Can a Lich heal himself? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a Lich heal himself? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
forkboy137
03-30-06, 03:26 PM Greetings!

Quick question for you:

A Lich has a touch attack that deals negative energy damage. As an undead creature, the Lich is healed by negative energy. Can a Lich use his touch attack to heal himself?

Thanks in advance for the help!
Sarlax
03-30-06, 03:54 PM A Lich has a touch attack that deals negative energy damage. As an undead creature, the Lich is healed by negative energy. Can a Lich use his touch attack to heal himself?
A lich ought to be able to do so. Such exceptions are normally called out in the rules.

Even if there's a ruling somewhere or in the future that says no, they still heal over time, as all intelligent undead naturally do.
LordofNightmares
03-30-06, 04:06 PM I would rule tht their Negative Energy touch cannot heal them, that is way to broken at their given CR, but other negative energy spells that "heal" undead should work perfectly fine.
WeZil
03-30-06, 04:31 PM This COULD be confusion chalked up to vague phrases and different interpretations, so lets look at it this way.

A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + ½ lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.

I've bolded the part that says "Living creature." Undead, while animate and, in some cases, sentient, aren't living creatures. They're among the dead, and most abilities don't specify "living" unless there's a purpose. Further more, lets look at Inflict Wounds

When laying your hand upon a creature, you channel negative energy that deals 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it.

Here it specifies its effects on the undead and reffers only to "creatures," not living creatures.

Logically speaking too, I would say no. For one thing, the energy has to come from somewhere, and while it doesn't HARM the lich to use it, it certainly wouldn't do much other than make the energy flow through yourself. not to mention for balance reasons, I'd say no.
General_Ridley
03-30-06, 05:54 PM 'course, it says it does 1d8 + 5 damage to living creatures.

It's a DM call.

Imagine though, you're fighting the lich.

You: I attack with my greatsword... 18 damage
DM: The lich touches himself.
Mercurius
03-30-06, 06:05 PM By the wording of the ability, it would seem that the Lich cannot gain healing from his touch. I would even venture to guess that this is the intent. The ability to have infinite healing would be pretty powerful, and consider that lichdom is a potential option for PCs, too.

Going non-core for a minute, the best way for a lich to heal themselves is with a pair of feats from Complete Arcane - Energy Substitution (cold) and Lord of the Uttercold. This potent combination makes any spell that deals cold damage (to which the lich is immune) deal half cold and half negative energy damage, which it specifically calls out heals undead. A lich with these feats could drop a cold-substituted fireball onto himself and heal 5d6 points of damage while his opponents in a 20' radius took 5d6 cold/5d6 negative energy damage. It's a nasty combination.
Dench
03-30-06, 08:04 PM I'd say yes to that rule. It's negative energy damage, after all, and since undead are healed by negative energy damage, it's very ok to me.

Of course, as a DM, I do not allow players to convert into liches, unless the campaigns allows to.
obrysii
03-30-06, 08:12 PM I say yes as well, as it deals "negative energy" damage, which conviently heals Liches.

It also would be useful to heal their undead companions.
Feor
03-30-06, 09:50 PM By RAW, yes, he could probably heal himself.

By logic, he'd be expending his own negative energy to try and infuse himself with negative energy. It'd be like using your own blood to make a healing potion for yourself. So logically, I'd say no, no self healing.
Kyuketsukiouji
03-30-06, 10:12 PM If it says it only works on living creatures, then I see no reason to say "yes" to this.

Note that it also means that it won't work on constructs, who are not living creatures.
Sarlax
04-02-06, 03:53 PM You: I attack with my greatsword... 18 damage
DM: The lich touches himself.
That's exactly why the ability isn't unbalanced for the lich as a monster. It's a terrible idea to try for 13 points of healing at best and probably 9 points of healing when there's a party of four undead-hating adventurers around you.

A lich is at least CR 13 (or 11, if you're dealing with an artificer). By that time, a group of PCs can deal out much more damage than the lich could ever hope to heal with by its negative energy touch. It's best bet would be to Teleport out and fight another day. The end result is that the healing from the touch would not change the outcome of the encounter, since the lich can't safely use it.

For a PC, I don't think it would shift the balance, either. The lich is a pretty tough sell a LA +4 as it is. Being able to heal slightly faster isn't that huge. Yes, it does mean a lich is fully healed before most encounters, but for a 15th-level party, the PCs are pulling that feat off anyway.
meatrace
04-02-06, 08:38 PM I would rule tht their Negative Energy touch cannot heal them, that is way to broken at their given CR, but other negative energy spells that "heal" undead should work perfectly fine.

really? you're running into some otherwise weak-ass liches then. if the BEST thing a lich can do in a round is heal himself of (maybe) 10 points od damage then you've already got him beat.
Grunj
04-02-06, 08:56 PM In the description for Energy Drain on page 308 of the Monster Manual it states that the "creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative energy level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of one hour."

Based upon the above, I'd say no. The lich isn't draining energy levels, just hit points. Now, there is no reason why that same lich can't have a Wand of Inflict Moderate Wounds handy, however. Inflict Wound spells do restore hit points to undead.
Sarlax
04-03-06, 02:58 AM The lich isn't draining energy levels, just hit points.
The lich isn't draining hit points. It's dealing damage with negative energy, which heals undead.
Witch
04-03-06, 07:29 AM By RAW, I would allow it.
By logic: no. Using your own negative energy to heal yourself is weird to say the least.

For balance: It wouldn't be really unbalancing. A lich will be casting spells, not healing himself for 13 max.
Dench
04-03-06, 09:08 PM Anyway, a party of adventurers of at least 10th level that confront a Lich can deal more than 13 dmg in a single round. Even if you allow the lich to heal himself I don't think that the Lich is going to do that in his round. It will run, cast devastating spells or anything else, but It'll not take the risk to heal 13 hp as max. If anything, it will use it to heal itself when it is safe or away from battle.
Red_Rabbit
04-03-06, 11:52 PM I'd have to say I'd rather let the Adventurers Kill me and send me back to my phylary and heal myself up there before i do it in combat, but yes I'd let it heal the lich up to.

The Rabbit

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
forkboy137 03-30-06, 03:26 PM	Greetings! Quick question for you: A Lich has a touch attack that deals negative energy damage. As an undead creature, the Lich is healed by negative energy. Can a Lich use his touch attack to heal himself? Thanks in advance for the help!
Sarlax 03-30-06, 03:54 PM	A Lich has a touch attack that deals negative energy damage. As an undead creature, the Lich is healed by negative energy. Can a Lich use his touch attack to heal himself? A lich ought to be able to do so. Such exceptions are normally called out in the rules. Even if there's a ruling somewhere or in the future that says no, they still heal over time, as all intelligent undead naturally do.
LordofNightmares 03-30-06, 04:06 PM	I would rule tht their Negative Energy touch cannot heal them, that is way to broken at their given CR, but other negative energy spells that "heal" undead should work perfectly fine.
WeZil 03-30-06, 04:31 PM	This COULD be confusion chalked up to vague phrases and different interpretations, so lets look at it this way. A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + ½ lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack. I've bolded the part that says "Living creature." Undead, while animate and, in some cases, sentient, aren't living creatures. They're among the dead, and most abilities don't specify "living" unless there's a purpose. Further more, lets look at Inflict Wounds When laying your hand upon a creature, you channel negative energy that deals 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it. Here it specifies its effects on the undead and reffers only to "creatures," not living creatures. Logically speaking too, I would say no. For one thing, the energy has to come from somewhere, and while it doesn't HARM the lich to use it, it certainly wouldn't do much other than make the energy flow through yourself. not to mention for balance reasons, I'd say no.
General_Ridley 03-30-06, 05:54 PM	'course, it says it does 1d8 + 5 damage to living creatures. It's a DM call. Imagine though, you're fighting the lich. You: I attack with my greatsword... 18 damage DM: The lich touches himself.
Mercurius 03-30-06, 06:05 PM	By the wording of the ability, it would seem that the Lich cannot gain healing from his touch. I would even venture to guess that this is the intent. The ability to have infinite healing would be pretty powerful, and consider that lichdom is a potential option for PCs, too. Going non-core for a minute, the best way for a lich to heal themselves is with a pair of feats from Complete Arcane - Energy Substitution (cold) and Lord of the Uttercold. This potent combination makes any spell that deals cold damage (to which the lich is immune) deal half cold and half negative energy damage, which it specifically calls out heals undead. A lich with these feats could drop a cold-substituted fireball onto himself and heal 5d6 points of damage while his opponents in a 20' radius took 5d6 cold/5d6 negative energy damage. It's a nasty combination.
Dench 03-30-06, 08:04 PM	I'd say yes to that rule. It's negative energy damage, after all, and since undead are healed by negative energy damage, it's very ok to me. Of course, as a DM, I do not allow players to convert into liches, unless the campaigns allows to.
obrysii 03-30-06, 08:12 PM	I say yes as well, as it deals "negative energy" damage, which conviently heals Liches. It also would be useful to heal their undead companions.
Feor 03-30-06, 09:50 PM	By RAW, yes, he could probably heal himself. By logic, he'd be expending his own negative energy to try and infuse himself with negative energy. It'd be like using your own blood to make a healing potion for yourself. So logically, I'd say no, no self healing.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-30-06, 10:12 PM	If it says it only works on living creatures, then I see no reason to say "yes" to this. Note that it also means that it won't work on constructs, who are not living creatures.
Sarlax 04-02-06, 03:53 PM	You: I attack with my greatsword... 18 damage DM: The lich touches himself. That's exactly why the ability isn't unbalanced for the lich as a monster. It's a terrible idea to try for 13 points of healing at best and probably 9 points of healing when there's a party of four undead-hating adventurers around you. A lich is at least CR 13 (or 11, if you're dealing with an artificer). By that time, a group of PCs can deal out much more damage than the lich could ever hope to heal with by its negative energy touch. It's best bet would be to Teleport out and fight another day. The end result is that the healing from the touch would not change the outcome of the encounter, since the lich can't safely use it. For a PC, I don't think it would shift the balance, either. The lich is a pretty tough sell a LA +4 as it is. Being able to heal slightly faster isn't that huge. Yes, it does mean a lich is fully healed before most encounters, but for a 15th-level party, the PCs are pulling that feat off anyway.
meatrace 04-02-06, 08:38 PM	I would rule tht their Negative Energy touch cannot heal them, that is way to broken at their given CR, but other negative energy spells that "heal" undead should work perfectly fine. really? you're running into some otherwise weak-ass liches then. if the BEST thing a lich can do in a round is heal himself of (maybe) 10 points od damage then you've already got him beat.
Grunj 04-02-06, 08:56 PM	In the description for Energy Drain on page 308 of the Monster Manual it states that the "creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative energy level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of one hour." Based upon the above, I'd say no. The lich isn't draining energy levels, just hit points. Now, there is no reason why that same lich can't have a Wand of Inflict Moderate Wounds handy, however. Inflict Wound spells do restore hit points to undead.
Sarlax 04-03-06, 02:58 AM	The lich isn't draining energy levels, just hit points. The lich isn't draining hit points. It's dealing damage with negative energy, which heals undead.
Witch 04-03-06, 07:29 AM	By RAW, I would allow it. By logic: no. Using your own negative energy to heal yourself is weird to say the least. For balance: It wouldn't be really unbalancing. A lich will be casting spells, not healing himself for 13 max.
Dench 04-03-06, 09:08 PM	Anyway, a party of adventurers of at least 10th level that confront a Lich can deal more than 13 dmg in a single round. Even if you allow the lich to heal himself I don't think that the Lich is going to do that in his round. It will run, cast devastating spells or anything else, but It'll not take the risk to heal 13 hp as max. If anything, it will use it to heal itself when it is safe or away from battle.
Red_Rabbit 04-03-06, 11:52 PM	I'd have to say I'd rather let the Adventurers Kill me and send me back to my phylary and heal myself up there before i do it in combat, but yes I'd let it heal the lich up to. The Rabbit