Can good outsiders 'sin'? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can good outsiders 'sin'? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Vorpal Tribble
07-29-05, 06:41 PM I was thinking, good outsiders are the embodiment of all that is good. Good given given form and solidity.

Being literally made of good can they actually do evil? As far as I can tell a good outsider doing anything evil would be like negative energy healing living folks. Its not only repugnant to them, but physically and mentally I would think they were incapable of it. They are MADE of the concept of good.
Purkake
07-29-05, 06:57 PM *Waits for another interesting and educating essey from Shemmy*

What? I don't know, ask Shemmy ;)
Callahan
07-29-05, 07:07 PM is it physically possible? Yes.

Is it likely to happen? No.

An angel can sin, but it is very OOC.
The Vorpal Tribble
07-29-05, 07:12 PM is it physically possible? Yes.
Well, I mean, killing an innocent would be a sin. But if it was an accident or done out of ignorance or some such they weren't aware they did it and so isn't really a sin because if they had known about it they would never have done it.
Kingrames
07-29-05, 09:08 PM evil begets evil.

if some random deva accidentally fell in with the wrong crowd and was tricked into fighting for them, or "gaslighted" (see ravenloft), there's a definite possibility of a fall from grace.
The Vorpal Tribble
07-29-05, 09:51 PM But... how can you fall from grace if you are MADE of grace? I'm just using D&D stuff here. If you are literally good carnate how can you become ungood anymore than I can become silicon based?
The_Rose
07-29-05, 09:57 PM this raises several interesting points, some of which extend out of D&D and into the very nature of good and evil.

If a being of pure good, MADE OUT OF the essence of "good", one could assume that it would be physically incapable of consciously commiting evil. But, should the situation arise in which a good outsider accidentally comits an evil act, does that constitute a fall from grace? Is mishap evil? If so, it would also be impossible for a good outside to be mistaken, given the nature of their type, so logically, it could be said that while an outsider (good) could not actually commit evil, any unintentional evil would not be cause for damnation. However, I expect that a very big atonement would be in order.
Gurv
07-29-05, 11:03 PM I think that there are a few things you are overlooking.

A single act of evil does not automatically make you evil. Becoming evil requires either conscious effort or disaffection with the concept of good. As long as any creature truly seeks to do only good, it cannot become evil no matter the result of it's attempt. A creature of pure good, however, knows the difference, and is unlikely to make mistakes unless it is tricked or its hand is forced (a situation of Lesser Evils, see below). Unlike a mortal, a good outsider is made of Good and is therefore well aware of when something it is doing crosses the line; no creature understands good as it does, so if it can't tell the difference, then it is unlikely that we could.

So, the only way a celestial would do evil is if it is tricked into it. Most celestials are well trained (spending the earlier part of eternity on it) in how to avoid such pitfalls and are unlikely to fall for a simple ruse. When they do get tricked into something evil, the evil act itself is actually the responsibility of the one doing the misleading. If, for some reason, blame can be placed on the celestial, it truly is an honest mistake and can likely be atoned for with only the slightest smear on its purity. In any case, a proper celestial will be deeply upset about it's involvement in such a thing, and seek forgiveness no matter how at fault it really is.

The other situation where celestials are known to commit evil is what I refer to as Lesser Evils, as in "any situation where the only option is to take the lesser of two (or more) evils". In this case, there is no choice but to allow some evil act to take place. The best a celestial can do is try to minimize the evil that is done, and be willing to suffer the consequences even if it means Falling or the loss of other powers (ironically, such self-sacrifice is itself a good act). Better yet, wise gods and DMs recognize that in such morally ambiguous situations the entirety of the blame should fall on the one who created it, or upon themselves for allowing it to happen in the first place.

Minor Rant
The problem with Lesser Evils is that they are caused by moral ambiguity. That suggests that it is possible for a situation to exist in which it is impossible to determine good from evil. This possibility apparently exists in the real world. But what a DM should consider is that in a universe where creatures of pure good can exist, where both good and evil can be quantified, there really can't be moral ambiguity, because you can actually measure those things. It is unfair to a celestial, or a paladin for that matter, to place him in a situation where there is no choice but to commit evil. Both celestials and paladins presuppose a reality in which good and evil are quantifiable; if the DM is willing to accept that then he should be willing to accept that it is his responsibility to see that the rest of that reality follows suit. Therefore, in a reality where paladins exist, there cannot be a situation where they can not choose the right course of action.

The last situation of celestials committing an evil act likely occurs when a celestial is not perfectly pure to begin with, or is somehow exposed to evil in such a way as to maim that purity. This is incredibly rare, a phenomenon of morality. Just as chaos eventually produces a result that is "ideally orderly", or order develops a "perfectly random method," it is possible for someone to become so good that they are twisted to evil. The most common example is a celestial who becomes corrupted by pride in its own perfection. It is also possible to sully ones own purity by seeking to avoid contact with anything that is impure; this mistake results in one allowing evil to exist because of an unwillingness to be involved enough to stop it.

The only thing more rare than pure good being twisted to evil in this way is the concept of something so evil that it becomes good. No such events have been documented.
MinusInnocence
07-30-05, 01:53 AM I agree Good outsiders are a corporeal embodiment of the all that is Good. They aren't simply a creature one might say has a few "good" qualities; if Good had two legs and a shiny sword, it would look like a Good outsider.

Having said that, they are a SENTIENT corporeal embodiment of all that is Good. I do think they are fallible simply because they can feel emotions, which sometimes cloud judgment; furthermore, not being omnipotent, they come into existence not already having everything which they might conceivably desire. This can also lead to messy situations.

I do think it is exceptionally difficult, though, for an Outsider to "sin." It sounds like the sort of thing entire civilizations who lived to tell the tale of it would probably have legends and songs and art depicting the event (or, more likely, series of events).

I'm reminded of a small section in the Book of Vile Darkness. Now, just like the Book of Exalted Deeds, most of it was pretty cheesy but this particular piece of it was interesting, if not actually useful: it was about the varying degrees by which we can describe Evil events, and the effects such events might have in the Prime material plane. Things like 1,000 babies being impaled on spears simultaneously or an Evil god being born or... well, I would think a Good outsider falling from grace should count here. Y'know, cosmic scales tipping and all that jazz.

Something I've always had a problem wrapping my head around... Celestials are from the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, right? Well, I think each layer of Celestia is infinite. Does this mean there are an infinite number of Celestials? They don't have to eat or sleep or even breathe so I would imagine they don't take up a lot of space. In the Monster Manual, creature with the Alignment descriptor of "Always" are said to be capable of swaying from this Alignment, but such exceptions are "one in a million."

What does that phrase even mean when you're talking about an infinite number of beings? Ugh.

Oh well, weird stuff they probably didn't wrack their brains over when they wrote the Core rules.
Fiery_Overlord
07-30-05, 04:08 PM I would say yes angels can comit evil acts but in doing so I believe it would tansform them.

If good isn't good anymore then what is it? The obvious answer is evil. I have seen referances to fallen celestials (ie Erinyes) and I believe that is an example of this principle.

I think outsiders with alignments subtypes would be exceptions to the exception in alignment.
Domriso
07-30-05, 09:52 PM Yes according to the one demon (or devil, i can't remeber which) a celestial can fall from grace and become evil. This is also the case of the one weapon of legacy that has two sides, one being the path of the angel, the othe the path of the fallen angel.
Dartanel
07-30-05, 10:15 PM Think of it this way,

Good outsiders are defined by goodness the way living creatures are defined by being alive.

Thus, the urge to do good would be as powerful in them as the survival instinct is in us.

So a sentient good outsider committing an evil act would be on the level of a human being killing themselves. It would require that degree of duress.
Fiery_Overlord
07-30-05, 10:18 PM Think of it this way,

Good outsiders are defined by goodness the way living creatures are defined by being alive.

Thus, the urge to do good would be as powerful in them as the survival instinct is in us.

So a sentient good outsider committing an evil act would be on the level of a human being killing themselves. It would require that degree of duress.

That is a fair analogy, following that logic the result of a good outsider being evil would no longer being a good outsider but an evil outsider like the transformation of life to undeath.
xver
07-31-05, 06:45 AM Yes, they can. They are not perfect. They make mistakes. The lower thier mental stats, the more likely a fall from grace is. Also remember that anything with an Int over 3 has free will. It can do as it pleases. It can change it's alignment even if the MM says "always". The idea of a Dark Angel is a fundamental type. In many RL cosmologies demons and devils are mearly fallen angels. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, most celestials sin rarely. Have mostly minor transgressions and repent whole heartedly. However, the more capricous can fall compleatly. Many a paladin has taken the dark path. Suductive is the darkside to the unwary. So to have the higher lights gone dim. For all are unworthy in some respect.

The worst of them get exiled and often end up fighting in the blood war or somehow make thier way to a material plane. Once they find an new place, they find their carisma and beguiling looks can make people think all the wrong things about them. Dark angels could deal a fortune in dirty deeds in a city like the cage. You'd better belive it's possible.

[ I usually don't preach like that, but you asked. Oh and Incubi and Sucubi where born for this. ]
bgt
07-31-05, 12:05 PM Because celestials are the incarnation of good, they may get a little self-rightous. They may start thinking they can do no wrong. So when they're fighting the devil they were sent to the material plane to destroy, and the spell they cast misses it's target and slams into the orphanage, they'll likely be rather devastated. The devil now begins to taunt and tempt the celestial, adding to the doubt the celestial is feeling. The devil then returns the the hells. The celestial returns to Cesestia, and has a choice: confess everything that happened, face the contempt from the other celestials, and possibly receive an attonement spell. Or, the celestial keeps what happened to himself, and continues on with a certin degree of disillusionment. Should the celestial take the second path, it may be less moral in future excursions to the material plane, doing whatever it takes to accomplish its missions.

Skip ahead a century or so. The original devil has returned to the material plane. He's been watching our ceseltial all this time. He finds himself a lair, and fills it with mirrors or whatnot replaying the images of the celestial over the years, of the people that have been harmed in the celestial's various quests for justice. And, most importantly, that orphanage burning to the ground. The celestial shows up. He and the demon begin to fight, surounded by the celestial's failings. From this point, it's not too hard for the demon to tempt the celestial and compleatly subvert the celestial's belief that he is a force for good. As a DM, I would probably shift the celestial's alignment to neutral and take away any spell-like or supernatural abilities, to represent the loss of the celestial's connection to good. The devil collects the broken celestial and carts it off to the hells for re-education. Once the celestial is fully evil, I would return the lost abilities, possibly swaping some of them(daylight for darkness, for example).
TyraaloftheFist
07-31-05, 04:39 PM I'd rule that they couldn't knowingly commit an evil act unless they succeeded on a difficult Will save, although for every evil act the DC would lower...of course, there'd need to be some method of determining the DC, probably by somehow measuring 'Good' points or something. Maybe the DC=The creature's Honor score or their HD? Hm. And then there might need to be something that would eventually happen if they completely went evil, like turning into a demon or something. The Will save would need to be succeeded upon because...well, they have to force themselves TO do it, rather than keeping themselves from NOT doing it. Also, it sort of represents the whole 'power corrupts' thing, and that the more powerful something is, the more likely it is to believe that it has the only solution and to act on that belief, along with the possibility that it'll dabble in badness, somehow justifying such an act to itself. The reason the really high celestials are really high is that they either avoided succeeding on those saves, never had to make those saves by never trying to commit an evil act, or managed to bounce back to good very thoroughly and become even better. Or something.

Er...anyway, yeah, I'd say they could, if they could force themselves to do so, either by justifying it as 'for the greater good', not thinking at all, or going absolutely nuts and not caring that they were being bad. All of these are unlikely, although the first one, in my opinion, is less so. And they'd still have to roll something.
pita
07-31-05, 05:04 PM I'd say celestials were free to chose how they go. If a female-lookalike celestial becomes evil it becomes an erinyes. if anything else i'd have to say balor/pit fiend/something equally evil. Somebody really should make a fallen celestial template.
Sildatorak
07-31-05, 06:40 PM One must always remember that archons and eladrin are not only (Good). Sometimes the alignment subtypes of a celestial will come into conflict. An archon forced to choose between CG and LE actions is in a heck of a dillema.
BloodGod
07-31-05, 07:43 PM I do believe the 3.5 Monster Manual says in the description of Erinyes that they are rumored to be fallen angels. Personally, I think the idea of a fallen angel is freakin' awesome. Regardless of if you're playing one or fighting one, it's cool either way.

-BG
The Vorpal Tribble
07-31-05, 07:52 PM An angel turned to evil to rape and slaughter and torture is 'cool'? :uh-huh:
the Horc
07-31-05, 10:14 PM I personally am in the camp that the idea that Erinyes as fallen angels is simply fiendish propaganda. They are of the Baatezu subtype, and don't Baatezu have the same origin?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 07-29-05, 06:41 PM	I was thinking, good outsiders are the embodiment of all that is good. Good given given form and solidity. Being literally made of good can they actually do evil? As far as I can tell a good outsider doing anything evil would be like negative energy healing living folks. Its not only repugnant to them, but physically and mentally I would think they were incapable of it. They are MADE of the concept of good.
Purkake 07-29-05, 06:57 PM	Waits for another interesting and educating essey from Shemmy What? I don't know, ask Shemmy ;)
Callahan 07-29-05, 07:07 PM	is it physically possible? Yes. Is it likely to happen? No. An angel can sin, but it is very OOC.
The Vorpal Tribble 07-29-05, 07:12 PM	is it physically possible? Yes. Well, I mean, killing an innocent would be a sin. But if it was an accident or done out of ignorance or some such they weren't aware they did it and so isn't really a sin because if they had known about it they would never have done it.
Kingrames 07-29-05, 09:08 PM	evil begets evil. if some random deva accidentally fell in with the wrong crowd and was tricked into fighting for them, or "gaslighted" (see ravenloft), there's a definite possibility of a fall from grace.
The Vorpal Tribble 07-29-05, 09:51 PM	But... how can you fall from grace if you are MADE of grace? I'm just using D&D stuff here. If you are literally good carnate how can you become ungood anymore than I can become silicon based?
The_Rose 07-29-05, 09:57 PM	this raises several interesting points, some of which extend out of D&D and into the very nature of good and evil. If a being of pure good, MADE OUT OF the essence of "good", one could assume that it would be physically incapable of consciously commiting evil. But, should the situation arise in which a good outsider accidentally comits an evil act, does that constitute a fall from grace? Is mishap evil? If so, it would also be impossible for a good outside to be mistaken, given the nature of their type, so logically, it could be said that while an outsider (good) could not actually commit evil, any unintentional evil would not be cause for damnation. However, I expect that a very big atonement would be in order.
Gurv 07-29-05, 11:03 PM	I think that there are a few things you are overlooking. A single act of evil does not automatically make you evil. Becoming evil requires either conscious effort or disaffection with the concept of good. As long as any creature truly seeks to do only good, it cannot become evil no matter the result of it's attempt. A creature of pure good, however, knows the difference, and is unlikely to make mistakes unless it is tricked or its hand is forced (a situation of Lesser Evils, see below). Unlike a mortal, a good outsider is made of Good and is therefore well aware of when something it is doing crosses the line; no creature understands good as it does, so if it can't tell the difference, then it is unlikely that we could. So, the only way a celestial would do evil is if it is tricked into it. Most celestials are well trained (spending the earlier part of eternity on it) in how to avoid such pitfalls and are unlikely to fall for a simple ruse. When they do get tricked into something evil, the evil act itself is actually the responsibility of the one doing the misleading. If, for some reason, blame can be placed on the celestial, it truly is an honest mistake and can likely be atoned for with only the slightest smear on its purity. In any case, a proper celestial will be deeply upset about it's involvement in such a thing, and seek forgiveness no matter how at fault it really is. The other situation where celestials are known to commit evil is what I refer to as Lesser Evils, as in "any situation where the only option is to take the lesser of two (or more) evils". In this case, there is no choice but to allow some evil act to take place. The best a celestial can do is try to minimize the evil that is done, and be willing to suffer the consequences even if it means Falling or the loss of other powers (ironically, such self-sacrifice is itself a good act). Better yet, wise gods and DMs recognize that in such morally ambiguous situations the entirety of the blame should fall on the one who created it, or upon themselves for allowing it to happen in the first place. Minor Rant The problem with Lesser Evils is that they are caused by moral ambiguity. That suggests that it is possible for a situation to exist in which it is impossible to determine good from evil. This possibility apparently exists in the real world. But what a DM should consider is that in a universe where creatures of pure good can exist, where both good and evil can be quantified, there really can't be moral ambiguity, because you can actually measure those things. It is unfair to a celestial, or a paladin for that matter, to place him in a situation where there is no choice but to commit evil. Both celestials and paladins presuppose a reality in which good and evil are quantifiable; if the DM is willing to accept that then he should be willing to accept that it is his responsibility to see that the rest of that reality follows suit. Therefore, in a reality where paladins exist, there cannot be a situation where they can not choose the right course of action. The last situation of celestials committing an evil act likely occurs when a celestial is not perfectly pure to begin with, or is somehow exposed to evil in such a way as to maim that purity. This is incredibly rare, a phenomenon of morality. Just as chaos eventually produces a result that is "ideally orderly", or order develops a "perfectly random method," it is possible for someone to become so good that they are twisted to evil. The most common example is a celestial who becomes corrupted by pride in its own perfection. It is also possible to sully ones own purity by seeking to avoid contact with anything that is impure; this mistake results in one allowing evil to exist because of an unwillingness to be involved enough to stop it. The only thing more rare than pure good being twisted to evil in this way is the concept of something so evil that it becomes good. No such events have been documented.
MinusInnocence 07-30-05, 01:53 AM	I agree Good outsiders are a corporeal embodiment of the all that is Good. They aren't simply a creature one might say has a few "good" qualities; if Good had two legs and a shiny sword, it would look like a Good outsider. Having said that, they are a SENTIENT corporeal embodiment of all that is Good. I do think they are fallible simply because they can feel emotions, which sometimes cloud judgment; furthermore, not being omnipotent, they come into existence not already having everything which they might conceivably desire. This can also lead to messy situations. I do think it is exceptionally difficult, though, for an Outsider to "sin." It sounds like the sort of thing entire civilizations who lived to tell the tale of it would probably have legends and songs and art depicting the event (or, more likely, series of events). I'm reminded of a small section in the Book of Vile Darkness. Now, just like the Book of Exalted Deeds, most of it was pretty cheesy but this particular piece of it was interesting, if not actually useful: it was about the varying degrees by which we can describe Evil events, and the effects such events might have in the Prime material plane. Things like 1,000 babies being impaled on spears simultaneously or an Evil god being born or... well, I would think a Good outsider falling from grace should count here. Y'know, cosmic scales tipping and all that jazz. Something I've always had a problem wrapping my head around... Celestials are from the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, right? Well, I think each layer of Celestia is infinite. Does this mean there are an infinite number of Celestials? They don't have to eat or sleep or even breathe so I would imagine they don't take up a lot of space. In the Monster Manual, creature with the Alignment descriptor of "Always" are said to be capable of swaying from this Alignment, but such exceptions are "one in a million." What does that phrase even mean when you're talking about an infinite number of beings? Ugh. Oh well, weird stuff they probably didn't wrack their brains over when they wrote the Core rules.
Fiery_Overlord 07-30-05, 04:08 PM	I would say yes angels can comit evil acts but in doing so I believe it would tansform them. If good isn't good anymore then what is it? The obvious answer is evil. I have seen referances to fallen celestials (ie Erinyes) and I believe that is an example of this principle. I think outsiders with alignments subtypes would be exceptions to the exception in alignment.
Domriso 07-30-05, 09:52 PM	Yes according to the one demon (or devil, i can't remeber which) a celestial can fall from grace and become evil. This is also the case of the one weapon of legacy that has two sides, one being the path of the angel, the othe the path of the fallen angel.
Dartanel 07-30-05, 10:15 PM	Think of it this way, Good outsiders are defined by goodness the way living creatures are defined by being alive. Thus, the urge to do good would be as powerful in them as the survival instinct is in us. So a sentient good outsider committing an evil act would be on the level of a human being killing themselves. It would require that degree of duress.
Fiery_Overlord 07-30-05, 10:18 PM	Think of it this way, Good outsiders are defined by goodness the way living creatures are defined by being alive. Thus, the urge to do good would be as powerful in them as the survival instinct is in us. So a sentient good outsider committing an evil act would be on the level of a human being killing themselves. It would require that degree of duress. That is a fair analogy, following that logic the result of a good outsider being evil would no longer being a good outsider but an evil outsider like the transformation of life to undeath.
xver 07-31-05, 06:45 AM	Yes, they can. They are not perfect. They make mistakes. The lower thier mental stats, the more likely a fall from grace is. Also remember that anything with an Int over 3 has free will. It can do as it pleases. It can change it's alignment even if the MM says "always". The idea of a Dark Angel is a fundamental type. In many RL cosmologies demons and devils are mearly fallen angels. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course, most celestials sin rarely. Have mostly minor transgressions and repent whole heartedly. However, the more capricous can fall compleatly. Many a paladin has taken the dark path. Suductive is the darkside to the unwary. So to have the higher lights gone dim. For all are unworthy in some respect. The worst of them get exiled and often end up fighting in the blood war or somehow make thier way to a material plane. Once they find an new place, they find their carisma and beguiling looks can make people think all the wrong things about them. Dark angels could deal a fortune in dirty deeds in a city like the cage. You'd better belive it's possible. [ I usually don't preach like that, but you asked. Oh and Incubi and Sucubi where born for this. ]
bgt 07-31-05, 12:05 PM	Because celestials are the incarnation of good, they may get a little self-rightous. They may start thinking they can do no wrong. So when they're fighting the devil they were sent to the material plane to destroy, and the spell they cast misses it's target and slams into the orphanage, they'll likely be rather devastated. The devil now begins to taunt and tempt the celestial, adding to the doubt the celestial is feeling. The devil then returns the the hells. The celestial returns to Cesestia, and has a choice: confess everything that happened, face the contempt from the other celestials, and possibly receive an attonement spell. Or, the celestial keeps what happened to himself, and continues on with a certin degree of disillusionment. Should the celestial take the second path, it may be less moral in future excursions to the material plane, doing whatever it takes to accomplish its missions. Skip ahead a century or so. The original devil has returned to the material plane. He's been watching our ceseltial all this time. He finds himself a lair, and fills it with mirrors or whatnot replaying the images of the celestial over the years, of the people that have been harmed in the celestial's various quests for justice. And, most importantly, that orphanage burning to the ground. The celestial shows up. He and the demon begin to fight, surounded by the celestial's failings. From this point, it's not too hard for the demon to tempt the celestial and compleatly subvert the celestial's belief that he is a force for good. As a DM, I would probably shift the celestial's alignment to neutral and take away any spell-like or supernatural abilities, to represent the loss of the celestial's connection to good. The devil collects the broken celestial and carts it off to the hells for re-education. Once the celestial is fully evil, I would return the lost abilities, possibly swaping some of them(daylight for darkness, for example).
TyraaloftheFist 07-31-05, 04:39 PM	I'd rule that they couldn't knowingly commit an evil act unless they succeeded on a difficult Will save, although for every evil act the DC would lower...of course, there'd need to be some method of determining the DC, probably by somehow measuring 'Good' points or something. Maybe the DC=The creature's Honor score or their HD? Hm. And then there might need to be something that would eventually happen if they completely went evil, like turning into a demon or something. The Will save would need to be succeeded upon because...well, they have to force themselves TO do it, rather than keeping themselves from NOT doing it. Also, it sort of represents the whole 'power corrupts' thing, and that the more powerful something is, the more likely it is to believe that it has the only solution and to act on that belief, along with the possibility that it'll dabble in badness, somehow justifying such an act to itself. The reason the really high celestials are really high is that they either avoided succeeding on those saves, never had to make those saves by never trying to commit an evil act, or managed to bounce back to good very thoroughly and become even better. Or something. Er...anyway, yeah, I'd say they could, if they could force themselves to do so, either by justifying it as 'for the greater good', not thinking at all, or going absolutely nuts and not caring that they were being bad. All of these are unlikely, although the first one, in my opinion, is less so. And they'd still have to roll something.
pita 07-31-05, 05:04 PM	I'd say celestials were free to chose how they go. If a female-lookalike celestial becomes evil it becomes an erinyes. if anything else i'd have to say balor/pit fiend/something equally evil. Somebody really should make a fallen celestial template.
Sildatorak 07-31-05, 06:40 PM	One must always remember that archons and eladrin are not only (Good). Sometimes the alignment subtypes of a celestial will come into conflict. An archon forced to choose between CG and LE actions is in a heck of a dillema.
BloodGod 07-31-05, 07:43 PM	I do believe the 3.5 Monster Manual says in the description of Erinyes that they are rumored to be fallen angels. Personally, I think the idea of a fallen angel is freakin' awesome. Regardless of if you're playing one or fighting one, it's cool either way. -BG
The Vorpal Tribble 07-31-05, 07:52 PM	An angel turned to evil to rape and slaughter and torture is 'cool'? :uh-huh:
the Horc 07-31-05, 10:14 PM	I personally am in the camp that the idea that Erinyes as fallen angels is simply fiendish propaganda. They are of the Baatezu subtype, and don't Baatezu have the same origin?