Can dragons wield weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can dragons wield weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EvilVegan
02-11-06, 12:21 PM Can dragons wield weapons?
MrAdam
02-11-06, 12:58 PM Can Dragons wield weapons? Unfortunately (for characters) yes they can. A moment I will never forget in D&D was one of the few times I was actually a player and we faced the dreaded ancient red dragon Kal'Srythe... and his dragon-slayer-slayer
metamind
02-11-06, 02:06 PM No. they don't have thumbs.
savant_warlord13
02-11-06, 02:30 PM there are several ways in which dragons can wield weapons

opposable weapons
mouthpick weapons
dancing weapons
shapechanging into a form with thumbs

and thats just off the top of my head
EvilVegan
02-11-06, 02:44 PM No. they don't have thumbs.
Dragons totally have thumbs!
metamind
02-11-06, 04:29 PM well even if they do, a dragon holding a battle axe, its just not right...
dok
02-11-06, 04:40 PM No. According to the Draconomicon, a dragon's front feet can grasp items, but not with enough precision to write, use tools, or wield weapons.

Dragons do have a claw similar to the thumb, but their front paws are not truly prehensile in the way that human hands are. They can hold spell components, open potions, and unroll scrolls, but using tools, writing, or weilding weapons is not possible.
metamind
02-11-06, 04:50 PM No. According to the Draconomicon, a dragon's front feet can grasp items, but not with enough precision to write, use tools, or wield weapons.

Dragons do have a claw similar to the thumb, but their front paws are not truly prehensile in the way that human hands are. They can hold spell components, open potions, and unroll scrolls, but using tools, writing, or weilding weapons is not possible.
Im pretty sure what the Draconomicon meant was that they could grasp onto tree limbs, cliff faces, ect. Not for holding itmes of any sort.
mathx314
02-11-06, 05:12 PM Whether or not dragons can wield standard weapons, I don't know. However, since dragons have bite attacks, then can wield mouthpick weapons, which are detailed in Lords of Madness. Basically, you can wield a weapon with your mouth, but the weapon cost increases by a +1 bonus.
Th_Ar_Al
02-11-06, 05:16 PM I think that even if they are capeable they would no use weapons. It would a simple matter of pride.
Derren S.
02-11-06, 05:20 PM I think that even if they are capeable they would no use weapons. It would a simple matter of pride.

With the high mental scores nearly all dragons have effectivness comes before pride.
metamind
02-11-06, 05:40 PM Perhaps the bigger question is: why would they even bother to wield a weapon? Call me crazy, but I would prefer fire breath over a greatsword.
Nightfall, Lord of Shadow
02-11-06, 06:30 PM Dragons don't use standard armaments, but some dragons, when preparing for all out war, have come up with nasty toys. In an issue of Dragon magazine, dragons have made tail blades, tail scythes, tail hammers, mouthpieces, rending claw attachments, and armor. Naturally, they are rarely seen, but then again, they don't exactly leave survivors when they bother to gear up. So, while they don't always hold weapons in their hands, they do have access to them.
Darkwolf_childe
02-12-06, 12:30 AM It would make sense for dragons to utilize their hoardings to the greatest effect. I can see a Dragon obtaining and using an opposable, sizing weapon as a back-up/surprize for an unlucky group of adventurers. Lead with breath-weapon and spells (which dragons usually do) and if the party is even minisculely aware that they are going against a dragon they'll expect and prepare for that. Not so if that dragon pulls out a dirty-big sword and starts grinning!
EvilVegan
02-12-06, 11:57 AM Perhaps the bigger question is: why would they even bother to wield a weapon? Call me crazy, but I would prefer fire breath over a greatsword.
The sword is for the 1d4 rounds between breaths. . .

Also, claws do 4d6 + 1/2 str mod, or 4d6+11 (20/x2) X 2 for a red dragon. So approximately 8d6+22. . . about 50 damage per round

Give him a great sword and that becomes 8d6+33 (19-20/x2) X 4 (for BAB). He can still use his other natural weapons for that round. So 32d6 + 132. . . about 182 damager per round. Not counting power attack which is twice as effective as using power attack with claws.
metamind
02-12-06, 01:32 PM Well, before I said: well even if they do, a dragon holding a battle axe, its just not right...
And I stand by it.
Johnny Cache
02-12-06, 02:43 PM Gotta admit, a dragon wielding a sword does sound wrong.

But that might be the very reason the dragon chose to use one. Consider: if you found the remains of a party, and the bodies had deep sword cuts and a few scorch marks, you wouldn't think a dragon did it. Your guess would likely be a strong barbarian and a sorc/wizzard.

Some other reasons a dragon might use a weapon: It's cursed so that s/he has to use it It has some useful ability like Ghost Touch, Speed, or Spell Storing The weapon belonged to an enemy, and the dragon enjoys the irony of using it.

As for the thumbs issue, don't forget that a dragon could shapeshift to get them, if s/he normally didn't. S/he chould also get a special hilt/handle built for the weapon, or get a pair of Gloves of Man (from Savage Species).
Mist of Shadows
02-12-06, 03:58 PM I'll point out that dragons would be better served in using a weapon while polymorphed. Or using the claw/bite/wing/tail up grades then actual weapons. Though the power attacking dragon with the great sword is scary they would go from bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail 6 attacks to 4 might be worth it.
metamind
02-12-06, 04:23 PM Gotta admit, a dragon wielding a sword does sound wrong.
Yes! someone finally has the same about dragons as I do!
deadpan
02-12-06, 05:08 PM I think that a race with natural weapons and spellcasting abilities might create a magic item as follows: It takes the form of a fingerless glove or a wrist bracer, and augments the natural attack of that limb. It may grant a +1 to +5 enchantment bonus to attack roll and damage. It may include other special weapon abilities. Cost is about the same as for a weapon with those enchantments.

Beyond that, I think weapons for the end of the tail are apropriate. Armor is often a problem for creatures who fly, as they don't want encumbrance past the light load level. Armor is especially a problem for dragons who change size category several times over the active portion of their life.

A dragon who has taken special measures so he can weild a huge or larger axe is certainly possible, and might be worth using once just for the shock value, but he should probably be a lone weirdo in this regard.
Ghidorah
02-12-06, 05:28 PM Well...it would be able to dish out a lot of damage, and if you wanted one to, well... you are the DM, you are evil, and you can completely change the meaning of the rules. However, if you do this, the dragon is gonna need some kind of drawback to using the weapon, maybe losing some speed (its gonna be moving with three legs, maybe even two, while holding something that even it would consider heavy).
EvilVegan
02-12-06, 05:50 PM I'll point out that dragons would be better served in using a weapon while polymorphed. Or using the claw/bite/wing/tail up grades then actual weapons. Though the power attacking dragon with the great sword is scary they would go from bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail 6 attacks to 4 might be worth it.
It actually goes from bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail to sword/sword/sword/sword/bite/wing/wing/tail, because of the silly way that natural weapons and iterative attacks interact. So it gets more attacks with more damage per attack and it can get weapon enhancements, which while not nearly as awesome as the weapon damage alone would at least be a bit funnier.

Perhaps the bigger question is: why would they even bother to wield a weapon? Call me crazy, but I would prefer fire breath over a greatsword.

Gotta admit, a dragon wielding a sword does sound wrong.

But you have to understand (and I didn't mention this before) this isn't for a DRAGON to use, its for a Master of Many Forms to use while turned INTO a dragon. So personality traits don't apply.
metamind
02-12-06, 06:01 PM Oh, so it is. My apolagies, I did not know that. Now it all seems to fit.
EvilVegan
02-12-06, 06:03 PM No need to apologize. :) I didn't give much information with my first post.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 02-11-06, 12:21 PM	Can dragons wield weapons?
MrAdam 02-11-06, 12:58 PM	Can Dragons wield weapons? Unfortunately (for characters) yes they can. A moment I will never forget in D&D was one of the few times I was actually a player and we faced the dreaded ancient red dragon Kal'Srythe... and his dragon-slayer-slayer
metamind 02-11-06, 02:06 PM	No. they don't have thumbs.
savant_warlord13 02-11-06, 02:30 PM	there are several ways in which dragons can wield weapons opposable weapons mouthpick weapons dancing weapons shapechanging into a form with thumbs and thats just off the top of my head
EvilVegan 02-11-06, 02:44 PM	No. they don't have thumbs. Dragons totally have thumbs!
metamind 02-11-06, 04:29 PM	well even if they do, a dragon holding a battle axe, its just not right...
dok 02-11-06, 04:40 PM	No. According to the Draconomicon, a dragon's front feet can grasp items, but not with enough precision to write, use tools, or wield weapons. Dragons do have a claw similar to the thumb, but their front paws are not truly prehensile in the way that human hands are. They can hold spell components, open potions, and unroll scrolls, but using tools, writing, or weilding weapons is not possible.
metamind 02-11-06, 04:50 PM	No. According to the Draconomicon, a dragon's front feet can grasp items, but not with enough precision to write, use tools, or wield weapons. Dragons do have a claw similar to the thumb, but their front paws are not truly prehensile in the way that human hands are. They can hold spell components, open potions, and unroll scrolls, but using tools, writing, or weilding weapons is not possible. Im pretty sure what the Draconomicon meant was that they could grasp onto tree limbs, cliff faces, ect. Not for holding itmes of any sort.
mathx314 02-11-06, 05:12 PM	Whether or not dragons can wield standard weapons, I don't know. However, since dragons have bite attacks, then can wield mouthpick weapons, which are detailed in Lords of Madness. Basically, you can wield a weapon with your mouth, but the weapon cost increases by a +1 bonus.
Th_Ar_Al 02-11-06, 05:16 PM	I think that even if they are capeable they would no use weapons. It would a simple matter of pride.
Derren S. 02-11-06, 05:20 PM	I think that even if they are capeable they would no use weapons. It would a simple matter of pride. With the high mental scores nearly all dragons have effectivness comes before pride.
metamind 02-11-06, 05:40 PM	Perhaps the bigger question is: why would they even bother to wield a weapon? Call me crazy, but I would prefer fire breath over a greatsword.
Nightfall, Lord of Shadow 02-11-06, 06:30 PM	Dragons don't use standard armaments, but some dragons, when preparing for all out war, have come up with nasty toys. In an issue of Dragon magazine, dragons have made tail blades, tail scythes, tail hammers, mouthpieces, rending claw attachments, and armor. Naturally, they are rarely seen, but then again, they don't exactly leave survivors when they bother to gear up. So, while they don't always hold weapons in their hands, they do have access to them.
Darkwolf_childe 02-12-06, 12:30 AM	It would make sense for dragons to utilize their hoardings to the greatest effect. I can see a Dragon obtaining and using an opposable, sizing weapon as a back-up/surprize for an unlucky group of adventurers. Lead with breath-weapon and spells (which dragons usually do) and if the party is even minisculely aware that they are going against a dragon they'll expect and prepare for that. Not so if that dragon pulls out a dirty-big sword and starts grinning!
EvilVegan 02-12-06, 11:57 AM	Perhaps the bigger question is: why would they even bother to wield a weapon? Call me crazy, but I would prefer fire breath over a greatsword. The sword is for the 1d4 rounds between breaths. . . Also, claws do 4d6 + 1/2 str mod, or 4d6+11 (20/x2) X 2 for a red dragon. So approximately 8d6+22. . . about 50 damage per round Give him a great sword and that becomes 8d6+33 (19-20/x2) X 4 (for BAB). He can still use his other natural weapons for that round. So 32d6 + 132. . . about 182 damager per round. Not counting power attack which is twice as effective as using power attack with claws.
metamind 02-12-06, 01:32 PM	Well, before I said: well even if they do, a dragon holding a battle axe, its just not right... And I stand by it.
Johnny Cache 02-12-06, 02:43 PM	Gotta admit, a dragon wielding a sword does sound wrong. But that might be the very reason the dragon chose to use one. Consider: if you found the remains of a party, and the bodies had deep sword cuts and a few scorch marks, you wouldn't think a dragon did it. Your guess would likely be a strong barbarian and a sorc/wizzard. Some other reasons a dragon might use a weapon: It's cursed so that s/he has to use it It has some useful ability like Ghost Touch, Speed, or Spell Storing The weapon belonged to an enemy, and the dragon enjoys the irony of using it. As for the thumbs issue, don't forget that a dragon could shapeshift to get them, if s/he normally didn't. S/he chould also get a special hilt/handle built for the weapon, or get a pair of Gloves of Man (from Savage Species).
Mist of Shadows 02-12-06, 03:58 PM	I'll point out that dragons would be better served in using a weapon while polymorphed. Or using the claw/bite/wing/tail up grades then actual weapons. Though the power attacking dragon with the great sword is scary they would go from bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail 6 attacks to 4 might be worth it.
metamind 02-12-06, 04:23 PM	Gotta admit, a dragon wielding a sword does sound wrong. Yes! someone finally has the same about dragons as I do!
deadpan 02-12-06, 05:08 PM	I think that a race with natural weapons and spellcasting abilities might create a magic item as follows: It takes the form of a fingerless glove or a wrist bracer, and augments the natural attack of that limb. It may grant a +1 to +5 enchantment bonus to attack roll and damage. It may include other special weapon abilities. Cost is about the same as for a weapon with those enchantments. Beyond that, I think weapons for the end of the tail are apropriate. Armor is often a problem for creatures who fly, as they don't want encumbrance past the light load level. Armor is especially a problem for dragons who change size category several times over the active portion of their life. A dragon who has taken special measures so he can weild a huge or larger axe is certainly possible, and might be worth using once just for the shock value, but he should probably be a lone weirdo in this regard.
Ghidorah 02-12-06, 05:28 PM	Well...it would be able to dish out a lot of damage, and if you wanted one to, well... you are the DM, you are evil, and you can completely change the meaning of the rules. However, if you do this, the dragon is gonna need some kind of drawback to using the weapon, maybe losing some speed (its gonna be moving with three legs, maybe even two, while holding something that even it would consider heavy).
EvilVegan 02-12-06, 05:50 PM	I'll point out that dragons would be better served in using a weapon while polymorphed. Or using the claw/bite/wing/tail up grades then actual weapons. Though the power attacking dragon with the great sword is scary they would go from bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail 6 attacks to 4 might be worth it. It actually goes from bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail to sword/sword/sword/sword/bite/wing/wing/tail, because of the silly way that natural weapons and iterative attacks interact. So it gets more attacks with more damage per attack and it can get weapon enhancements, which while not nearly as awesome as the weapon damage alone would at least be a bit funnier. Perhaps the bigger question is: why would they even bother to wield a weapon? Call me crazy, but I would prefer fire breath over a greatsword. Gotta admit, a dragon wielding a sword does sound wrong. But you have to understand (and I didn't mention this before) this isn't for a DRAGON to use, its for a Master of Many Forms to use while turned INTO a dragon. So personality traits don't apply.
metamind 02-12-06, 06:01 PM	Oh, so it is. My apolagies, I did not know that. Now it all seems to fit.
EvilVegan 02-12-06, 06:03 PM	No need to apologize. :) I didn't give much information with my first post.