Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kilos 05-14-07, 02:38 AM	I was wondering can a Warlock make a phylactery and become a lich? What do you guys think?
runestar 05-14-07, 02:45 AM	No in theory, since he is not a spellcaster. He can craft the phylactery, but cannot undergo the ritual. But in your game, just slap on the template and get it over and done with.:D
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 02:49 AM	Hmmm. Since it doesn't specifically mention what spells one would need to be a lich, and the warlock as the ability to create magical items and effects without actually casting the necessary spells... I would say it is most definitely possible to rule in a warlock-lich. Cheers.
runestar 05-14-07, 02:59 AM	I am not sure how you would interpret the "must be able to cast spells" clause though...:P
Verdande 05-14-07, 03:01 AM	Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. So no, not really, since he technically does not cast spells. But who cares? I think a warlock-lich could be seriously, seriously cool, so go for it. I'd certainly allow it. :)
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:02 AM	haha, maybe you're right. I was just running with the whole Imbue Item thing
Warforged Goblin 05-14-07, 02:13 PM	In the same vein, you could also have an artificer lich running around.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 02:19 PM	true, which defeats the argument.
Prak, the Mad 05-14-07, 02:25 PM	I think their imbue item and deceive item abilites could work well enough, I'd certainly allow it.
JLaurHughes 05-14-07, 02:36 PM	So no, not really, since he technically does not cast spells. But who cares? I think a warlock-lich could be seriously, seriously cool, so go for it. I'd certainly allow it. :) Warlocks are a fine line of magic, no they cannot but if they take just one level of Wizard, Sorcerer or other spell caster, they will meet the prerequisites.
Prak, the Mad 05-14-07, 02:41 PM	or possibly even just a PrC that gives spellcasting/invoking levels, though that's iffy...
vardock 05-14-07, 02:41 PM	if you check all materal on warlocks, they can become Liches. quaifing for a lich template is like qualifing for a prestige class. and according to the complete arcane the warlock qualifies for prestige classe requirements based on caster level. and I do not think that the plylicathery has any prerequisite spells.
Phantom 05-14-07, 02:43 PM	I do not have my books with me her at work, so I cannot check the requirements. But I believe the Warlock should be able to qualify for the Lichfiend template from Libris Mortis.
Prak, the Mad 05-14-07, 02:45 PM	I do not have my books with me her at work, so I cannot check the requirements. But I believe the Warlock should be able to qualify for the Lichfiend template from Libris Mortis. actually, yeah, that could work, because that talks about using spell likes to qualify, doesn't it?
DracoPhoenix 05-14-07, 02:49 PM	Well, the C.Arc says the Lock's abilities are spell like, but are not actual spells. They can benefit from spell-like metamagics. They are subject to ASF and can treat "+1 existing level of arcane spellcasting class" as +1 lock level. So it looks that although they are explicitly not arcane spells (as in spell slots), the class is designed to be an "arcane" casting class. (P.7, 8, 18 C.Arc) Edit: Whoops. Just noticed this in the other column (p.18): "A warlock cannot qualify for a prestige class with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells." That said, it goes on to infer (so please read your copy - also p.72 : Caster level), that the "casting requirements" bit above seems to refer to "must be able to cast X" type requirements, but caster level X would be ok. Now looking at the description of the phylactery, where it says "must be able to cast spells", but otherwise refers to casting levels (also, that wizards, sorcs and clerics are the norm for lichdom), I'd be incline to say that the Lock can be a lich. It meets all the other criteria, is considered an "arcane" class with the exception that it uses invocations as opposed to spell slots. If anything the warlock is along the same lines as the sorc.
Phantom 05-14-07, 02:53 PM	actually, yeah, that could work, because that talks about using spell likes to qualify, doesn't it? Yes. It talks about using spell like abilities (and creating the phylactery) to qualify.
Millennium 05-14-07, 03:09 PM	The wording of RAW is ambiguous on this, and so it's going to require some interpretation either way. Honestly, I would probably say no, but stat out a lich-like template that warlocks could use as an alternative (much like the dracolich is for dragons). I'd make it roughly even with the lich in terms of power, but with more of an "undying servant of darkness" theme to its powers than the typical "ancient necromantic evil" that liches tend to fall into.
AlanBruce 05-14-07, 04:57 PM	If the warlock really wanted to achieve lichdom, I believe he would first have to take at least 11 levels in one of the three lich related spellcasting classes (cleric, sorcerer, or wizard). Once that hurdle is out of the way, craft the phylactery, proceed with the ritual, go lich. After that, you may begin to progress your warlock levels while having 11 levels of the any of the 3 aforementioned classes AND lich abilities. It's a long and hard road, but ultimately very rewarding, since it's pretty much a warlock that, if played intelligently, will never die/be destroyed once he goes Lich.
JLaurHughes 05-14-07, 05:31 PM	Warlocks do not need to prepare spells ahead of time, however for effects related to caster level the warlock qualifies. An 11th level warlock is an effective CL11 character and thus only needs one level of an arcane/divine caster class(this includes bards, clerics, druids, wizard/sorcerer, wu jen, or other similar class). A 10th level Warlock with 1 level of any of the above mentioned classes has an effective caster level of 11. Read Pages 6-7 & 18 of the Complete Arcane for more clarification. The warlock still needs to make the phylactery and hide it safely away like all good lich's do.
Slagger the Chuul 05-14-07, 09:46 PM	I do not have my books with me her at work, so I cannot check the requirements. But I believe the Warlock should be able to qualify for the Lichfiend template from Libris Mortis. It would work if the warlock is an evil outsider (according to the variant, a lichfiend is an evil outsider). A regular humanoid warlock would not normally qualify.
Phantom 05-14-07, 10:23 PM	It would work if the warlock is an evil outsider (according to the variant, a lichfiend is an evil outsider). A regular humanoid warlock would not normally qualify. But a Bariaur, Neraphim (LA+0), Shadowswyft, Tiefling etc. would work.
strenoth 05-15-07, 10:51 AM	Warlocks do not need to prepare spells ahead of time, however for effects related to caster level the warlock qualifies. An 11th level warlock is an effective CL11 character and thus only needs one level of an arcane/divine caster class(this includes bards, clerics, druids, wizard/sorcerer, wu jen, or other similar class). A 10th level Warlock with 1 level of any of the above mentioned classes has an effective caster level of 11. Read Pages 6-7 & 18 of the Complete Arcane for more clarification. The warlock still needs to make the phylactery and hide it safely away like all good lich's do. No, he'd have a caster level of 10 for warlock abilities, and a caster level of 1 for the spell casting class. Warlock 11/[caster class]1 for the trick you are describing.
vardock 05-15-07, 12:00 PM	A 10th level Warlock with 1 level of any of the above mentioned classes has an effective caster level of 11. That is so wrong. Are you :looloo: ? he would have a caster level of 10 in warlock and 1 in the other class. levels in multiple spell casting classes to not stack for caster level. WHERE THE HELL DID YOU GET THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????? ???????????
Ace_of_time 05-15-07, 12:08 PM	If the warlock really wanted to achieve lichdom, I believe he would first have to take at least 11 levels in one of the three lich related spellcasting classes (cleric, sorcerer, or wizard). Once that hurdle is out of the way, craft the phylactery, proceed with the ritual, go lich. After that, you may begin to progress your warlock levels while having 11 levels of the any of the 3 aforementioned classes AND lich abilities. It's a long and hard road, but ultimately very rewarding, since it's pretty much a warlock that, if played intelligently, will never die/be destroyed once he goes Lich. If he took practiced spell caster feat he could do it with 7 levels. Also what race is he/she.
Prak, the Mad 05-15-07, 01:44 PM	If he took practiced spell caster feat he could do it with 7 levels. Also what race is he/she. well, Warlock7/Asn(or blackguard, or w/e)4 and practiced spellcaster, PS doesn't raise your cl above you HD.
AlanBruce 05-15-07, 02:02 PM	If he took practiced spell caster feat he could do it with 7 levels. Also what race is he/she. Good point. The OP never mentioned a specific race. I was thinking of a human in my example. I imagine that with Practiced Spellcaster he could attain lichdom earlier. Still, I believe that if a warlock wants to pull off this trick, he'd be better off having a solid repertoire of arcane spells to support his SLA. In the event the aforementioned character went human lich wiz11/warlock6, for instance, this guy would be a serious pain for many parties. Prior to combat: raise entropic warding, fell flight, flee the scene, and see the unseen (these are assumed to be cast at the beggining of each day, having a 24 hour duration). On top of that, let's cast Greater Mage Armor, Shield, PfG, and invisibility Surprise round: Evard's Black Tentacles, roll initiative Round 1: flee the scene at considerable distance from grappled party and ready eldritch blasts against any caster who would try a silent or stilled spell (or any spell without somatics, for that matter). Round 2 and following: Proceed to blast party with empowered AOE evocations, and applying crush damage from the tentacles as necessary. If the party manages to break free, flee the scene to a concealed area and then teleport away to safety.
ChampionofRajaat 05-15-07, 02:59 PM	Of topic slightly but could a Warlocks extraplanar patron turn him/her in a lich?
Ace_of_time 05-15-07, 04:09 PM	well, Warlock7/Asn(or blackguard, or w/e)4 and practiced spellcaster, PS doesn't raise your cl above you HD. I was saying that if he just wanted to be a lich than he could gain & level in any class that has caster level. The best two would be wizard for spells and cleric for undead rebuking. Plus their is a undead leader ship feat that lets you take undead cohorts if the DM allows it. If he is a Dragon type race then he could be a dracolich. You just have to be Adult dragon and drink the poisoned potion. Note: that your ex has a HD of 11=4+7. the problem is warlock has no caster level and PS only allows +4 bonus.
Banatine 05-15-07, 06:39 PM	It would work if the warlock is an evil outsider (according to the variant, a lichfiend is an evil outsider). A regular humanoid warlock would not normally qualify. I would say that in the spirit of the template, since warlocks are the closest thing to fiends that any natural human is going to get, that they are fiend enough to qualify
Ace_of_time 05-15-07, 09:11 PM	I seen some where a monster class for a lich like PC but don't remember where.
Masker 05-15-07, 09:20 PM	It becomes quite easy when you factor in the Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch theurge PRCs in Complete Mage. That is a nice way to keep gaining spells and invocations before going skeletal.
MagnaSecuris 05-15-07, 09:33 PM	AlanBruce, are you dense? Your Wiz11/War6 is stupid. He may as well have gone strait Wiz. The point of this thread is to get (mostly) Warlock into Lichdom. Which is done with [arcane caster]1/Warlock10+. Of course a Wizard lich will be a problem for most parties. Wizards are really powerful.
Ace_of_time 05-15-07, 09:44 PM	AlanBruce, are you dense? Your Wiz11/War6 is stupid. He may as well have gone strait Wiz. The point of this thread is to get (mostly) Warlock into Lichdom. Which is done with [arcane caster]1/Warlock10+. Of course a Wizard lich will be a problem for most parties. Wizards are really powerful. Arcane spellcaster7/ warlock10 and with PS feat gives him lichdom. It doesn't matter which one you use just pick one. If all he wants is to be a lich this is the easiest way and is stil mostly warlock.
MagnaSecuris 05-15-07, 10:46 PM	"Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher.The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation." Warlock advances caster level. Any spellcasting class grants the ability to cast spells. Therefore, assuming he has the necessary gp, a Warlock 10/ Wizard 1 can become a lich, having an arcane caster level of 11. If you're unsure about stacking arcane caster levels, then enter at level Warlock 11/ Wizard 1. That's all there is to it.
Masker 05-15-07, 11:06 PM	Still, it may be better to use one of the Eldritch class. If you are going to have a spellcasting class, better make it useful.
strenoth 05-15-07, 11:08 PM	Warlock advances caster level. Any spellcasting class grants the ability to cast spells. Therefore, assuming he has the necessary gp, a Warlock 10/ Wizard 1 can become a lich, having an arcane caster level of 11. If you're unsure about stacking arcane caster levels, then enter at level Warlock 11/ Wizard 1. That's all there is to it. there is no "unsure" about it. Caster levels do not stack cross-class, UNLESS you use this house rule variant: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm
Ace_of_time 05-15-07, 11:59 PM	The book says that Warlocks of 12th or high can make magic items and use UMD to get spells he need for that propose. So he would just need to be able to cast spells to be a lich. Is there a prestige class that he could take to get spells without wasting a level on a class he will never use. Does any one know what level he is now? If he is 5th than it would be faster with PS and if he is 9th it would be be faster to gain the levels in warlock and then a prestige class
Prak, the Mad 05-16-07, 12:11 AM	I was saying that if he just wanted to be a lich than he could gain & level in any class that has caster level. The best two would be wizard for spells and cleric for undead rebuking. Plus their is a undead leader ship feat that lets you take undead cohorts if the DM allows it. If he is a Dragon type race then he could be a dracolich. You just have to be Adult dragon and drink the poisoned potion. Note: that your ex has a HD of 11=4+7. the problem is warlock has no caster level and PS only allows +4 bonus. well, actually, warlock does have a caster level, but you could also just take PS twice and apply it to the other class.
kentonblack 05-16-07, 12:33 AM	If the warlock really wanted to achieve lichdom, I believe he would first have to take at least 11 levels in one of the three lich related spellcasting classes (cleric, sorcerer, or wizard). Once that hurdle is out of the way, craft the phylactery, proceed with the ritual, go lich. After that, you may begin to progress your warlock levels while having 11 levels of the any of the 3 aforementioned classes AND lich abilities. It's a long and hard road, but ultimately very rewarding, since it's pretty much a warlock that, if played intelligently, will never die/be destroyed once he goes Lich. You know, ive only been playing for three years but I do like this new wacky idea of READING THE BOOKS. IN the libris mortis, it is pointed out that the wording of the lich template does not in fact actually necessitate a SPECIFIC class of spellcasting ability, only the ability to creatre the phylactery. the phylactery costs 120000gp, and 4800xp. The creator must have the craft:wondrous item feat. the creator must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of eleventh. this means, using a warlock, with the craft wondrous item feat, as well as his imbue item class ability(to simulate spells using use magic device chacks) at twelfth level, he will qualify for the lich template. Caster level? check feat? check spell? check(imbue item) the template has no prereqs as a normal template, which i sprobably why you all began bickering so quickly over misinterpretations, therefore i will forgive your lack of an ability to READ THE BOOKS BEFORE ANSWERING. seriously. dont answer if you odnt know. now not to sound like a jerk, im sure you all think i am by now, i will admit that you came up with very inventive responses. I especially like the idea of a wizard warlock with spells and spell-like abilities. the NEED to use the eldrith theurgic fap-tastic classes is also well and good, if not completely unsessisary and railroading in its own way. but seriously... read the books. answer the questions. dont leave people out in the cold, waiting for answers. its rude.
Magrus 05-16-07, 12:59 AM	I think people often forget too that referencing new material against material that was printed before the new material was even thought of isn't always a clear cut thing. Sometimes, it is better to just think it over and do a logical thing that works with your game, rules be damned. The concept of a person/being who is channeling dark power for personal gain most certainly fits in flavor wise for a lich, right? Why not let it happen and just make it so the Warlock needs to wait until level 12 so they can craft the necessary item legally and then *poof* all set. Treasure and XP cost paid for creation, change commences, story goes on. Simple.
AlanBruce 05-16-07, 01:04 AM	I don't believe that berating on other people's ideas will further increase one's position of power on these boards. The alternative I suggested was one that is feasible and by the books. Are there better options out there? Of course there are, I'm sure. But there is no reason to take on the inquisitor's mantle and start tossing the cudgel around with impunity. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether these are heard and considered, is a different matter entirely. However, NO ONE has the right and authority to question other people in a rude and condescending manner. I stand by my view on how a lich warlock could come to be. As pointed above, other avenues exist. To each his own.
Ace_of_time 05-16-07, 01:15 AM	You know, ive only been playing for three years but I do like this new wacky idea of READING THE BOOKS. IN the libris mortis, it is pointed out that the wording of the lich template does not in fact actually necessitate a SPECIFIC class of spellcasting ability, only the ability to creatre the phylactery. the phylactery costs 120000gp, and 4800xp. The creator must have the craft:wondrous item feat. the creator must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of eleventh. this means, using a warlock, with the craft wondrous item feat, as well as his imbue item class ability(to simulate spells using use magic device chacks) at twelfth level, he will qualify for the lich template. Caster level? check feat? check spell? check(imbue item) the template has no prereqs as a normal template, which i sprobably why you all began bickering so quickly over misinterpretations, therefore i will forgive your lack of an ability to READ THE BOOKS BEFORE ANSWERING. seriously. dont answer if you odnt know. now not to sound like a jerk, im sure you all think i am by now, i will admit that you came up with very inventive responses. I especially like the idea of a wizard warlock with spells and spell-like abilities. the NEED to use the eldrith theurgic fap-tastic classes is also well and good, if not completely unsessisary and railroading in its own way. but seriously... read the books. answer the questions. dont leave people out in the cold, waiting for answers. its rude. So in the book where it say that warlocks do not cast spells how are we supposed to read this.
Prak, the Mad 05-16-07, 01:24 AM	well.... found something... Warlocks can take the acolyte of the skin PrC, which turns the character into an outsider at level 10, so a War6/AotS10 could go Fiendlich thereafter, as it would then have the spell like abilities requirement covered, and the 11 caster levels(if still neccesary.) you could also just go Tiefling Warlock12... or fiendish human warlock12...
Ace_of_time 05-16-07, 01:47 AM	What if they went warlack 12th got one of the dragon marks? Do they count as spells?
Prak, the Mad 05-16-07, 02:05 AM	What if they went warlack 12th got one of the dragon marks? Do they count as spells? those would be spell like abilities I believe...
Frogmantis 05-16-07, 03:32 AM	...let's be a bit honest here; this is all rules-lawyering. technically, a straight warlock might not be able to become a lich because he casts spell-like abilities and not spells, and technically there might be quite a few ways to get around this. But in the end, it would be fun and flavorful, and i think i'd allow it. or, at least make a variant version for them. I'd say it would be an interesting creation and would definitely fit with the flavor of both the warlock and the lich, though TECHNICALLY it would not be possible, due to the wording of the class and template. case closed, mostly. or not.
kentonblack 05-16-07, 12:47 PM	...let's be a bit honest here; this is all rules-lawyering. technically, a straight warlock might not be able to become a lich because he casts spell-like abilities and not spells, and technically there might be quite a few ways to get around this. But in the end, it would be fun and flavorful, and i think i'd allow it. or, at least make a variant version for them. I'd say it would be an interesting creation and would definitely fit with the flavor of both the warlock and the lich, though TECHNICALLY it would not be possible, due to the wording of the class and template. case closed, mostly. or not. I think I can agree with that.
Prak, the Mad 05-16-07, 02:21 PM	I agree, though I was trying to help out the rules lawyers... hell, you could even just use wish for some of this stuff... but I think I'm going to design a Warlich or something...
Ace_of_time 05-16-07, 09:15 PM	...let's be a bit honest here; this is all rules-lawyering. technically, a straight warlock might not be able to become a lich because he casts spell-like abilities and not spells, and technically there might be quite a few ways to get around this. But in the end, it would be fun and flavorful, and i think i'd allow it. or, at least make a variant version for them. I'd say it would be an interesting creation and would definitely fit with the flavor of both the warlock and the lich, though TECHNICALLY it would not be possible, due to the wording of the class and template. case closed, mostly. or not. It really isn't that. It's says that they are spell-like abilities but are not spells. So I just thought since it was worded that way that reg spell-like ones would count as spells. He could get one of those ex wands that cast a spell 2 per day I know they count.
Frogmantis 05-17-07, 02:29 AM	possibly, possibly. sometimes though I do think the WotC guys sometimes end up stepping all over their tongues, getting their feet in the mouths, with all their hidden word definitions and finality that the bring to their own rules. its why they have so much errata. so, in the end, even though spell-like abilities are NOT spells, I think it would be in the flavor of the class that i'd "accidentally" miss that.
Frogmantis 05-17-07, 02:32 AM	...but then again, I sometimes find myself playing rules-lite. silly me.
Prak, the Mad 05-17-07, 03:38 AM	yeah, I mean, hell, we all do it, everyone's got at least one rule they don't like and never use... I myself ignore several rules... like xp penalties...
Frogmantis 05-17-07, 03:43 AM	yeah, I mean, hell, we all do it, everyone's got at least one rule they don't like and never use... I myself ignore several rules... like xp penalties... amen.
Ace_of_time 05-17-07, 06:33 AM	yeah, I mean, hell, we all do it, everyone's got at least one rule they don't like and never use... I myself ignore several rules... like xp penalties... I never even under stood why that was ether. Doesn't really make sense. All I care about is that everyone is having fun. I hate the cross class one too. on the topic at hand, maybe that him take a feat that lets him count them as spell to meet this req. EX: Spell like caster. pre: spell like abilities;or warlock: must have a caster level Benefit: This feat lets you count your spell like abilities to count as spells to meet the preq for other feat, prestige classes, and templates. This might work for every one. But it will really be up to his DM whether to let him do it no matter what we say about it. If that doesn't work you could try get that magic book that allows spell casting. I don't remember how it works.
PhaedrusXY 05-17-07, 12:04 PM	I think a single classed warlock 12 could become a lich. At the beginning, the Lich template says this: "Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery. Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. The warlock's Imbue Item ability specifically lets it bypass the "be able to cast spells" requirement. It can meet all the others. Imbue Item – You can create magic items based on spells you cannot cast. A warlock 12 can create any magic item, even without the necessary spells, as long as he/she has the proper feats. Therefore, the warlock can indeed make a phylactery.
Prak, the Mad 05-18-07, 12:35 PM	well there ya go, it's fine. depending on interpretation, I suppose.... but as to the feat... no, that's just a waste of a feat... you only get about 6 or 7 feats, why pick up one that just makes your sp. likes count as spells for a PrC? hell, stuff like power attack is a waste of a feat, weapon focus is a waste of a feat... I would either make a feat that does more for the warlock, or, well, I'm sure you all know my opinion on warliches...
Ace_of_time 05-18-07, 10:35 PM	I haven't really seen that many feats that are worth getting for wizards. But that is just me. Most wizard feats you can get items to do the same. The most usefull one is PS. Maybe some of those feats that lower item creation cost but my Player would rather cut off there arm then to give up XP.
Frogmantis 05-19-07, 02:48 AM	A warlock 12 can create any magic item, even without the necessary spells, as long as he/she has the proper feats. Therefore, the warlock can indeed make a phylactery. There you are. PhaedrusXY is the winner for rules-layering the awesome and impossible! :P I like it, and I'd love to make one.
Zenogias 05-19-07, 02:59 AM	This is ridiculous. It is obvious to anyone that can see past the time barrier, that a Warlock can become a Lich. The only reason this debate is going on is because when Liches were written up in their respective guides, Warlocks did not exist.
Frogmantis 05-19-07, 03:11 AM	This is ridiculous. It is obvious to anyone that can see past the time barrier, that a Warlock can become a Lich. The only reason this debate is going on is because when Liches were written up in their respective guides, Warlocks did not exist. I agree most strongly.
Prak, the Mad 05-19-07, 03:17 AM	I haven't really seen that many feats that are worth getting for wizards. But that is just me. Most wizard feats you can get items to do the same. The most usefull one is PS. Maybe some of those feats that lower item creation cost but my Player would rather cut off there arm then to give up XP. by in large, feats are an utter failure, the closest things to useful feats are reserve and tactical feats.