Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 10-24-06, 10:42 PM	Is it possible for creatures such as demons or chromatic dragons to choose to overcome their evil ways, and become good. I know that in the Monster Manuals, under the glossary sections, it says that a few creatures with always next to their alignment can change it, and that it’s so rare it practically makes them unique, but is it really possible for a creature born evil to completely turn to good? If I were to make a demon backup character using the succubus' rules (an incubi basically), could I justify making him a good aligned character. Or if a character were to find an abandoned chromatic dragon egg in the country side, could he raise it to become a good aligned dragon?
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-24-06, 10:48 PM	Er... judging from the fact that the quote from the Monster Manual doesn't answer your question, I must not be clear on what it is. Can you reword your question?
LordHawkeye 10-24-06, 10:55 PM	Anything with free will is in theory capable of going against it's normal tendencies. In practice, this is rare and often a very hard, uphill battle.
celestialkin 10-24-06, 11:03 PM	Er... judging from the fact that the quote from the Monster Manual doesn't answer your question, I must not be clear on what it is. Can you reword your question? I am sorry about that. Basically, I want to know if a creature with always next to it's alignment can completely change it, or if his natural alignment is so embedded into him that it will never completely go away (think Blade or Vampire Hunter D with their cravings). I would also like peoples opinions on how hard it would be for a character to overcome it's natural alignment in game, and on how I should role-play such a character.
runestar 10-24-06, 11:17 PM	It's possible, just very rare, and should be a constant uphill batte, and not because it woke up on the wrong side of bed or something...:P Or if a character were to find an abandoned chromatic dragon egg in the country side, could he raise it to become a good aligned dragon? Definitely plausible, LEOF has an example of a good red dragon who was raised in an elven community.:) If I were to make a demon backup character using the succubus' rules (an incubi basically), could I justify making him a good aligned character. There's that succubus paladin from some time ago...:P Heck, just go for it.:)
yrogerg 10-24-06, 11:28 PM	I am sorry about that. Basically, I want to know if a creature with always next to it's alignment can completely change it, or if his natural alignment is so embedded into him that it will never completely go away (think Blade or Vampire Hunter D with their cravings). I would also like peoples opinions on how hard it would be for a character to overcome it's natural alignment in game, and on how I should role-play such a character. Umm, it depends entirely on backstory and characterization? Honestly, the main reason people like RPing redeemed badguys like Good vampires, demons, chromatics, and so forth is that fighting against their inborn nature does make for an interesting, if oh-so-cliched, personal struggle. Whether it's a constant struggle, involves only the occasional slip, or whether the character buries it as deeply as possible (think Fall-from-Grace from Torment), is entirely up to the person playing it. But once you're talking about creatures as rare as that (since Good Always Evil creatures are supposed to be extremely rare, if not unique), I would say, all bets are off in terms of what they're "usually" like. For an illustration, look at the Warcraft III orc leaders: You have Grom Hellscream, who was one of the original orcish pact-makers, and who still feels the stir of the powerful demonic curse in his blood, and frequently gives in to his bloodlust, and then you have Thrall, who was raised by humans, and is a bit of an outsider cheiftan as a result, but who has a strong vision of 'noble warrior spirit' and of the future of the race, being removed from the previous conflict, and is able to constantly keep himself from giving in to the lusts of his race as a result. Either one makes a viable model for such a character; it depends entirely on which is more convenient for you, or which story you'd prefer to tell.
IrishRover 10-24-06, 11:39 PM	I'd say that no one, demon, devil, dragon, or angel ever completely overcomes her evil tendencies. ALL of us feel some evil urges at times--the challenge is what we do with them. It would be harder for such as the Succubus Paladin, but possible, IMHO. (The Succubus Paladin definately inspired me to try playing a redeemed--or in the process of redeeming herself--demon. So far, it's been fun.)
yrogerg 10-24-06, 11:53 PM	I'd say that no one, demon, devil, dragon, or angel ever completely overcomes her evil tendencies. ALL of us feel some evil urges at times--the challenge is what we do with them. What's interesting is that because of that, the closest I've seen in the various settings to Outsiders who fully overcome their innate nature aren't the ones who decide to switch sides, going from good to evil or evil to good; they're the ones who just decide to quit. Something -whatever it was- precipitated a decision to buck the big conflict between good and evil, give up on corrupting or destroying or whatever, and just quit, and try to live out their lives like ordinary 'people'. Slightly less cliched, equally interesting, and lots of great plot hooks, since the various other outsiders don't necessarily know (or care) that the character in question has clocked out of the big conflict. I'm not sure I'd necessarily extend outsiders' extreme alignment nature to include dragons, though.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy 10-25-06, 12:57 AM	I have seen it done....If the Demon or Dragon or whatever is older though.......regret too sets in with its own reprecussions and temptations.....definitely a good story though.....Happened to an Red Wyrm in one of my campaigns because of a wager challenge that included a deck of many things.......fun! six actual years of hardship later the other Reds still fear him because he was already well known for his evil......He became Lawful Good thus blowing their minds and more fear entered into his reputation.
RavinRay 10-25-06, 01:11 AM	If you use the Book of Exalted Deeds (meant for mature audiences only; see the age-restricted Mature Topics forum), a sanctified CG red dragon is given as an example of a sanctified creature. That Dragon article about chromatic dragon PCs mentions the possibility of good chromatic dragons, or at the very least morally neutral dragons. And, the four archdragon template varieties (chaos, evil, good, law) from another Dragon article are meant to be applied to any dragon regardless of its original alignment. And as Keith Baker takes pains to emphasize in his Eberron campaign setting, dragons do not necessarily follow their genetic predisposition. I've also seen a similar case for outsiders (heck, the winner of the first Creature Competition was the "lovely succubus paladin"). How easy is it? Depends on the Will save DC and inclination of the creature.
celestialkin 10-25-06, 05:35 AM	Thank you all for helping flesh out my last two characters. I am currently trying to improve my role-playing skills, and you guys always provide a ton of opinions, information, and experience when I post here. Out of all the suggested ways for playing a good always evil character, I feel yrogerg's idea of having him just quit the good vs. bad conflict altogether would be the most interesting for me to play. By the way, can anyone point me in the direction of the Succubus Paladin that everyone keeps talking about? And can someone please tell where I can find the archdragon templates RavinRay mentioned? Are they in The Book of Exalted Deeds as well?
BelRex 10-25-06, 07:23 AM	Looks like the archdragon template is in dragon magazine issue 321. Issue 306 has a good article about redemption. There are several good ideas on how to deal with a character that is normally evil, there are redemption DC's and temptation DC's. You can chose to use a Wisdom Check or a Will Save vs the temptation. You use the seven deadly sins(pride, greed, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth) or seven virtues(humility, love, temperance, chastity, kindness, generosity, and zeal). The Checks range from 10 to 20. Each time you fail a temptation check or succeed at a redemption check you gain a point of either one. If your temptation points equals your wisdom your alignment takes a step towards evil. If your redemption points equal your wisdom, you take a step towards evil. This is actually probably better, because it forces a player to use their character's abilities and not what they think the PC should do. For example, an evil dragon may have a harder time with greed, sloth, and gluttony than others. Feel free to add in Ad hoc modifiers of -2/+2 to the DC's, such as adding a -2 to a dragons will save vs those three sins, and perhaps a succubus has a problem with pride, wrath, and lust. They mention that higher DC's are doable, for great acts of evil or good. Anyway, off to work, will post more later if needed.
Derren S. 10-25-06, 01:05 PM	If it fits the alignment you want you could always say in your backstory that your character acidentally (or was forced to) donned a Helm of Opposite Alignment.
Teron Gorefiend 10-25-06, 01:34 PM	If you use the Book of Exalted Deeds (meant for mature audiences only; see the age-restricted Mature Topics forum), a sanctified CG red dragon is given as an example of a sanctified creature. That Dragon article about chromatic dragon PCs mentions the possibility of good chromatic dragons, or at the very least morally neutral dragons. And, the four archdragon template varieties (chaos, evil, good, law) from another Dragon article are meant to be applied to any dragon regardless of its original alignment. And as Keith Baker takes pains to emphasize in his Eberron campaign setting, dragons do not necessarily follow their genetic predisposition. I've also seen a similar case for outsiders (heck, the winner of the first Creature Competition was the "lovely succubus paladin"). How easy is it? Depends on the Will save DC and inclination of the creature. Actually, in Eberron (and it isn't technically Mr. Baker's setting, since he sold the rights to it and works as a freelancer), dragons don't have genetic predispositions at all. Their alignments, as well as those of most sentient races, are as variable as humans'.
IrishRover 10-26-06, 11:12 AM	[QUOTE=celestialkin] By the way, can anyone point me in the direction of the Succubus Paladin that everyone keeps talking about? QUOTE] Go to the D&D Home Page, and the fight club. She's in there--I like her. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
Korone 10-26-06, 01:09 PM	Chromatics dragons can, demons cannot. That succubus paladin is pure, silly crap. Dragons do not have alignment substype, so they are only slightly less likely to have random alignment. Though, demons have evil as substype, making them material representation of their alignment. This substype doesn't only affect their mentality about being 'evil', its what they are. You can't change a rock into wood or water, otherwise, it would be no rock. That succubus, if only possible, would be no more a demon.
Platonix 10-26-06, 02:24 PM	Chromatics dragons can, demons cannot. That succubus paladin is pure, silly crap. Dragons do not have alignment substype, so they are only slightly less likely to have random alignment. Though, demons have evil as substype, making them material representation of their alignment. This substype doesn't only affect their mentality about being 'evil', its what they are. You can't change a rock into wood or water, otherwise, it would be no rock. That succubus, if only possible, would be no more a demon. I agree that it should be markedly easier for a dragon than a demon, but I think it would be at least possible, though not remotely plausible, for a demon to become good-aligned. Note, however, that having a demon's alignment switch from chaotic evil to lawful good for whatever reason does not change the fact that the demon would have the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes, because they are forged from the very essence of chaos and evil even if they no longer act in accordance with these principles. With respect to magic items and spells that affect alignments, a succubus paladin could basically be considered Chaotic, Evil, Good and Lawful all at the same time, making for some interesting DM rulings about what happens when you cast, say, chaos hammer on her.
Starman IX 10-26-06, 03:07 PM	Chromatics dragons can, demons cannot. That succubus paladin is pure, silly crap. Dragons do not have alignment substype, so they are only slightly less likely to have random alignment. Though, demons have evil as substype, making them material representation of their alignment. This substype doesn't only affect their mentality about being 'evil', its what they are. You can't change a rock into wood or water, otherwise, it would be no rock. That succubus, if only possible, would be no more a demon.You play in a fantasy world where anything can happen and you don't believe one demon can turn it's back on it's heritage? Please, grow an imagination.
yrogerg 10-26-06, 03:35 PM	Actually, in Eberron (and it isn't technically Mr. Baker's setting, since he sold the rights to it and works as a freelancer), dragons don't have genetic predispositions at all. Their alignments, as well as those of most sentient races, are as variable as humans'. ::nods:: The main exception being among Outsiders, which tend to be the living embodiments of aspects of the planes themselves, and as such, retain their Always alignment (with the usual caveats of Always not always meaning always). That said, there are still even a few Outsiders who break away from that: There's a pretty interesting neutral Ultraloth presented in the Explorer's Handbook, and a TN Gaele Eladrin in Sharn: City of Towers. Eberron also provided a new creature: the Radiant Idol, which is, in essense, a Fallen Angel. So, with all due respect to Korone: Chromatics dragons can, demons cannot. That succubus paladin is pure, silly crap. Dragons do not have alignment substype, so they are only slightly less likely to have random alignment. Though, demons have evil as substype, making them material representation of their alignment. This substype doesn't only affect their mentality about being 'evil', its what they are. You can't change a rock into wood or water, otherwise, it would be no rock. That succubus, if only possible, would be no more a demon. This is, quite simply, wrong. It says so in the alignment subtype descriptions, themselves: Evil Subtype A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. (emphasis mine) So, the idea that even Alignment-subtype Outsiders can, rarely, change alignment is supported by the rules. Heck, it's also supported by rather well-known mythology: I mean, there's the story of the Grigori, which seem to be at least part of the thematic basis for Eberron's aforementioned Radiant Idols, and ever hear of a guy called Lucifer? God's best and brightest angel? I mean, come on. You couldn't possibly be trying to argue from a flavor standpoint that it's impossible for an Angel to change its wings.
yrogerg 10-26-06, 03:47 PM	Actually, in Eberron (and it isn't technically Mr. Baker's setting, since he sold the rights to it and works as a freelancer) Sure, but a lot of us like to say it's his setting, because we like to retain the illusion that he has any sort of creative control whatsoever. Seriously, even though I don't always prefer his flavor to my own homebrewery, he's one of very few writers for the setting whose work is consistently, well, good. A lot of the other writing tends to be rather hit-or-miss, and seems to miss quite a bit more often than I'd like. (Well, him and Rich Berlew, another freelancer, who came in 2nd place in the campaign setting contest that led to Eberron, and wrote significant portions of the Explorer's Handbook)
Edge_of_Oblivion 10-26-06, 07:27 PM	Chromatics dragons can, demons cannot. That succubus paladin is pure, silly crap. Dragons do not have alignment substype, so they are only slightly less likely to have random alignment. Though, demons have evil as substype, making them material representation of their alignment. This substype doesn't only affect their mentality about being 'evil', its what they are. You can't change a rock into wood or water, otherwise, it would be no rock. That succubus, if only possible, would be no more a demon. Four words. Helm Of Opposite Alignment. Add crazed wizard and lots of Greater Planar Binding, stir well. Serves four.
Korone 10-26-06, 08:40 PM	But I still find this completely retarded.
yrogerg 10-26-06, 09:29 PM	But I still find this completely retarded. Helm of Opposite Alignment, or Lucifer and the Grigori? Because, I'm with you regarding the Helm of Opposite Alignment. But otherwise... no.
RavinRay 10-26-06, 09:46 PM	Well, the Helm does it forcibly, sanctify the wicked somewhat less so, but as for voluntarily changing alignment? Can a succubus be disillusioned and make a turnabout? Maybe the larva it originally came from was not wicked enough.
Greyman 10-27-06, 02:47 AM	Well, the Helm does it forcibly, sanctify the wicked somewhat less so, but as for voluntarily changing alignment? Can a succubus be disillusioned and make a turnabout? Maybe the larva it originally came from was not wicked enough.Maybe she just saw the light. If an angel can fall, a demon can rise. Eludecia, the Succubus Paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) was redemed by love for a celestial. She attempted to seduce him into falling, but was redemed by his shining example instead. Even though redemed, she retained her aligned sub types and thus detects strongly as both Chaotic Evil and Lawful Good, and is affected by any spell that affects alignment. Magical aid could purge her of the subtypes, but she's presented as prefering to make it on her own. It's not an easy thing to do, and the villan options present her as a blackguard, fallen through greif.
HVulpes 10-27-06, 10:54 AM	It is possible to change the Alignment aspect of an Outsider (Savage Species pg. 148, Ritual of Alignment). This ritual allows you to add or change an alignment aspect of a character. And in fact for a CG Succubus it is easy to change the Evil subtype to Good. An CE Succubus can even change their alignment subtype to Good (good for evil works) but it has the ability to kill them if they fail their roll. A CN Succubus can become a Good subtype, but it is glitch. The ritual needs a Cleric of 7th Rank with the Domain of the Alignment subtype, 56,000 gp and the loss of 2,240 XP.
Naderion 10-27-06, 01:39 PM	Could a dragon change it's alignment? Well, why not.. But could a demon do it? The old planescape setting says both yes and no. :D There are some outsiders in celestia, that have been born as fiends but have been redeemed and are now good. But on the other hand, demons often just spawn from the ground of the abyss. A water elemetals body is made of water, so if you take all the water away, there's nothing left. A demons body is made of spiritual evil becoming solid. As said "anything of free will is able to change it's alignment." But are outsidres creatures of free will? Mortals are a spiritual soul in a solid body. They form a unity bot are in fact two diferent things. Outsiders are not. They are solid spirit and the solid spirit is the spiritual enrergy of the abyss, which is chaotic evil. It's much a matter of interpreatation, but if you say the outer planes are spiritual concepts become solid, outsiders shouldn't be able to change their alignment.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-27-06, 02:10 PM	With fiends and other exemplar outsiders changing alignment, if the change is honest and true, since they're physical embodiments of their alignments, they should change subtype as well to reflect the alignment change. Also, their change should be concurrent with a physical change in appearance to reflect outwardly the change in alignment, be it a risen fiend, a fall celestial, a slaadi turned to law, a rogue modron, etc. A yugoloth with the Evil subtype that wholly and utterly turns towards Good, shouldn't be affected by spells that harm evil beings, not after they've actually changed alignment. Alignment and physical nature can't be separated, and it's a pity that this has yet to be reflected in the game mechanics. Now while in terms of raw numbers and what % of them might do so, it's virtually nonexistant for true outsiders to change alignment, it does happen. There is -plenty- of precident in DnD of outsiders changing alignment, be it archons falling from law and becoming Asuras (all Asuras are Archons who fall from LG towards chaos), celestials such as Triel falling towards evil (and eventually being known as Baalzebul), or risen fiends.
celestialkin 10-27-06, 10:44 PM	[QUOTE=celestialkin] By the way, can anyone point me in the direction of the Succubus Paladin that everyone keeps talking about? QUOTE] Go to the D&D Home Page, and the fight club. She's in there--I like her. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a Thanks for the link. I liked her story, but I'm a bit disappointed that they made her turn evil again (or are those last three samples only possible outcomes/realities?). Her story has me wondering what a half-celestial/half-demon might be like statswise. But on the other hand, demons often just spawn from the ground of the abyss. A water elemetals body is made of water, so if you take all the water away, there's nothing left. A demons body is made of spiritual evil becoming solid. As said "anything of free will is able to change it's alignment." But are outsidres creatures of free will? Mortals are a spiritual soul in a solid body. They form a unity bot are in fact two diferent things. Outsiders are not. They are solid spirit and the solid spirit is the spiritual enrergy of the abyss, which is chaotic evil. With fiends and other exemplar outsiders changing alignment, if the change is honest and true, since they're physical embodiments of their alignments, they should change subtype as well to reflect the alignment change. Also, their change should be concurrent with a physical change in appearance to reflect outwardly the change in alignment, be it a risen fiend, a fall celestial, a slaadi turned to law, a rogue modron, etc. If outsiders are nothing but the manifestations of spiritual concepts, wouldn't changing their alignments, lets say from evil to good, just make them outsiders of their new alignment's outer plane? For example, would a demon (a creature made up of pure evil) who changes his alignment from CE to LG become a celestial (a creature made up of pure good) in the process? I know that it's not likely, but the idea seems interesting.
DrakeRunner 10-27-06, 11:04 PM	Now while in terms of raw numbers and what % of them might do so, it's virtually nonexistant for true outsiders to change alignment, it does happen. There is -plenty- of precident in DnD of outsiders changing alignment, be it archons falling from law and becoming Asuras (all Asuras are Archons who fall from LG towards chaos), celestials such as Triel falling towards evil (and eventually being known as Baalzebul), or risen fiends. Outer Planes are finite infinity: Yes. Outsiders, while capable of death, are considered to be infinite, else there would have been some serious balance tipping of the Great Wheel due to extensive combat. Virtually nonexistent percentage of infinity = Suddenly very existent.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-27-06, 11:35 PM	If outsiders are nothing but the manifestations of spiritual concepts, wouldn't changing their alignments, lets say from evil to good, just make them outsiders of their new alignment's outer plane? For example, would a demon (a creature made up of pure evil) who changes his alignment from CE to LG become a celestial (a creature made up of pure good) in the process? An archon who became CG wouldn't become an Eladrin no, nor would it be likely that a yugoloth who became N would become a Rilmani. The various alignments don't all have a single conception, and some of the planes have, or have had, different true outsiders that represent different aspects of that plane's alignment [For instance there are Hordelings and Yugoloths on the Waste, the 'loths being NE formed directly from the plane, and the hordelings are a more mortal influenced NE formed from larvae/petitioners; and there are Rilmani and Kameral on the Outlands, etc]. That said, an outsider that truly changes alignment wouldn't become another pre-existant type of outsider, they'd become something more unique based on their original type and what they then transition into most likely. I'd like to say something about something I wrote for Dragon magazine, but it hasn't been printed yet, and I don't know about the edits it might get, but it's tangentially relevant to the topic.
celestialkin 10-28-06, 10:29 AM	I'd like to say something about something I wrote for Dragon magazine, but it hasn't been printed yet, and I don't know about the edits it might get, but it's tangentially relevant to the topic. Do you know what issue of Dragon it will appear in? I'd like to buy it when it comes out if it somewhat relates to this.
Ogre4Hire 10-28-06, 11:11 AM	Shemeska wrote an article for Dragon?:drool: As far as Outsiders changing moral or ethical alignments go: It happens rarely, but it's far more common among chaotic outsiders than lawful ones. Since Chaos is all about random changes, it should come at no surprise that it's much more common for a Tanar'ri to suddenly turn good than a Baatizu (both due to the inherent randomness of the Tanar'ri's nature and the fact that the rigid Infernal Bureaucracy of the Baatizu keeps a sharp eye out for anyone who doesn't seem quite Evil or Lawful enough.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-28-06, 11:19 AM	Shemeska wrote an article for Dragon?:drool: I've got a pair of submitted articles in the pipeline, but I can't say when they're likely to see print. Any connection to the topic in the thread is entirely tangential however, but otherwise I won't say much else till they're mentioned in a next month preview in the magazine, etc. One should be part of the next campaign classics issue next year, but I'm not sure if the month for that is set yet.
Platonix 10-28-06, 01:16 PM	That said, an outsider that truly changes alignment wouldn't become another pre-existant type of outsider, they'd become something more unique based on their original type and what they then transition into most likely. True enough. Just look at, not only Baalzebul and Merikel, but also the entire race of Erinyes.
Janus_Walcott 10-28-06, 01:39 PM	I liked her story, but I'm a bit disappointed that they made her turn evil again (or are those last three samples only possible outcomes/realities?). I'm pretty sure they are.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-28-06, 03:32 PM	True enough. Just look at, not only Baalzebul and Merikel, but also the entire race of Erinyes. For what it's worth though, Erinyes aren't actually fallen celestials. Though that rumor is randomly tossed out in the 3.5 MM, Erinyes arise exclusively via the promotion of Abishai or Kocrachons. Given how Baatezu form and create more of themselves, t's an ironclad bet to say that no Erinyes was ever directly formed from a fallen celestial. Any fallen celestial or other outsider that becomes LE and seeks to join the orthodox Baatezu ranks, you'll be starting at lemure status and working your way up from there. I could see Baatezu using what vague similarities Erinyes have with some mortal conceptions of celestials to their advantage though. Even if it's entirely false, if some mortal wants to think the beautiful being with wings is really a celestial, or if some evil mortal will respect or fear a fallen celestial more than a fiend, they'll use the lie to their advantage. Baatezu are nothing if not practical.
Naderion 10-28-06, 04:49 PM	IF Erinyes are fallen angels, a baatezu would never become on during his normal evolution through baatezu-forms, so they could not be baatezu. But in the MM3.5 they are. IF they are baatezu, they are part of the normal chain of baatezu-forms, so they cannot be fallen angels.
Part-Human2 10-28-06, 05:43 PM	If it's a player character yes. If it makes the game fun or interesting a DM can make a Good Demon. These should be the exception unless the DM really wants to change the game world. The players than should know that Good demons & Chromatic Dragons are possible.
Ogre4Hire 10-29-06, 01:39 AM	Just as long as there's a senseable limit on the number of risen fiends and dragons running around. The last thing we need is to turn Yugoloths into the next Drow:D coughDrizztcough
HolyGrenadeFrenzy 10-29-06, 01:49 PM	[QUOTE=IrishRover] Thanks for the link. I liked her story, but I'm a bit disappointed that they made her turn evil again (or are those last three samples only possible outcomes/realities?). Her story has me wondering what a half-celestial/half-demon might be like statswise. If outsiders are nothing but the manifestations of spiritual concepts, wouldn't changing their alignments, lets say from evil to good, just make them outsiders of their new alignment's outer plane? For example, would a demon (a creature made up of pure evil) who changes his alignment from CE to LG become a celestial (a creature made up of pure good) in the process? I know that it's not likely, but the idea seems interesting. I myself appreciate the concept immensely....I have used the rules governing this change on several occasions over the years for various reasons......and this question is one I have considered....and the answer can be found in Savage Species....the only way for a former fiend to become one of the celestial races is to earn it with experience...... The succubus paladin is not a new concept to me even if it is to D&D Fight Club ....I have a suggestion though for former fiends that gain levels in paladin or such things...finding a way to gain the spellfire feat and gaining levels in Spellfire Channeller recks fiends both in Hell and the Abyss....a High level Succubus Paladin/Spellfire Channeller can in an epic campaign clear levels of the abyss out of fiends......I know this first hand.....pick a lower level like 641...Granted normally it can only be gained at 1st level....so unless the PC or NPC is being played from first level this becomes difficult without anomalies like temporal magic or such......however it is possible and because it is possible ...consider this...A spellfire wielding succubus may very well be more likely to convert do to the lack of fear of its fiendish supperiors and the possiblity of seeing the logic/reason in goodness becomes interesting if story is in play and not just power argument/discussions.....the NPC I am refering too has a lengthy history in my campaign that I not sharing at this time but I appreciate the primary ascended succubus paladin concept making it to fight club and here.........perhaps I will share "The Scourge of 641's" story sometime as the T'aanari refer to her.
asurademon 10-30-06, 03:28 AM	well, there are other examples of non-evil demons, like Fall from Grace from Planescape: Torment, I actually really liked that character. However I myself am more a fan of the idea, that when an outsider does change its alignment, it's transformed into something else, thus an celestial could fall and become a demon, and a demon could redeem and become a celestial. But then again that gives rise to the question of what a demon would become if it became, for example lawful neutral, would a succubus that became lawful neutral become a modron? That would just be goofy I think. So I guess dealing with the effects of alignment change on outsiders is best when done on a case by case basis. I did play a lawful good succubi at one point, but it was a mortal whom was cursed to become a demon, and I planned on her eventually giving into her chaotic evil nature.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy 03-24-07, 02:32 AM	well, there are other examples of non-evil demons, like Fall from Grace from Planescape: Torment, I actually really liked that character. However I myself am more a fan of the idea, that when an outsider does change its alignment, it's transformed into something else, thus an celestial could fall and become a demon, and a demon could redeem and become a celestial. But then again that gives rise to the question of what a demon would become if it became, for example lawful neutral, would a succubus that became lawful neutral become a modron? That would just be goofy I think. So I guess dealing with the effects of alignment change on outsiders is best when done on a case by case basis. I did play a lawful good succubi at one point, but it was a mortal whom was cursed to become a demon, and I planned on her eventually giving into her chaotic evil nature. I think the reverse would be interesting as well.... A demon cursed to become mortal and then becoming lawful Good just for a nice twist in the fabric so to speak. Edit:Wait that would make the character a Sc*******ist but in reverse too.:confused: Well there I went and did it again and talked myself into a circle with no circumference and a difficult center to find. :confused:
Andyr 03-24-07, 02:46 PM	For what it's worth though, Erinyes aren't actually fallen celestials. Though that rumor is randomly tossed out in the 3.5 MM, Erinyes arise exclusively via the promotion of Abishai or Kocrachons. Given how Baatezu form and create more of themselves, t's an ironclad bet to say that no Erinyes was ever directly formed from a fallen celestial. To reconcile the rumours, I'd suggest that perhaps some fallen celestials did become the first Erinyes--or at least proto-Erinyes--and that form was found useful by Asmodeus, and so assimilated into the Baatezu hierarchy to teach its own lesson about Law and Evil.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-24-07, 04:34 PM	To reconcile the rumours, I'd suggest that perhaps some fallen celestials did become the first Erinyes--or at least proto-Erinyes--and that form was found useful by Asmodeus, and so assimilated into the Baatezu hierarchy to teach its own lesson about Law and Evil. I wrote my earlier statement before FC:II had come out. Assuming that there's a nugget of truth buried somewhere in the mythology of FC:II, it's now plausible to assume that first proto-Erinyes were fallen LN beings (not celestials, becuase the period we're talking about predated the emergence of the known LG celestials, and the NG celestials weren't involved in the events detailed in FC:II). The modern erinyes as a caste of Baatezu are eons descended from those original progenitors.