Can Positive effect Negative? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Positive effect Negative? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HighPriestMikhal
07-09-07, 06:43 PM In the Book of Exalted Deeds the deathless type was introduced. Like an undead creature, they're no longer alive but they are powered by positive energy. In the description of the type, it says they are subject to negative levels--I would assume from negative energy attacks like a wight's touch or the enervation and energy drain spells. This implies that undead are subject to negative levels from positive energy effects. Negative energy displaces the positive energy in a creature (represented by ability damage or drain and level drain), so it fits that positive would displace negative. To put it simply, if deathless can be drained by negative energy, undead should also be drained by positive energy (restoration spells, for example).

Along with this comes a flood of other questions. Do positive energy spells like the various restoration spells "augment" living and deathless when used on them at full health, as negative energy spells augment undead? Can an undead creature with ability damage or drain (say, from positoxins or spells) use enervation to restore their ability scores or level drain? Can those that channel negative energy brew "negatoxins" to use against deathless? Does a deathless with a positive energy touch attack cause damage or drain an undead creature's abilities or levels/HD?

I would say, "yes to all of them." But that's just me. Any constructive comments?
Aleolus
07-09-07, 06:48 PM ...You know, I had never thought along those lines before, but that does make perfect sense. We should ask WotC directly, and get them to publish that officially in their books from now on, such as Libris Mortis.
420
07-09-07, 06:53 PM Do positive energy spells like the various restoration spells "augment" living and deathless when used on them at full health, as negative energy spells augment undead?

In Manual of the Planes the ambient positive energy of the Positive Energy Plane can fill a PC past their max hit points until they burst. So I can see a precedent for allowing spells to "fill" people with positive energy past their normal limits. However, just be careful not to pump too much in or... KABLAMO!

-420
HighPriestMikhal
07-09-07, 07:03 PM Thanks for the reminder, 420. Can undead be overfilled with negative energy to the point that they explode as living do in major positive-dominant areas? If so, that certainly would cut back on the number of undead actually present on the Negative Energy Plane...
420
07-09-07, 07:26 PM The MotP describes the Negative Energy Plane as "a hospitable home for the undead" and nothing about them exploding.

I would suspect that incorporeal undead don't need to worry about it. Maybe corporeal undead naturally decay, constantly radiating negative energy and being on the Negative Energy Plane creates some kind of balance.

There is a ton of evidence of even the most powerful corporeal undead decaying over long periods of time, such as liches becoming demiliches.

-420
snakeman830
07-10-07, 10:58 AM There is a ton of evidence of even the most powerful corporeal undead decaying over long periods of time, such as liches becoming demiliches.

-420

That's not what I'd call "decay".
420
07-10-07, 01:10 PM That's not what I'd call "decay".

Thank you for that insightful statement Dr. Thesaurus.

-420
snakeman830
07-10-07, 02:40 PM Thank you for that insightful statement Dr. Thesaurus.

-420

Decay indicates becoming weaker. Lich to Demilich is not getting weaker.

Do you have "thesauraus" and "relatively common knowlege" confused?
420
07-10-07, 03:46 PM Do you have "thesauraus" and "relatively common knowlege" confused?
No, but you seem to have "relatively common knowlege" and "ignorance" confused.

AD&D Monster Manual II (pg. 32, 33)
Ultimately, even the undead life force of a lich begins to wane. Over the centuries the lich form decays, and the evil soul roams strange planes unknown to even the wisest sages.

Merriam-Webster (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decay)

1: to decline from a sound or prosperous condition
2: to decrease usually gradually in size, quantity, activity, or force
3: to fall into ruin
4: to decline in health, strength, or vigor
5: to undergo decomposition

-420
snakeman830
07-10-07, 03:59 PM Ignorance, huh?

Demilich
Size/Type: Diminutive Undead
Hit Dice: 21d12+3 (139 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: Fly 180 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 51 (+4 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural armor, +8 bracers of armor, +2 ring of protection, +21 insight)
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/-2
Attack: Touch +35 melee (10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch)
Full Attack: Touch +35 melee (10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Trap the soul, fear aura, paralyzing touch, 21st-level wizard spellcaster, Perfect Automatic Still Spell, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Magic immunity, phylactery transference, turn resistance +20, DR 15/Epic and bludgeoning, undead traits, acid resistance 20, fire resistance 20, sonic resistance 20, immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +17
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16 (with gloves), Con Ų, Int 39 (with headband), Wis 24, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +25, Craft (alchemy) +34, Hide +35, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes) +34, Knowledge (history) +26, Listen +27, Move Silently +23, Search +34, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +36, Spot +27
Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Enlarge Spell, Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Toughness
Epic Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell, Blinding Speed, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Tenacious Magic (any)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 29
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: By character class

Demiliches speak the languages they knew as liches and as living creatures.

A demilich’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Combat
Trap the Soul (Su)
A demilich can trap the souls of up to eight living creatures per day. To use this power, it selects any target it can see within 300 feet. The target is allowed a Fortitude saving throw (DC 36). If the target makes its saving throw, it gains four negative levels (this does not count as a use of trap the soul). If the target fails its save, the soul of the target is instantly drawn from its body and trapped within one of the gems incorporated into the demilich’s form. The gem gleams for 24 hours, indicating the captive soul within. The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust. If left to its own devices, the demilich slowly devours the soul over 24 hours—at the end of that time the soul is completely absorbed, and the victim is forever gone. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle. A potential victim protected by a death ward spell is not immune to trap the soul, but receives a +5 bonus on its Fortitude saving throw and is effective against the level loss on a successful save. The DC is Charisma-based

Fear Aura (Su)
Demiliches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the demilich must succeed at a Will save (DC 19) or be affected as though by fear as cast by a 21st-level caster. The DC is Charisma-based.

Paralyzing Touch (Su)
Any living creature a demilich touches must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 36) or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim. The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a demilich seems dead, though a successful Spot check (DC 20) or Heal check (DC 15) reveals that the victim is still alive.

Spells
The demilich can cast any spells it could cast as a lich. This sample demilich was a 21st-level wizard (spells per day: 4/12/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/3). The last three spell slots are 10th-level slots and available for 0-9th level metamagic spells.

Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex)
A demilich can cast all the spells it knows without gestures.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—astral projection, create greater undead, create undead, death knell, enervation, greater dispel magic, harm (usually used to heal itself), summon monster I-IX, telekinesis, weird; 2/day—greater planar ally. Demiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are all 36. The DC is Charisma-based.

Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

Phylactery Transference (Su)
Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply. The sample demilich “wears” bracers of armor +8, headband of intellect +6, pink Ioun stone, ring of wizardry I, ring of protection +2, and gloves of Dexterity +2.

Undead Traits
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive dam-age, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing.

Immunities (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.

Ready to try again?
Archangel_Tyrael
07-10-07, 04:17 PM Ignorance, huh?

Ready to try again?

Snakeman, no. :nonono:

The two of you are arguing two different things: you believe that decay means that the Lich becomes less powerful. 420 is using the word decay meaning: "body parts falling off the lich at random times", which eventually turns the Lich into a Demilich.

It's obvious that the Demilich is the more powerful creature, however, it's also very obvious from the quoted text out of the MMII that a Demilich is what remains when "the Lich form decays".

You're both correct, the Lich is simultaneously decaying and not decaying. Neither one of you are more correct, but you are completely derailing a very good thread with a good point, so stop it! :mad:
snakeman830
07-10-07, 09:54 PM Snakeman, no. :nonono:

The two of you are arguing two different things: you believe that decay means that the Lich becomes less powerful. 420 is using the word decay meaning: "body parts falling off the lich at random times", which eventually turns the Lich into a Demilich.

It's obvious that the Demilich is the more powerful creature, however, it's also very obvious from the quoted text out of the MMII that a Demilich is what remains when "the Lich form decays".

You're both correct, the Lich is simultaneously decaying and not decaying. Neither one of you are more correct, but you are completely derailing a very good thread with a good point, so stop it! :mad:

It's a good thing I'm not looking at a career as a lawyer, because I'm stopping. (though the body parts all fall off at once and not every lich becomes a demilich)
Archangel_Tyrael
07-10-07, 11:40 PM Let's see if we can bring this thread back to life. :rimshot:

The MotP describes the Negative Energy Plane as "a hospitable home for the undead" and nothing about them exploding.

There's a difference between how the Positive Energy Plane and Negative Energy Plane operate: the Positive Energy Plane gives Fast Healing and the Negative Energy Plane gives negative levels to living beings. Since undead can't be given negative levels, however, the NEP would indeed be a hospitable place for them to live. That's the rules reason for why they don't explode, anyway.

On a different note, why is there no such thing as "Positive Levels"? Temporary Hit Points go halfway there--so do buffs like Prayer. Why not have any spells that have the opposite effects of a Negative Level, with the effects disappearing with time?
LordFlatulence
07-11-07, 09:22 AM There's a difference between how the Positive Energy Plane and Negative Energy Plane operate: the Positive Energy Plane gives Fast Healing and the Negative Energy Plane gives negative levels to living beings. Since undead can't be given negative levels, however, the NEP would indeed be a hospitable place for them to live. That's the rules reason for why they don't explode, anyway.

It would seem to have made more sense if the positive and negative energy planes were opposites of each other. However, as undead and the living are not so much opposites as much as very different creatures, I guess this was not possible.

A friend of mine was wondering about how positive energy effects would affect undead. It seems that unless these effects already have a listed numerical value for how much positive energy they affect a target with, they simply don't affect the undead. Also, said friend considered that negative levels (as per enervation and such) should have some sort of positive affect on undead, as opposed to just doing nothing. Temporary hit points does seem to be about as opposite as one gets to negative levels - but how many would an enervation or energy drain inflict? Perhaps for each negative level the undead rolls it Hit Die (d12) and gains that as temporary hit points for a number of rounds equal to the number of negative levels?

As for liches decaying into demiliches, I thought when an undead lasted long enough it simply gained the "Evolved" template every hundred years or so, as opposed to having bits of them fall off. Is there such a creature as the Demizombie? Imagine a rotting human head bouncing around after you menacingly quoting that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the black knight as a torso. :D
snakeman830
07-11-07, 09:54 AM A friend of mine was wondering about how positive energy effects would affect undead. It seems that unless these effects already have a listed numerical value for how much positive energy they affect a target with, they simply don't affect the undead. Also, said friend considered that negative levels (as per enervation and such) should have some sort of positive affect on undead, as opposed to just doing nothing. Temporary hit points does seem to be about as opposite as one gets to negative levels - but how many would an enervation or energy drain inflict? Perhaps for each negative level the undead rolls it Hit Die (d12) and gains that as temporary hit points for a number of rounds equal to the number of negative levels?

It's written somewhere that negative levels instead grant 5 temporary hp to undead, but I can't remember where. I think it's in Eneveration's spell description.
LordFlatulence
07-11-07, 11:04 AM It's written somewhere that negative levels instead grant 5 temporary hp to undead, but I can't remember where. I think it's in Eneveration's spell description.

Aha! Just checked - enervation gives an undead d4x5 temporary hit points and energy drain give an undead 2d4x5 temporary hit points. These hit points last for 1 hour. This amounts to 5 temporary hit points per negative level, but is not listed as such. Therefore, it is only with these spells (as far as I am aware) that undead gain temporary hit points through negative levels. Of course, most DMs will likely assume that this will carry over, and allow the conversion for undead that 1 negative level = 5 temporary hit points.
snakeman830
07-11-07, 11:07 AM Aha! Just checked - enervation gives an undead d4x5 temporary hit points and energy drain give an undead 2d4x5 temporary hit points. These hit points last for 1 hour. This amounts to 5 temporary hit points per negative level, but is not listed as such. Therefore, it is only with these spells (as far as I am aware) that undead gain temporary hit points through negative levels. Of course, most DMs will likely assume that this will carry over, and allow the conversion for undead that 1 negative level = 5 temporary hit points.

Making the Lifedrinker weapon in the DMG doubly useful for undead wielders. Not only does it severely hurt their opponent, but it also gives them temp hp.
420
07-11-07, 12:31 PM Is there such a creature as the Demizombie? Imagine a rotting human head bouncing around after you menacingly quoting that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the black knight as a torso.
That's not too far from the description of a "demizombie" actually.

Manual of the Planes (pg. 106) Minethys, Sand Tombs of Payratheon
Also mentioned are the remnants of former inhabitants that force their way through the streets as petrified undead, so weathered and eroded that little can be discerned of their race or original size.

There are also the zombie servants of the Dustmen in Planescape: Torment that, despite constant restitching and applications of formaldehyde, eventually decay into skeletal servants.

-420
HighPriestMikhal
07-11-07, 01:30 PM It would seem to have made more sense if the positive and negative energy planes were opposites of each other. However, as undead and the living are not so much opposites as much as very different creatures, I guess this was not possible.

Under the original supposition, undead would suffer the same penalties for being in minor- and major-positive dominant areas as the living are in negative-dominant without protection. Thus undead in a minor-positive dominant area suffer 1d6 damage per round (no save). In major areas, they gain negative levels (again, no save). In fact, under this "variant" the Positive and Negative planes are polar opposites--assuming they aren't considered such already by the canon material.
HighPriestMikhal
05-13-08, 03:50 PM :bump:

Given that 4e is only weeks away I thought it time to revisit this topic. I'll be posting a discussion in the Deities and Planes board on the differences between postive and negative energy as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HighPriestMikhal 07-09-07, 06:43 PM	In the Book of Exalted Deeds the deathless type was introduced. Like an undead creature, they're no longer alive but they are powered by positive energy. In the description of the type, it says they are subject to negative levels--I would assume from negative energy attacks like a wight's touch or the enervation and energy drain spells. This implies that undead are subject to negative levels from positive energy effects. Negative energy displaces the positive energy in a creature (represented by ability damage or drain and level drain), so it fits that positive would displace negative. To put it simply, if deathless can be drained by negative energy, undead should also be drained by positive energy (restoration spells, for example). Along with this comes a flood of other questions. Do positive energy spells like the various restoration spells "augment" living and deathless when used on them at full health, as negative energy spells augment undead? Can an undead creature with ability damage or drain (say, from positoxins or spells) use enervation to restore their ability scores or level drain? Can those that channel negative energy brew "negatoxins" to use against deathless? Does a deathless with a positive energy touch attack cause damage or drain an undead creature's abilities or levels/HD? I would say, "yes to all of them." But that's just me. Any constructive comments?
Aleolus 07-09-07, 06:48 PM	...You know, I had never thought along those lines before, but that does make perfect sense. We should ask WotC directly, and get them to publish that officially in their books from now on, such as Libris Mortis.
420 07-09-07, 06:53 PM	Do positive energy spells like the various restoration spells "augment" living and deathless when used on them at full health, as negative energy spells augment undead? In Manual of the Planes the ambient positive energy of the Positive Energy Plane can fill a PC past their max hit points until they burst. So I can see a precedent for allowing spells to "fill" people with positive energy past their normal limits. However, just be careful not to pump too much in or... KABLAMO! -420
HighPriestMikhal 07-09-07, 07:03 PM	Thanks for the reminder, 420. Can undead be overfilled with negative energy to the point that they explode as living do in major positive-dominant areas? If so, that certainly would cut back on the number of undead actually present on the Negative Energy Plane...
420 07-09-07, 07:26 PM	The MotP describes the Negative Energy Plane as "a hospitable home for the undead" and nothing about them exploding. I would suspect that incorporeal undead don't need to worry about it. Maybe corporeal undead naturally decay, constantly radiating negative energy and being on the Negative Energy Plane creates some kind of balance. There is a ton of evidence of even the most powerful corporeal undead decaying over long periods of time, such as liches becoming demiliches. -420
snakeman830 07-10-07, 10:58 AM	There is a ton of evidence of even the most powerful corporeal undead decaying over long periods of time, such as liches becoming demiliches. -420 That's not what I'd call "decay".
420 07-10-07, 01:10 PM	That's not what I'd call "decay". Thank you for that insightful statement Dr. Thesaurus. -420
snakeman830 07-10-07, 02:40 PM	Thank you for that insightful statement Dr. Thesaurus. -420 Decay indicates becoming weaker. Lich to Demilich is not getting weaker. Do you have "thesauraus" and "relatively common knowlege" confused?
420 07-10-07, 03:46 PM	Do you have "thesauraus" and "relatively common knowlege" confused? No, but you seem to have "relatively common knowlege" and "ignorance" confused. AD&D Monster Manual II (pg. 32, 33) Ultimately, even the undead life force of a lich begins to wane. Over the centuries the lich form decays, and the evil soul roams strange planes unknown to even the wisest sages. Merriam-Webster (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decay) 1: to decline from a sound or prosperous condition 2: to decrease usually gradually in size, quantity, activity, or force 3: to fall into ruin 4: to decline in health, strength, or vigor 5: to undergo decomposition -420
snakeman830 07-10-07, 03:59 PM	Ignorance, huh? Demilich Size/Type: Diminutive Undead Hit Dice: 21d12+3 (139 hp) Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative) Speed: Fly 180 ft. (perfect) Armor Class: 51 (+4 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural armor, +8 bracers of armor, +2 ring of protection, +21 insight) Base Attack/Grapple: +10/-2 Attack: Touch +35 melee (10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch) Full Attack: Touch +35 melee (10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch) Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: Trap the soul, fear aura, paralyzing touch, 21st-level wizard spellcaster, Perfect Automatic Still Spell, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Magic immunity, phylactery transference, turn resistance +20, DR 15/Epic and bludgeoning, undead traits, acid resistance 20, fire resistance 20, sonic resistance 20, immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks. Saves: Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +17 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16 (with gloves), Con Ų, Int 39 (with headband), Wis 24, Cha 20 Skills: Concentration +25, Craft (alchemy) +34, Hide +35, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes) +34, Knowledge (history) +26, Listen +27, Move Silently +23, Search +34, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +36, Spot +27 Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Enlarge Spell, Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Toughness Epic Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell, Blinding Speed, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Tenacious Magic (any) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 29 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Neutral evil Advancement: By character class Demiliches speak the languages they knew as liches and as living creatures. A demilich’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Combat Trap the Soul (Su) A demilich can trap the souls of up to eight living creatures per day. To use this power, it selects any target it can see within 300 feet. The target is allowed a Fortitude saving throw (DC 36). If the target makes its saving throw, it gains four negative levels (this does not count as a use of trap the soul). If the target fails its save, the soul of the target is instantly drawn from its body and trapped within one of the gems incorporated into the demilich’s form. The gem gleams for 24 hours, indicating the captive soul within. The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust. If left to its own devices, the demilich slowly devours the soul over 24 hours—at the end of that time the soul is completely absorbed, and the victim is forever gone. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle. A potential victim protected by a death ward spell is not immune to trap the soul, but receives a +5 bonus on its Fortitude saving throw and is effective against the level loss on a successful save. The DC is Charisma-based Fear Aura (Su) Demiliches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the demilich must succeed at a Will save (DC 19) or be affected as though by fear as cast by a 21st-level caster. The DC is Charisma-based. Paralyzing Touch (Su) Any living creature a demilich touches must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 36) or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim. The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a demilich seems dead, though a successful Spot check (DC 20) or Heal check (DC 15) reveals that the victim is still alive. Spells The demilich can cast any spells it could cast as a lich. This sample demilich was a 21st-level wizard (spells per day: 4/12/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/3). The last three spell slots are 10th-level slots and available for 0-9th level metamagic spells. Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex) A demilich can cast all the spells it knows without gestures. Spell-Like Abilities At will—astral projection, create greater undead, create undead, death knell, enervation, greater dispel magic, harm (usually used to heal itself), summon monster I-IX, telekinesis, weird; 2/day—greater planar ally. Demiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are all 36. The DC is Charisma-based. Magic Immunity (Ex) Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally. Phylactery Transference (Su) Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply. The sample demilich “wears” bracers of armor +8, headband of intellect +6, pink Ioun stone, ring of wizardry I, ring of protection +2, and gloves of Dexterity +2. Undead Traits Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive dam-age, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing. Immunities (Ex) Demiliches are immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks. Ready to try again?
Archangel_Tyrael 07-10-07, 04:17 PM	Ignorance, huh? Ready to try again? Snakeman, no. :nonono: The two of you are arguing two different things: you believe that decay means that the Lich becomes less powerful. 420 is using the word decay meaning: "body parts falling off the lich at random times", which eventually turns the Lich into a Demilich. It's obvious that the Demilich is the more powerful creature, however, it's also very obvious from the quoted text out of the MMII that a Demilich is what remains when "the Lich form decays". You're both correct, the Lich is simultaneously decaying and not decaying. Neither one of you are more correct, but you are completely derailing a very good thread with a good point, so stop it! :mad:
snakeman830 07-10-07, 09:54 PM	Snakeman, no. :nonono: The two of you are arguing two different things: you believe that decay means that the Lich becomes less powerful. 420 is using the word decay meaning: "body parts falling off the lich at random times", which eventually turns the Lich into a Demilich. It's obvious that the Demilich is the more powerful creature, however, it's also very obvious from the quoted text out of the MMII that a Demilich is what remains when "the Lich form decays". You're both correct, the Lich is simultaneously decaying and not decaying. Neither one of you are more correct, but you are completely derailing a very good thread with a good point, so stop it! :mad: It's a good thing I'm not looking at a career as a lawyer, because I'm stopping. (though the body parts all fall off at once and not every lich becomes a demilich)
Archangel_Tyrael 07-10-07, 11:40 PM	Let's see if we can bring this thread back to life. :rimshot: The MotP describes the Negative Energy Plane as "a hospitable home for the undead" and nothing about them exploding. There's a difference between how the Positive Energy Plane and Negative Energy Plane operate: the Positive Energy Plane gives Fast Healing and the Negative Energy Plane gives negative levels to living beings. Since undead can't be given negative levels, however, the NEP would indeed be a hospitable place for them to live. That's the rules reason for why they don't explode, anyway. On a different note, why is there no such thing as "Positive Levels"? Temporary Hit Points go halfway there--so do buffs like Prayer. Why not have any spells that have the opposite effects of a Negative Level, with the effects disappearing with time?
LordFlatulence 07-11-07, 09:22 AM	There's a difference between how the Positive Energy Plane and Negative Energy Plane operate: the Positive Energy Plane gives Fast Healing and the Negative Energy Plane gives negative levels to living beings. Since undead can't be given negative levels, however, the NEP would indeed be a hospitable place for them to live. That's the rules reason for why they don't explode, anyway. It would seem to have made more sense if the positive and negative energy planes were opposites of each other. However, as undead and the living are not so much opposites as much as very different creatures, I guess this was not possible. A friend of mine was wondering about how positive energy effects would affect undead. It seems that unless these effects already have a listed numerical value for how much positive energy they affect a target with, they simply don't affect the undead. Also, said friend considered that negative levels (as per enervation and such) should have some sort of positive affect on undead, as opposed to just doing nothing. Temporary hit points does seem to be about as opposite as one gets to negative levels - but how many would an enervation or energy drain inflict? Perhaps for each negative level the undead rolls it Hit Die (d12) and gains that as temporary hit points for a number of rounds equal to the number of negative levels? As for liches decaying into demiliches, I thought when an undead lasted long enough it simply gained the "Evolved" template every hundred years or so, as opposed to having bits of them fall off. Is there such a creature as the Demizombie? Imagine a rotting human head bouncing around after you menacingly quoting that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the black knight as a torso. :D
snakeman830 07-11-07, 09:54 AM	A friend of mine was wondering about how positive energy effects would affect undead. It seems that unless these effects already have a listed numerical value for how much positive energy they affect a target with, they simply don't affect the undead. Also, said friend considered that negative levels (as per enervation and such) should have some sort of positive affect on undead, as opposed to just doing nothing. Temporary hit points does seem to be about as opposite as one gets to negative levels - but how many would an enervation or energy drain inflict? Perhaps for each negative level the undead rolls it Hit Die (d12) and gains that as temporary hit points for a number of rounds equal to the number of negative levels? It's written somewhere that negative levels instead grant 5 temporary hp to undead, but I can't remember where. I think it's in Eneveration's spell description.
LordFlatulence 07-11-07, 11:04 AM	It's written somewhere that negative levels instead grant 5 temporary hp to undead, but I can't remember where. I think it's in Eneveration's spell description. Aha! Just checked - enervation gives an undead d4x5 temporary hit points and energy drain give an undead 2d4x5 temporary hit points. These hit points last for 1 hour. This amounts to 5 temporary hit points per negative level, but is not listed as such. Therefore, it is only with these spells (as far as I am aware) that undead gain temporary hit points through negative levels. Of course, most DMs will likely assume that this will carry over, and allow the conversion for undead that 1 negative level = 5 temporary hit points.
snakeman830 07-11-07, 11:07 AM	Aha! Just checked - enervation gives an undead d4x5 temporary hit points and energy drain give an undead 2d4x5 temporary hit points. These hit points last for 1 hour. This amounts to 5 temporary hit points per negative level, but is not listed as such. Therefore, it is only with these spells (as far as I am aware) that undead gain temporary hit points through negative levels. Of course, most DMs will likely assume that this will carry over, and allow the conversion for undead that 1 negative level = 5 temporary hit points. Making the Lifedrinker weapon in the DMG doubly useful for undead wielders. Not only does it severely hurt their opponent, but it also gives them temp hp.
420 07-11-07, 12:31 PM	Is there such a creature as the Demizombie? Imagine a rotting human head bouncing around after you menacingly quoting that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the black knight as a torso. That's not too far from the description of a "demizombie" actually. Manual of the Planes (pg. 106) Minethys, Sand Tombs of Payratheon Also mentioned are the remnants of former inhabitants that force their way through the streets as petrified undead, so weathered and eroded that little can be discerned of their race or original size. There are also the zombie servants of the Dustmen in Planescape: Torment that, despite constant restitching and applications of formaldehyde, eventually decay into skeletal servants. -420
HighPriestMikhal 07-11-07, 01:30 PM	It would seem to have made more sense if the positive and negative energy planes were opposites of each other. However, as undead and the living are not so much opposites as much as very different creatures, I guess this was not possible. Under the original supposition, undead would suffer the same penalties for being in minor- and major-positive dominant areas as the living are in negative-dominant without protection. Thus undead in a minor-positive dominant area suffer 1d6 damage per round (no save). In major areas, they gain negative levels (again, no save). In fact, under this "variant" the Positive and Negative planes are polar opposites--assuming they aren't considered such already by the canon material.
HighPriestMikhal 05-13-08, 03:50 PM	:bump: Given that 4e is only weeks away I thought it time to revisit this topic. I'll be posting a discussion in the Deities and Planes board on the differences between postive and negative energy as well.