Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hasmead_Guy 01-19-06, 07:51 AM	Perhaps there is no answer, but I asked my new DM, and he isn't really sure. Whatcha think?
Morka 01-19-06, 08:05 AM	Perhaps there is no answer, but I asked my new DM, and he isn't really sure. Whatcha think? Ahem... The Beholders are more likely to domesticate you than the reverse... But I guess that with a good gift of slaves and a big diplomacy check, you can manage to have a few of them help you for a specific mission.
Eno_Badger 01-19-06, 08:42 AM	Any creature that has significant power over it should be able to domesticate it as much as any other intelligent creature. It will be a difficult and long winded program but enough torture both mental and physical will eventually do it (flashing lamp of sunlight springs to mind). Just be sure to watch your back as it may act subservient to stop you inflicting pain on it, but its sure to turn you into a dust pile as soon as your back is turned. I'm sure high level wizards who can get round that eye thing could do it, high level demons, Wish spell?, evil dragons. I'm sure In FR setting there were a few Beholders under the rule of Zenith Keep. In 2nd ed. there was a 'beholder-Kin' a bit smaller with 4 extra eyes, that wizard used to guard there treasure. Which may be a easier compromise.
CzarGarrett 01-19-06, 08:56 AM	I don't think its really possible to domesticate a Beholder. At least not as it is currently. Perhaps if there was a being(s) powerful enough to capture and breed the Beholders, they could eventually establish a beholder subspecies with a lesser intellect, at which point they could become domesticated. But as of now, a Beholder might be forced into slavery or coerced into serving, but that is a far, far cry from domestication.
The Vorpal Tribble 01-19-06, 10:06 AM	A Hive Mother (p. 135 of Lords of Madness) literally 'domesticates' other beholders, able to use an advanced form of Dominate Monster that only works on beholders and beholderkin. She gathers up beholders from all over and they together do her bidding in massive communities. She's a CR 16 though, so good luck getting her to domesticate them on your behalf ;)
Wayward Son 01-19-06, 10:13 AM	The term you want is "enslave", not "domesticate". Beholders are intelligent, sapient beings, so they can't just be lead around like cattle. You can (attempt to) befriend one, capture one, dominate one, enslave one, inspire one, or smooth-talk one, but you can't domesticate one. There is a reason they have a charm monster ray, btw. Beholders are used to being the slave masters, not slaves themselves (excepting to a Hive Mother, but let's not get into that). True, they don't typically like to keep around "inferior" beings for any length of time, but they occasionally find a pair of hands useful to them.
Th_Ar_Al 01-19-06, 10:51 AM	I wondering with would be a good name for a beholder, how abou Rex or Lassie?
Eno_Badger 01-19-06, 04:20 PM	How about Xiongnu Anophthalmia
Valkaun_Dain 01-19-06, 04:52 PM	Perhaps there is no answer, but I asked my new DM, and he isn't really sure. Whatcha think? Interesting idea. Not sure if it'd work but you could give it a shot. Our group is currently working on domesticating cockatrices. We have a cockatrice ranch/rock garden and statuary. While we don't charge admission to the rock garden if you don't buy a statue you're given a free entry pass to the rock garden. bok bok bok B-KOK! :chicken:
Gold Katana 01-19-06, 05:10 PM	Domesticated by anything other than a hive mother - no! Beholders are insane.
The Abominable Darkling 01-19-06, 05:17 PM	The term you want is "enslave", not "domesticate". Beholders are intelligent, sapient beings, so they can't just be lead around like cattle. You can (attempt to) befriend one, capture one, dominate one, enslave one, inspire one, or smooth-talk one, but you can't domesticate one. This is the correct answer. Only animals and similarly unintelligent creatures can be "domesticated."
ele 01-19-06, 07:49 PM	well the defintion of domestication is an animal that has been bred to fit a humans needs like a cow. Technincally their are a bunch of qualification to be domesticated but thats the main one. Taming is when you socialize an animal to interact with humans. Also I dont think magical control counts as domestication or taming.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-19-06, 10:51 PM	According to Eye Tyrant, good luck in using Diplomacy on a beholder. A beholder can't stand beholders who look slightly different from it. The only use it has for humanoids are slaves or target practice. You had better have a great deal to get a beholder to work with you.
Hasmead_Guy 01-20-06, 01:47 AM	Well, lets say it was captured during infancy and raised with very powerful, stern people. Would they be functional members of a community, or do I just simply not know what the heck I'm talkin about? :)
Olly 01-20-06, 08:47 AM	I don't think beholders can be domesticated. They probably can be befriended, but it'd very much be a one-sided friendship. I imagine the beholder would want to be constantly told how big and powerful and important it was, and would think nothing of turning on its 'friend' should its usefulness end (or, for that matter, if it just fancied a laugh).
Gold Katana 01-20-06, 09:06 AM	According to the physiology and mentality presented in the aberrations supplemental book, a beholder would never fit in socially anywhere short of a hive. They are hard-wired uber homicidal ego-maniacs.
Spike_Fightwicky 01-20-06, 09:36 AM	According to the physiology and mentality presented in the aberrations supplemental book, a beholder would never fit in socially anywhere short of a hive. They are hard-wired uber homicidal ego-maniacs. Bingo! I think the Lords of Madness book also goes as far as to say that beholders cannot be raised any differently from young, because their feelings of racial superiority are 'hard-wired' into them at birth. Likely as soon as the beholder thought himself strong enough to kill you, he would. Then he'd make a lovely garden of statues out of your loved ones.
Omya 01-21-06, 05:49 AM	Bingo! I think the Lords of Madness book also goes as far as to say that beholders cannot be raised any differently from young, because their feelings of racial superiority are 'hard-wired' into them at birth. Likely as soon as the beholder thought himself strong enough to kill you, he would. Then he'd make a lovely garden of statues out of your loved ones. I the FR underdark book, it mentions a good Beholder who left his hive and hooked up with another 'born-good' member of another evil race (mindflayer I think it was). They are now adventurers who are constantly on the run because their own races want them dead as they see them as abominations. So just because a creature is 'always evil' in its description that dosent mean it is 100% true all the time, there can be exceptions, look at Drizzt. If angels can fall, then devils can rise? There are also spells/items that can swap or change alignments. :)
Hasmead_Guy 01-21-06, 10:45 AM	Isn't Drizzt a Drow? If so, isn't the evil nature of the drow more a cultural thing? Oh well, let's change the subject. What if you cought a gnoll puppy, could you raise it to be halfway decent?
Slagger the Chuul 01-21-06, 11:23 AM	Beholders have so many mutants in their ranks that I wouldn't be surprised at almost anything turning up. With every birth there is a very small chance you will get a beholder whose eye rays turn people into cute bunnies.
Flayer 01-21-06, 12:33 PM	in a FR novel a group of people some how kept all of the beholders eyes closed or covered with something and kept the eye stalks pointing straight would only use one eye at a time
Draegun Fury 01-21-06, 01:38 PM	Be warned I use 3.0... As far as I understand it, Domestication is simply a nice way of saying, capturing/enslaving someone/something and breaking its spirit until it does what its told. In this case, just boost your Intimidate check so that taking ten always results in the Beholder being subservient. Make an "Antimagic Collar" whenever it does something bad just say the command word, after the Beholder falls to the ground helpless kick the crap out of it for a few minuets, then take twenty on an Intimidate check, (the DM should also give bonuses for Good Role-Playing (if you Role-Play it good) and for Circumstance bonuses) Then repeat the command and let your re-Domesticated Beholder bob back up. Another option, (if available in 3.5) is Enslave a Deepspawn, then feed it a beholder, you will have an army of beholders loyal to the Deepspawn, who is loyal to you. Cheers.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-21-06, 01:56 PM	To fit with what others have said, beholders are psychopaths. Since pyschopathy is hard-wired into the brain, and cannot be removed, raising a beholder from birth would do nothing. It'd still see you as inferior, and it'd still kill you if it got the chance.
Rake 01-21-06, 02:52 PM	Sure they can. You just cast animate dead... But seriously, if you're talking about a nonevil creature raising a newborn (newspawned?) beholder into service or partnership from infancy, I should say yes... as far as you can theoretically 'domesticate' any thinking, feeling creature (let alone a thinking, feeling creature with a capacity for intelligence that likely far exceeds your own). Evil is second-nature to some creatures, sure, but beholders are not devils, for whom the concept of "evil" is indistinguishable from the concept of "existance". Mind you, it would not be easy. Incredible power, combined with a staggering intellect, will often lead to a superiority complex. It should be no less difficult to convince a mature beholder that you are an 'equal' than it would to convince an angel or a mighty wizard, for example. Additionally, such a creature would undoubtably recognize early on your 'domestication' for what it is, and - once its confidence and the self-assurance of its mental superiority over you could develop, it would most likely attempt to gain freedom - at the very least - or to destroy you (whom it would likely understand to be its wicked captor or deciever) at worst.
tallforadwarf 01-21-06, 04:11 PM	Hey all! In our on going Planescape game there is an Asherake NPC (race from Oathbound) who has done exactly this. Sort of. His star pit fighters are a pair of semi-labotomized Beholders! That's what an epic monk/artificer is capable of though... :P In the last game they featured in, one of the Beholders (Magog) escaped and got mixed up in an assassination plot. After a brave (?) and madness inspired escape from the plotting revolutionaries, the final scene of the game saw Magog floating off into the wilderness. He's still out there... somewhere... :) Happy gaming and Peace, tfad
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-21-06, 04:58 PM	as far as you can theoretically 'domesticate' any thinking, feeling creature See, that's the problem. Beholders don't have feelings. They're psychopaths. It's hardwired into their brain.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-21-06, 05:27 PM	See, that's the problem. Beholders don't have feelings. They're psychopaths. It's hardwired into their brain. So if I cast Symbol of Insanity on a Beholder, does it go sane?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-21-06, 05:37 PM	So if I cast Symbol of Insanity on a Beholder, does it go sane? No, it suffers the effects of the spell, assuming its antimagic eye doesn't nullify the spell. There's more than one type of insanity, you know. :rolleyes:
savant_warlord13 01-24-06, 05:28 PM	It depends on what you mean by domesticate. Beholders cannot be domesticated the way dogs are, they are too intelligent. In theory, you could enslave them, but that would be rather difficult.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-24-06, 11:34 PM	Well, lets say it was captured during infancy and raised with very powerful, stern people. Would they be functional members of a community, or do I just simply not know what the heck I'm talkin about? :) According to Eye Tyrant, it can't be domesticated. This is because, by human standards, they're very insane. There are bound to be a few beholders who are insane by beholder standards, which means they have "unhealthy" thoughts, like not wanting to slay anything different from themselves (like humans). However, the vast majority of beholders will be sane by their standards. You won't be able to raise it, unless raising it involves imprisoning it in an anti-magic chamber.
Shotgun_badger 01-24-06, 11:48 PM	See, that's the problem. Beholders don't have feelings. They're psychopaths. It's hardwired into their brain. Sorry to start a Psych debate here (Hey I'm a know-it-all teen what can I say?), but all creatures capable of thought have feelings, the creatures like Beholders, Drow, or Mind Flayers that "are just naturally evil" just choose to repress their emotions so that they won't "get in the way". On topic, I'm sure if you had raised one since birth you could just twist it so he thinks you are his father and obeys you, untill he hits 13 though then he'll hate you like all of his people. ;)
InkBlot 01-25-06, 12:29 AM	Feeblemind the sucker! With an int of 1 it can be truly domesticated, although it would probably still have the personality of a mean old junkyard dog. At the minimum level you can cast feeblemind you can cast from up to 40 feat outside of the beholder's ray range, and the beholder only has a 20 foot fly speed. Also, at that level you should have enough divination spells to be able to get the jump on any beholder who isn't also a mage, assuming you're hunting it down and not vice-versa.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-25-06, 12:03 PM	On topic, I'm sure if you had raised one since birth you could just twist it so he thinks you are his father and obeys you, untill he hits 13 though then he'll hate you like all of his people. ;) It's inherent xenophobia would prevent that. If you somehow convinced it you were its actual father (the way the beholder's two brains work, that is extremely unlikely), then it would probably kill itself for being a horrible monster. One wonders how beholders can stand to be around lesser beholderkin.
Krede_the_Mighty 01-25-06, 12:52 PM	Sorry to start a Psych debate here (Hey I'm a know-it-all teen what can I say?), but all creatures capable of thought have feelings, the creatures like Beholders, Drow, or Mind Flayers that "are just naturally evil" just choose to repress their emotions so that they won't "get in the way". On topic, I'm sure if you had raised one since birth you could just twist it so he thinks you are his father and obeys you, untill he hits 13 though then he'll hate you like all of his people. ;) This is going to be my first, and perhaps only out-of-character post (I don't expect Krede to make it into the dragon competition), but I wanted to get something in on this matter- Creatures capable of thought generally have feelings as well. However, a true psychopath lacks, for whatever reason (chemical imbalance is likely, though it is possible that environmental factors could create one), truly lacks emotion. I'll skip over APA and such as sources and link to the Wikipedia article (Wikipedia is actually fairly trustworthy on this one) dealing with psychopathy: Psychopathy at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath). I realize that DnD is not precisely the real world, and so things like Good/Evil, Chaotic/Neutral are approximations for the sake of gameplay. However, if Beholders are described as psychopathic, it implies that they are fundamentally different than, say, Drow, who are emotional (though they may control their emotions). With the Drow, it is their culture that promotes a worldview (Evil) regardless of their mental stability. For gaming, go ahead and do whatever you wish. I just wanted to make sure that it's known that a true psychopath in the real world is incurable- hardwired (miswired) to be emotionless. It's not a situation of teaching him or her not to hate, or being worried about him or her becoming hateful at a certain age. It means that this person is egocentric (concerned, intellectually-speaking, only with him- or her-self) and without feelings, including hate. They're not faking or repressing- they lack.
Sarlax 01-25-06, 02:04 PM	Beholders are biologically incapable of forming human-like social attachments, at least given what's been presenting in sources like Lords of Madness and I, Tyrant. It would be impossible to train a baby beholder to be your friend. This is specifically indicated in I, Tyrant. If I raise a beholder from infancy to adulthood will it be my friend forever? No. Beholder paranoia is present from the moment of birth. In addition, the infant beholder will not imprint on an obviously "flawed" parent. It will eventually attempt to kill you, even if you feed and bathe it regularly. A newborn beholder possesses strong racial memories. Within minutes of emerging from the womb, it can speak the beholder language and already displaces powerful xenophobic and intolerant attitudes. For these reasons, it is difficult for a beholder to become anything but evil. If you know SG-1, raising a beholder to be your friend is like getting the goa'uld to be nice guys. They just aren't biologically capable. Sure, you sometimes find one that won't immediately destroy you. Some even might enjoy your company for a time, thinking of you like a pet. But they will never think of you as an equal or a friend. Even if we ignore their biological nature, it would still be nearly impossible to get a decent person from these things. Imagine a human child with all the powers of a beholder. Beholders have their powers under control after only a few months (LoM 41). A baby kicks, screams, cries, and generally does whatever it can to get what it wants. Now imagine if a baby could disintegrate people it didn't like, telekinetically hurl objects around the room, and place any number of people under mind control. That baby won't end up very civilized. The only realistic way to raise a nice beholder would involve neutralizing both its power and its instincts while it's being raised. This would probably mean ensuring that it's always blind as well as keeping it continually charmed. If possible, erase the beholder's racial memories. Except for the River Styx, I don't know of anything off-hand that would completely eradicate a memory set, however. If you can do it, the "blank" beholder might be receptive to human-like social interaction. Still, there's no guarentee, since we don't know if an infant beholder's mind has the proper structure to learn behavior - it's designed to learn from an experience informed by its racial memory, not from a blank slate.
Ogre4Hire 01-25-06, 10:24 PM	I think your best and probably only bet on getting a good or friendly beholder is by Sanctifying it, as described in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Barring that, you're going to be feeling some serious unhappiness via Disintigrate, Finger of Death, and Flesh to Stone.