is a list of which spells are affected but I'm not sure in which book it appears. It is also noted in spell descriptions (or it should be). Debby
Thorsbjorn 01-06-08, 11:52 PM	If she were a silver dragon, she could assume the form of a waterbreathing animal and could avoid drowning that way. Also, being underwater does affect magic -- there is a list of which spells are affected but I'm not sure in which book it appears. It is also noted in spell descriptions (or it should be). Debby If one of those dire sharks gets her in its mouth for an extended period, she might just switch to a water-breathing form, but for now she can hold her breath. She'd lose a lot of AC and provoke two attacks of opportunity if she changed form right now. I'm not sure that's worth it just for free use of her breath weapon. Also the wizard got everyone in the part a piece of air plant (from Stormwrack) that when placed in the mouth allows the creature to breath, so she could use that an retain her current form. The 1st Ed DMG has a list of spells affected by being underwater, but I have found no such list in the 3.5 DMG. It does contain a section on the use of fire underwater, along with the rest of the combat effects of water, and there's nothing there that I see saying that water affects any other spells. If you find such a list, please direct me to it. :)