Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lonewolf 09-21-07, 04:30 PM	Here's a bit of an oddity of a rules question: Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + ghost’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target’s body. By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. So - outsiders do not have a dual nature. Can they be affected by Magic Jar and/or a ghosts Malevolence ability?
lonewolf 09-22-07, 02:49 AM	anyone?
Witch 09-22-07, 06:57 AM	I don't claim to have solid mechanical evidence on this, but I would argue by virtue of flavor that no, this does not function.
Part-Human2 09-22-07, 12:52 PM	Yes it works. A ghost can use Malevolence on other undead or even constructs. Note that Malevolence doesn't move a victim's soul anywhere anyways (there is no receptacle).
Witch 09-22-07, 01:03 PM	Yes it works. A ghost can use Malevolence on other undead or even constructs. Note that Malevolence doesn't move a victim's soul anywhere anyways (there is no receptacle). Let me explain. With an outsider, soul and body are the same thing. So if you are possessing its body, you're actually possessing its soul. This does not make sense.
Slagger the Chuul 09-22-07, 01:35 PM	Let me explain. With an outsider, soul and body are the same thing. So if you are possessing its body, you're actually possessing its soul. This does not make sense. Why not? Where is it written that you can't possess a soul?
locustechpriest 09-22-07, 02:14 PM	Where is it written that you can't possess a soul? Where it refers to Magic Jar. You need to displace the soul (let's ignore for the moment where the soul goes... say it "goes to sleep"). There is no soul. Nothing is displaced, ergo nothing is controlled. Does that make some sense? Where the soul and body are one, the control mechanism is the controlled apparatus. Removing one removes the other. I agree with Witch on this one. This also somewhat limits the (absurdly powerful) Magic Jar spell. No more outsiders, oozes, dumb plants, constructs, dumb undead... sentient plants and undead are still applicable though, I think.
DebiHuman 09-22-07, 04:48 PM	The simplest way to rule this is: Since an outsider does not have a dual [its physical body and soul are the same], it therefore cannot be separated by either a magic jar spell or by a ghost's malevolence. Since "spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider" [from SRD], it is probably safe to assume that spells that remove a soul from an outsider don't work either. That would be the simplest way, but it is not the only way. You could also rule that anyone who successfully managed to cast magic jar on an outsider, would kill iit because removing the soul from an outsider kills it. With a ghost's malevolence, if the ghost can simply move into the outsider's space and take possession -- even with the outsider's soul there. Of course, many outsiders would thwart the ghost on a successful Will save, but that could be rather fun actually. I wonder how often outsiders and ghosts come into conflict.... Debby
lonewolf 09-22-07, 05:21 PM	I wonder how often outsiders and ghosts come into conflict.... well, in the CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=483) anything can happen. Thanks for the replies. There seems to be a near consensus that Magic Jar shouldnt work on Outsiders and all of those except debby believe that thus Malevolence also shouldnt work. @Debby: any reason why you think Malevolence should be different? Thanks again. lonewolf
DebiHuman 09-22-07, 08:11 PM	Because technically the outsider's soul doesn't have to go anywhere when the ghost takes possession. There would be both souls in the body and if the outsider fails the save, the ghost takes possession of the body (presumably with the outsider's soul still there but completely ineffectual). That's just one interpretation. As I said earlier this is just one interpretion. Ultimately, the decision resides with the DM. Debby