Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TaliaWinters 09-02-04, 06:18 PM	Hum ... Monsters or DM ... thought it is wrong but I saw it too late, sry. Hi! I'm almost new to D&D-DM'ing and I plan'ed a campaign for my players. They will start with lvl 6th+. It's a traditional good vs evil and they will fight in the first part only vs undead. I expect that this will work, but I have no experience with: >higher chars vs undead< The cleric could work all the time, and I have to look that he won't turn my undead, every fight. I need a point of view from some experienced player to that. [b]Are there some problems/tactics/tricks I should expect?
Gez 09-02-04, 06:50 PM	I'm almost new to D&D-DM'ing and I plan'ed a campaign for my players. They will start with lvl 6th+. [barb, cler, dru, rang, roug> good package ^^] The rouge will be nearly useless. The undead do not pay attention to good makeup. More seriously, the rogue is a wimp in combat when he can't sneak attack. Unless you can get a Miniatures Handbook and give him the Skullclan Hunter prestige class, he'll feel useless. The way to fix that would be to put traps everywhere. Then, the rogue will only feel useless in combat, and exploring the dungeons will be slowed to crawl because of paranoid search rolls before each door, each chest, each drawer, each 5-foot square. That's the problem with a "monomonstrous" campaign. D&D is designed assuming the PCs are diverse, and will face divers threats. Specialise one side but not the other (lots of classes, only one kind of monsters; or only one class, lots of kinds of monsters), and you'll upset things. Not to say you shouldn't do it. But be warned it'll be harder to adjust than a "vanilla" campaign.
kliate 09-02-04, 06:55 PM	If the cleric turns undead every fight, then sooner or later he'll run out of turning attempts for the day. An intelligent undead who know's of the Cleric's limitations may send a few minor undead to get him to waste his turning attempts, and then swarm the poor sucker. Consider using some of the following settings: -Fog. It adds an eerie feeling to the scene and allows the undead to strike seemlingly from out of nowhere - fortunately most undead creatures can't see in the fog any better than the PC's. -Darkness. Undead can be a game of numbers..more undead = more attacks = more hits when everything has a miss chance. Undead with darkvision don't even have to worry about miss chances unless the darkness is magical. -Water. Undead don't have to breathe. Those undead that can cross running water have a perfect ambush point to work from.
TaliaWinters 09-03-04, 07:19 AM	@Gez I don't think of the rouge as a useless char, cause this are only starting classes he'll later get a Divine Crusader so that's little problem to that. But thxs to figure it out, this is stuff you could'nt knew. @kilate Ahh ok this are some good tips. I don't want to make fight like: "The monsters are here infront of you, lets start roll initiative, who got first attack ..." It's fun at start but not all the time, but with this I can make a other kind of fight-feeling, like some descriptions in the DMHB I thought of.
edsonaoki 09-03-04, 10:39 AM	If the cleric turns undead every fight, then sooner or later he'll run out of turning attempts for the day. An intelligent undead who know's of the Cleric's limitations may send a few minor undead to get him to waste his turning attempts, and then swarm the poor sucker. It depends. A cleric can easilly get 5+ turning attempts per says. I rarely campaigns where there are more than 3 challenging fights per day. About the "few minor undead", would the party´s cleric be so dumb to use turn undead against 3 skeletons that can be dispatched in one round? I need a point of view from some experienced player to that. Are there some problems/tactics/tricks I should expect? A problem that you may find is everyone taking PrCs and feat/class ability choices highly specialized on fighting undead. These PrCs, for instance, are supposed to be balanced by the fact that not every enemy is undead, and if it´s not the case, they may easilly become super characters.
Galahad the Pure 09-03-04, 11:02 AM	I did an "undead hunter" campaign before. Man, it was annoying. Make sure you limit access to turn-boosting items and feats. In other words don't allow Radiant Servant of Pelor or Disciple of the Sun. I had a BBEG get nuked in the first round by a greater turning and a lucky roll. Also, in my opinion, undead are not the most fun monsters to play, since they have many irritating abilities. Incorporeal creatures make the battles drag out, and players whine when they get energy drained. Also, vampires and liches tend to take more time to make since you have to add templates and think about how their natural abilities mesh. Lastly, it eventually gets dull. Depending on what kind of monster resources you have, this might not happen. But I was playing with just the monster manual creatures, and there's only so much you can do with them. Anyway, most of my complaints were matters of my opinion. If you don't think you'll mind any of the above problems, go for it. I wouldn't mind doing another "undead hunter" campaign as long as I fixed some of the mistakes I made the first time around.
novachild 09-03-04, 02:21 PM	your characters are lvl 6 +, right? Most Undead that will challenge them will have decent turning resistance, anyway... Another option is to say that these particular undead are spawned by some "sinkhole of evil" type effect, and are naturally more turn resistant, or even immune. there's nothing to stop you from altering the monsters a bit to suit your campaign, and that's what's great about being a DM... Also, I don't agree that the rogue will be useless... but in combat, he may not be a star. Undead are immune to poison gas, so they may use it as an advantage, and a rogue might be invaluable in disarming 'traps' that an intelligent undead has set for your party... just some thoughts. always remember: your campaign, your players, your freedom to do with the material what you want. I typically tailor things to challenge the particular party I am DMing... with a bit of thought and creativity and work, I think any campaign idea can work. Good luck, it sounds like you have an interesting idea.
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-03-04, 03:17 PM	The rouge will be nearly useless. The undead do not pay attention to good makeup. More seriously, the rogue is a wimp in combat when he can't sneak attack. Unless you can get a Miniatures Handbook and give him the Skullclan Hunter prestige class, he'll feel useless. Speaking from actually experiencing this as a DM with a rogue player, Gez is exactly right on. For while at the start of epic level play, there were lots of Winterwights and Lavawights to fight. The player kept feeling disappointed in his character, and thought rogues were weak - even at epic levels, simply bc he felt really subpar in combat vs. undead. And, just like Gez suggested, that player did take a level of Skullclan Hunter to help remedy the situation. I wasn't happy with the role playing reasons for it, but I was satisfied enough to allow it, especially in view of the player feeling like his rogue had been "useless" for more than a few sessions. The way to fix that would be to put traps everywhere. Then, the rogue will only feel useless in combat, and exploring the dungeons will be slowed to crawl because of paranoid search rolls before each door, each chest, each drawer, each 5-foot square. A good idea, I'll have to remember that. Unfortunately, didn't make as much sense in our last campaign bc most of the undead encounters were in the frozen north's wilderness, and only occassionally "indoors" in a dungeon. That's the problem with a "monomonstrous" campaign. D&D is designed assuming the PCs are diverse, and will face divers threats. Specialise one side but not the other (lots of classes, only one kind of monsters; or only one class, lots of kinds of monsters), and you'll upset things. Not to say you shouldn't do it. But be warned it'll be harder to adjust than a "vanilla" campaign. All great points. I'll have to rememer this as I start up a new Realms game coming up and expand on the number and types of "enemy groups" in the game, to make sure one class isn't unnecessarily hurt by the types of recurring enemies. The variety presented by at least, say 3, enemy power groups or organizations will probably work best.
TaliaWinters 09-03-04, 07:05 PM	Ahh some more stuff to use *g hehe. You point to much attention to the rouge. I shoulnt have post it, but I thought it could be helpfull to some tips, imho. I went almost wrong. ;)
Tifus Artwin 09-04-04, 05:39 AM	Ever hear of Necromancers ??? Evil Clerics, and Wizards make great BBEG's. I dont remember what book it was in, but theres a PrC, the True Necromancer, and a few others that make even simple run of the mill clerics, wizards, and Clr/Wiz even greater. Also, a Desecreated area adds to a Undeads turn resistance. Not all the encounters have to be with the damned either, i ran a simular adventure before, had the PC's come acrost come cannables, turned there stomics :smirk: , but got the point acrost, those bedraggeled peons are not the most friendly in the neighborhood. At the top of the tower they encountered the lord, an skeleton with a good deal of HP and a headband of Int, while it wasnt the smartest of the cookies, it was a powerful opponent with some of the things i have him, and with the headband, it could use them. Imagine there suprise when that skeleton throws a fireball at them from an enchanted shield that absorbed most of the spells they threw into the area. The point is, you dont have to have everyday run of the mill undead, and some of the magic items that the PC's are always useing can be used aginst them, even better when that item is cursed and any non-evil that uses it gains a negitive level from the unholiness of it. Add some spice, mix things up, and use the living as well, there are a lot of sick and twisted people out there, and even the gods get involved at times and toss in a surprise that even the gods of good didnt know about. Use your imagination, if you can think of it, so can someone else, and if not, then the gods might help them out abit with a few twisted dreams, or by even doing it themselfs. Give a higher purpose then 'slay all the undead in here, get the treasure, and find somemore to kill'. Have the Gods involed, in my caimpaign, (it was a dualism styled game) the god of darkness challenged the god of light, once the "playing field" was set, they sent in there champions to see who would be the most powerful for the next 1000 years.
nick012000 09-04-04, 06:12 AM	Expect all of the players to buy +1 Holy Swords/Maces/Staffs/Whatever of Undead Bane as soon as they can.
kliate 09-04-04, 10:38 AM	Like a +1 Holy Disrupting Undeadbane Warhammer? Only 50,312gp - or would you like that in alchemical silver, too? Oh, you're a two-weapon ranger with favored enemy: undead +4 who wants two? We'll see what we can do for you. So, without the silvered option, assuming hits w/o power attack and Str 15 you're doing 2d8+4d6+18 Oh yeah..monkey grip with large warhammers as above makes for 8d6+18 if both hit. It's *only* a -6 penalty to hit, which you already half make up for with the +1 bane feature. Most undead I've seen don't exactly have AC as a strong point (*cough, zombies *cough) Just watch out for the nightwalker who wants to 'examine' your weapons closely. <crunch>
TaliaWinters 09-04-04, 06:36 PM	Evil Clerics, and Wizards make great BBEG's. The world will be headed by clerics vs sorceress/wizards. Magic without divine is an infamous action. And of course magic from an evil divine, too. I use almoste every PrC I can get for it *g, hum but never saw the True Necromancer... if you memorise what book, let me know ^^. And jear,... that's a good point I will draw up: BBEG's! @nick & kliate The first part will be work vs. undead. (won't tell the whole story, would take to long). So if they think they should do this ok. Later they will be a good undead hunter but they neglect the rest. It's an advantage for now and later vs undead. but later there be fewer undead instead of other monsters. @magical weapons jear right, they'll try to get as soon magical weapons as they could. But that's a wish of all young charakters to get a "+1 weapon". Till now, they are lucky that they had a cleric and a druid who can enhance weapons, very funny. To make it a bit harder I have to get them come clean. :smirk:
Kaminton 09-04-04, 08:06 PM	You could be really mean and put a fiend of some sort (Devil or Demon) as your BBEG, or the BBEG's advisor... Just because it's an undead-hunting campaign doesn't mean you won't have encounters with non-undead creatures. In my campaign, the BBEG is a vampire, and most of the time will be spent trying to foil his plots and destroy his vampire lieutenants - but the party will have to infiltrate orcish territory (the BBEG's forcibly uniting the orc tribes under a puppet warlord) and assemble an alliance of kingdoms to oppose that orc army.
krichaiushii 09-04-04, 10:15 PM	Kaminton is spot-on. Use a vampire that has dominated or otherwise duped mortals into fighting for it. Failing a vampire, some other undead spellcaster that has enough control and ability to cast charm or domination spells... or perhaps even use old-fashioned blackmail (defend me or I will EAT your family). Certain undead beg for class levels and/or templates. While being partial to the Spellstitched template (MMII), levels in rogue can make for sneak attacking undead - which is always fun with touch-attacks. Vampire clerics, mummy monks, wight rogue/assassins, the list goes on and on. Consider picking up some of the Ravenloft books for ideas on how to better customize your undead. Their book on the Walking Dead has provided me with LOTS of ideas. True Necromancer was in Tome and Blood, and will likely (or already has been) reprinted in the 3.5 Complete series.
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-04-04, 10:23 PM	A new WotC D&D 3.5 Sourcebook for Undead is coming out next month, too, Libris Mortis. That might just rock :)
Grox 09-04-04, 10:30 PM	It depends. A cleric can easilly get 5+ turning attempts per says. I rarely campaigns where there are more than 3 challenging fights per day. About the "few minor undead", would the party´s cleric be so dumb to use turn undead against 3 skeletons that can be dispatched in one round? But that's what the undead are about. Legions of them that JUST KEEP COMING. Undead never get tired, and the intelligent ones know this, so they try to make their lairs in challenging environments --- dangerous to rest in, and too inaccessible to easily "go back to town and recoup". Seriously, the undead won't last very long as BBEGs if they want to try and open every combat with some dramatic, devastating attack that they deliver in person. By 10-12th level, paladins are laughing at that their best shots, and clerics can get everyone back on their feet quite easily in short order. There's no good reason why the PCs should be REMOTELY fresh when facing the BBEGs. The big mistake that people make with undead campaigns is not enough enemies, not enough fights. A friend of mine tried to run one with vampires, where the adventuring party went up against one vampire each couple of levels. He was unfamiliar with 3e rules, big on atmosphere but very lazy with his tactics. Even at fairly low levels, we waxed his vampires without too much trouble --- we were a large party, and the half-orc fighter whose name I took as my username on this message board would team up with two other half-orcs of 20+ Strength, immediately grapple and stake; fight over. I know, I know, there are plenty of reasons why this shouldn't work against a vampire run with competent tactics, but IMO the most important one is that the DM had to be willing to put the time in to work out the stats for lots of MINIONS! We were so successful we eventually forced him to turn it into a "demonic" campaign, because only evil outsiders provided the raw power needed to challenge a party alone with bad tactics. (He had no dragon minis:)) 3e rules make it a lot harder for a single monster to challenge a diverse, prepared adventuring party at any level (especially a fresh party) --- and the monsters who CAN do that are special ones, like dragons and demons, not some moldy old vampire or lich. The vampires and liches have to be very CLEVER --- hiding their phylacteries/coffins, using their spells and special abilities creatively, etc., but that's not enough --- they have to be clever IN EVERY WAY, which includes having a lot of undead minions. Remember, a cleric doesn't have to be "stupid" to "waste" a turning attempt on low-level undead. Have the party face said skeletons in a solid fog, or darkness, armed with poisoned weapons and buffed to the max. Or just use ghouls; any creature, no matter how lowly, that reguarly forces PCs to make saves or be incapacitated should warrant a turning attempt. Remember, with CW's Divine Feats, the party can start using their turning attempts for buffing purposes (including Sacred Vengeance!), so you want them to be constantly worried about running out of turning slots. You can also make the party's cleric use turning attempts to get through special doors, or by special traps. The core rulebooks actually explain this concept. You can greatly increase the rogue's usefulness by including mortal enemies, as was already suggested. To add realism to this, I suggest the "Master Undead" spell -- a 9th-level necromancy spell from 2e that dominates undead of any intelligence, up to AND INCLUDING immediate self-destruction. I don't remember the details, but make sure it has the "Evil" descriptor IYC so that most of your PCs will have no direct use for it. Its mere *existence* is useful, because it makes the highest-level undead very skittish about dealing directly *with each other* for fear of treachery involving a lucky casting of the spell. The spell's mere existence gives such vampires and liches a very good reason to invest in competent followers who are living, breathing, evil creatures. Furthermore, say that the most powerful core undead creatures need unique weapons to be put down *forever*. Make the weapons indestructible, so that the BBEGs can't destroy them, but can only try to hide them --- VERY WELL. In effect, these special weapons have to be stolen. Not only that, but once the party gets their hands on them, Vampire Central will go crazy sending their human followers to steal them right back --- preferably during broad daylight, the time when most vampire hunters' guard is down and they're looking for some well-deserved rest.
Grox 09-04-04, 10:33 PM	Expect all of the players to buy +1 Holy Swords/Maces/Staffs/Whatever of Undead Bane as soon as they can. As well they should. But remember, that any GM worth his salt gives his vampires at least a few fighter levels, and the feats for Improved Sunder and Improved Disarm.
Tifus Artwin 09-09-04, 06:12 AM	Yes, the True Necromancer is in Tome and Blood, also the Pale Master is in that book as well. Also, for that wizard vampire that your wondering what to do with, check out the Mindbender from the same book, though i think its been reprinted elsewhere, i have to many books to remember if it has. Oh, and check out the nightfang Spire caimpaign for some good ideas on undead combinations, diffrent monsters that you can use, and a few nasty ideas ..... Vampiric Gibberling Mouther anyone ???
novachild 09-09-04, 03:23 PM	another important thing to note is that undead are often -templates- and can have almost -any- base creature this can keep the players guessing what they'll meet next... also, although some purists dislike the material, the Dragon and Dungeon magazines have templates for a T'liz (the classic campaigns Dragon) and an Athasian Zombie (The Dark Sun Dungeon) that are a unique twist on undead that players may not expect.