can some one explaine to my player that vampires are not born! [Archive] - Wizards Community

can some one explaine to my player that vampires are not born! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rat guy
09-10-03, 06:53 PM He dosent get why vampires arent born he thinks if they got a blood flow they can reproduce but if they dont have a consition they cant he thinks they should. can some one explaine to him........
split infinitude
09-10-03, 07:20 PM There actually is something called a half-vampire - in Faerun, I believe - that implied your player is right. I don't have a cite offhand for you, though.
Zarg1
09-10-03, 07:28 PM You are the Dungon Master. Your player is not. If you say it is so then it is so. It does not matter what the player says. A vampire cannot be born under the core D&D rules unless perhaps you are using the vampire class. See Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) Or if you want them to be able.

In which case it is truly up to you the game master to decide if these part vampires can produce offspring or if they exist at all.

If you are not using this templete then the answer is probably no. A vampire's undead body should logically be incapible of reproduction because it is dead and does not age, grow, or follow the normal cycles of life.
Gez
09-10-03, 10:14 PM The default D&D vampire is made, not born. It's detailed in the template and just reading it should be enough.

Of course it's possible to make alternate vampirisms. It could work as a family curse or as a disease rather than as an unlife.

But default D&D vampires are undead and thus can't be born.
Nei
09-11-03, 06:38 AM Just invite the player over for movie night -theme: vampire movies! Then he'll get the picture, and both of you can have some fun too.

Nei
Addi83
09-11-03, 07:37 AM Vampires cannot actually reproduce, but say they turn a pregnant woman into a vampire, maybe her child also gets turned, or becomes a half-vampire, ala Blade.

According to "Interview with a vampire", if a child gets turned completely, it won´t age, and therefore a fetus would never be born, since it won´t develope the necessary size, organs (or whatever, maybe vampires don´t need that).... a fetal vampire going around killing people...funky
Willie the Duck
09-11-03, 12:54 PM the vampire baby would never get to fetus form, as the embryo would never form. Also: Blade is a different take on vampires, as it assume that vampirism is a disease.

Certain gypsy mythologies suggested that vampires could still father children, called dhampir. These dhampir gained certain abilities that allowed them to better hunt vampires, but also a little of tehir bloodlust. This, again, is not related to D&D core vampires.
Yuffie
09-11-03, 01:27 PM "Blood flow" does not = the capacity to have children.

I don't even think vampires have flowing blood, but it's never addressed for sure (afaik), so hey... DM's caveat. But, they are undead after all, and the undead don't tend to have beating hearts. In truth, vampires in D&D aren't even what most people think of when they think "vampire". They're more like soul-draining essence stealers.

But they are undead.

And in my book, undead = no reproductive functions.

Which is why I'm still at work writing up a more "traditional" vampire template.

However, this can be argued all year long. Try hopping on IRC and asking around in FFRP channels about vampires and babies. Half the folk think it's absolutely stupid, and the other half either don't care, or think that they should be able to. The latter-most group tend to play vampires (who also tend to be daywalkers, immune to all attacks including holy effects, powergaming godmoders, etc), so their opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.
Mordriana the Blood
09-11-03, 01:37 PM Yea, what Willie said. Half-vampires, AKA dhampir, are fairly prominent in Eastern European myth. They had some of the powers of their vampire parent but few of the weaknesses. Sure, the basic DnD cosmology doesn't allow for such things, but I think there is a real-world precident for such ideas. Sure, you don't have to allow it, but your player isn't crazy for thinking it either. Stuff like Blade, Vampire Hunter D, and especially Eastern European mythology have certainly set a precident.

I allowed dhampir PCs in one campaign once, and my players enjoyed it very much. Several played them over the course of the several year-long campaign.

In short, you're both right, but because you're the DM, you have the final say as to if they are allowed in your campaign or not.
Vaalingrade Ashland
09-11-03, 01:47 PM DnD vampires are a hideous hodge podge of Western Vampire, Hopping vampire and Pacific Islander Breathstealers. I'd say the undead thing would inhibit any nastification the vampire would like to do.

I like the vampirism as a disease idea and I think it would be passed from mother to child.
Rotipher
09-11-03, 01:58 PM Originally posted by Addi83
Vampires cannot actually reproduce, but say they turn a pregnant woman into a vampire, maybe her child also gets turned, or becomes a half-vampire, ala Blade.

Actually, there's a long-established Ravenloft character (the lord of Forlorn) whose background was rather similar to the comic book Blade's. His mother was drained of blood by a vampire (her late adventurer husband), who had enough human feeling left not to kill her. She was already pregnant from his previous (non-undead) visit home.

However, the baby became neither an undead vampire, nor "daywalker". Their son seemed fully human at birth, but grew up to became a "vampyre": an unique Ravenloft humanoid that feeds on blood, but is biologically alive. He was an evil creep even as a child, attracted the Dark Powers' interest after murdering some relatives as an adult, and was cursed to shift between forms (ghost by night, vampyre by day IIRC) as a domain lord.

This is the only non-"third party" example of a "half-vampire" in a Ravenloft product, AFAIK.

And FWIW, "Van Richten's Guide to Vampires" -- the definitive D&D sourcebook on the subject, if there ever was one -- tells us that even if vampires are capable of physical intercourse, they cannot sire or conceive offspring.
Rotipher
09-11-03, 02:13 PM Originally posted by Mordriana the Blood
Half-vampires, AKA dhampir, are fairly prominent in Eastern European myth. They had some of the powers of their vampire parent but few of the weaknesses. Sure, the basic DnD cosmology doesn't allow for such things, but I think there is a real-world precident for such ideas.

Either that, or there's precedent for old Eastern European con artists convincing gulible peasents to pay them money to protect them from the "awful vampires", whom the con artists claimed they could detect by virtue of their "heritage".... :-/

Hmmmm... maybe there's a more interesting plotline in *that* idea, than in making dhampirs an actual creature! PCs come to investigate rumored vampire sighting; a self-proclaimed "dhampir" boasts that he's already destroyed the monster; PCs set their holy symbols, mirrors, and garlic aside, so are left vulnerable when the still-active vampire comes after its pursuers; PCs who survive must go on the warpath and track down the NPC whose lies nearly got them slaughtered.
Archeaterius
09-11-03, 04:51 PM Originally posted by Rotipher
Actually, there's a long-established Ravenloft character (the lord of Forlorn) whose background was rather similar to the comic book Blade's. His mother was drained of blood by a vampire (her late adventurer husband), who had enough human feeling left not to kill her. She was already pregnant from his previous (non-undead) visit home.

However, the baby became neither an undead vampire, nor "daywalker". Their son seemed fully human at birth, but grew up to became a "vampyre": an unique Ravenloft humanoid that feeds on blood, but is biologically alive. He was an evil creep even as a child, attracted the Dark Powers' interest after murdering some relatives as an adult, and was cursed to shift between forms (ghost by night, vampyre by day IIRC) as a domain lord.

You are of course refering to Tristen ApBlanc.Right?
Xychotic
09-11-03, 05:31 PM Vampiric reproduction

Your argument has a really simple solution. Define birth. Heres my definition. Emitting from a creature, another living creature of the same species as generated by the birthing organism.
So, lets get into some simpler definitions. Lizards and birds "hatch." Humans, donkeys, and snakes are "born." In both cases, the newly born entity comes out of the body in some form or another. Does that work with vampires? Not really, you could go the way of Blade, but that's your perrogative.
In the end, if it comes out of a parent organism (which must be alive) it is born. If it new to the world when it comes out, it is born (yes, even aboleth fit this mold, or watch Dune for another take on this). Vampires, like wights, are made.
If you like the idea of having vampires with flowing blood, great. It would sort of explain why their hearts are so vulnerable. But this blood could merely be a metaphor of the lives that they steal. Play Soul Reaver 2 and you'll get a brief mention of the ordeal of making v. birthing vampires.
Remember, as DM, what you say goes. Just make sure to have a little justification so that you can give a brief explanation.
Xae'an
09-11-03, 07:55 PM We're still talking about D&D, not Blade or some other movie, and in D&D vampirism is definitly not a desease but a state ot undeath, which means the creature must have lived before becoming an undead and therefore cannot be born undead. There are thank God no "daywalkers" in D&D, at least not in the rulebooks I know and neither are there any non-evil vampires.
Vaalingrade Ashland
09-13-03, 06:59 PM Doesn't mean there shouldn't be. :)
DarkSoldier
09-13-03, 09:45 PM Originally posted by Archeaterius
You are of course refering to Tristen ApBlanc.Right? Yes, he is.

Fun Fact: the traditional dhampir was the only person who could see vampires (who were invisible creatures in folklore), but he had to look through his shirtsleeve to do so. There were active "dhampirs" in Eastern Europe as recently as the 50's (I'm pretty sure).

Vampires, being biologically dead but not having the sense to lie down and start rotting, cannot reproduce normally. Their idea of reproduction is to suck a living being dry of blood and then either leave it (possibly creating a vampire spawn, but also likely to create a dead corpse) or give it some of its own blood (creating a full vampire).

Vampyres (a Ravenloft-specific race) are living creatures, but prey on humans, consuming their blood. Their victims are affected with a charm effect. The vampyre's picture in Denizens of Darkness looks like it's jumping up and down and shouting, "Hoot mon! Hoot mon!"

Other sources take liberties with the vampiric condition: in Shadowrun, vampirism is a disease. I believe the same is true in Marvel comics, through the Blade films make a distinction between "infected" vampires and "born" vampires. In the World of Darkness, it's implied that vampirism is a divine curse. There are many other forms of vampirism, as almost every culture around the world has their own views on the condition.
Incenjucar
09-14-03, 01:39 AM There's also my personal view of them, which is a soul dies, is sent to the abyss, becomes a possessing demon thingie, then returns to their body to animate it.

Fits in with some of the myth, keeps them undead, but also makes them semi-demonic.. I mean, come on.. Children of the Night?
Rotipher
09-14-03, 10:57 AM Originally posted by DarkSoldier
Yes, he is.

*She* is, actually. ;-)

And yes, it's Tristan ApBlanc I was referring to. Just couldn't quite recall his name at the time.
Count Arioch the 28th
09-14-03, 03:10 PM It's simple.

you say "Im my world, Vampiures are made, not born. There has never been a half-vampire, and there never will be."

You win.

There's relly nothing you can do past that though, as other DMs can say that vampires are born, and half vampires exist.
DarkSoldier
09-15-03, 12:49 AM Originally posted by Rotipher
*She* is, actually. ;-)It's impossible to tell if a poster is female unless she outright says, "I'm a girl."
And yes, it's Tristan ApBlanc I was referring to. Just couldn't quite recall his name at the time. It's spelled Tristen; a lot of names in Ravenloft have odd spellings that more than a few people mess up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rat guy 09-10-03, 06:53 PM	He dosent get why vampires arent born he thinks if they got a blood flow they can reproduce but if they dont have a consition they cant he thinks they should. can some one explaine to him........
split infinitude 09-10-03, 07:20 PM	There actually is something called a half-vampire - in Faerun, I believe - that implied your player is right. I don't have a cite offhand for you, though.
Zarg1 09-10-03, 07:28 PM	You are the Dungon Master. Your player is not. If you say it is so then it is so. It does not matter what the player says. A vampire cannot be born under the core D&D rules unless perhaps you are using the vampire class. See Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) Or if you want them to be able. In which case it is truly up to you the game master to decide if these part vampires can produce offspring or if they exist at all. If you are not using this templete then the answer is probably no. A vampire's undead body should logically be incapible of reproduction because it is dead and does not age, grow, or follow the normal cycles of life.
Gez 09-10-03, 10:14 PM	The default D&D vampire is made, not born. It's detailed in the template and just reading it should be enough. Of course it's possible to make alternate vampirisms. It could work as a family curse or as a disease rather than as an unlife. But default D&D vampires are undead and thus can't be born.
Nei 09-11-03, 06:38 AM	Just invite the player over for movie night -theme: vampire movies! Then he'll get the picture, and both of you can have some fun too. Nei
Addi83 09-11-03, 07:37 AM	Vampires cannot actually reproduce, but say they turn a pregnant woman into a vampire, maybe her child also gets turned, or becomes a half-vampire, ala Blade. According to "Interview with a vampire", if a child gets turned completely, it won´t age, and therefore a fetus would never be born, since it won´t develope the necessary size, organs (or whatever, maybe vampires don´t need that).... a fetal vampire going around killing people...funky
Willie the Duck 09-11-03, 12:54 PM	the vampire baby would never get to fetus form, as the embryo would never form. Also: Blade is a different take on vampires, as it assume that vampirism is a disease. Certain gypsy mythologies suggested that vampires could still father children, called dhampir. These dhampir gained certain abilities that allowed them to better hunt vampires, but also a little of tehir bloodlust. This, again, is not related to D&D core vampires.
Yuffie 09-11-03, 01:27 PM	"Blood flow" does not = the capacity to have children. I don't even think vampires have flowing blood, but it's never addressed for sure (afaik), so hey... DM's caveat. But, they are undead after all, and the undead don't tend to have beating hearts. In truth, vampires in D&D aren't even what most people think of when they think "vampire". They're more like soul-draining essence stealers. But they are undead. And in my book, undead = no reproductive functions. Which is why I'm still at work writing up a more "traditional" vampire template. However, this can be argued all year long. Try hopping on IRC and asking around in FFRP channels about vampires and babies. Half the folk think it's absolutely stupid, and the other half either don't care, or think that they should be able to. The latter-most group tend to play vampires (who also tend to be daywalkers, immune to all attacks including holy effects, powergaming godmoders, etc), so their opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.
Mordriana the Blood 09-11-03, 01:37 PM	Yea, what Willie said. Half-vampires, AKA dhampir, are fairly prominent in Eastern European myth. They had some of the powers of their vampire parent but few of the weaknesses. Sure, the basic DnD cosmology doesn't allow for such things, but I think there is a real-world precident for such ideas. Sure, you don't have to allow it, but your player isn't crazy for thinking it either. Stuff like Blade, Vampire Hunter D, and especially Eastern European mythology have certainly set a precident. I allowed dhampir PCs in one campaign once, and my players enjoyed it very much. Several played them over the course of the several year-long campaign. In short, you're both right, but because you're the DM, you have the final say as to if they are allowed in your campaign or not.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-11-03, 01:47 PM	DnD vampires are a hideous hodge podge of Western Vampire, Hopping vampire and Pacific Islander Breathstealers. I'd say the undead thing would inhibit any nastification the vampire would like to do. I like the vampirism as a disease idea and I think it would be passed from mother to child.
Rotipher 09-11-03, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by Addi83 Vampires cannot actually reproduce, but say they turn a pregnant woman into a vampire, maybe her child also gets turned, or becomes a half-vampire, ala Blade. Actually, there's a long-established Ravenloft character (the lord of Forlorn) whose background was rather similar to the comic book Blade's. His mother was drained of blood by a vampire (her late adventurer husband), who had enough human feeling left not to kill her. She was already pregnant from his previous (non-undead) visit home. However, the baby became neither an undead vampire, nor "daywalker". Their son seemed fully human at birth, but grew up to became a "vampyre": an unique Ravenloft humanoid that feeds on blood, but is biologically alive. He was an evil creep even as a child, attracted the Dark Powers' interest after murdering some relatives as an adult, and was cursed to shift between forms (ghost by night, vampyre by day IIRC) as a domain lord. This is the only non-"third party" example of a "half-vampire" in a Ravenloft product, AFAIK. And FWIW, "Van Richten's Guide to Vampires" -- the definitive D&D sourcebook on the subject, if there ever was one -- tells us that even if vampires are capable of physical intercourse, they cannot sire or conceive offspring.
Rotipher 09-11-03, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by Mordriana the Blood Half-vampires, AKA dhampir, are fairly prominent in Eastern European myth. They had some of the powers of their vampire parent but few of the weaknesses. Sure, the basic DnD cosmology doesn't allow for such things, but I think there is a real-world precident for such ideas. Either that, or there's precedent for old Eastern European con artists convincing gulible peasents to pay them money to protect them from the "awful vampires", whom the con artists claimed they could detect by virtue of their "heritage".... :-/ Hmmmm... maybe there's a more interesting plotline in that idea, than in making dhampirs an actual creature! PCs come to investigate rumored vampire sighting; a self-proclaimed "dhampir" boasts that he's already destroyed the monster; PCs set their holy symbols, mirrors, and garlic aside, so are left vulnerable when the still-active vampire comes after its pursuers; PCs who survive must go on the warpath and track down the NPC whose lies nearly got them slaughtered.
Archeaterius 09-11-03, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by Rotipher Actually, there's a long-established Ravenloft character (the lord of Forlorn) whose background was rather similar to the comic book Blade's. His mother was drained of blood by a vampire (her late adventurer husband), who had enough human feeling left not to kill her. She was already pregnant from his previous (non-undead) visit home. However, the baby became neither an undead vampire, nor "daywalker". Their son seemed fully human at birth, but grew up to became a "vampyre": an unique Ravenloft humanoid that feeds on blood, but is biologically alive. He was an evil creep even as a child, attracted the Dark Powers' interest after murdering some relatives as an adult, and was cursed to shift between forms (ghost by night, vampyre by day IIRC) as a domain lord. You are of course refering to Tristen ApBlanc.Right?
Xychotic 09-11-03, 05:31 PM	Vampiric reproduction Your argument has a really simple solution. Define birth. Heres my definition. Emitting from a creature, another living creature of the same species as generated by the birthing organism. So, lets get into some simpler definitions. Lizards and birds "hatch." Humans, donkeys, and snakes are "born." In both cases, the newly born entity comes out of the body in some form or another. Does that work with vampires? Not really, you could go the way of Blade, but that's your perrogative. In the end, if it comes out of a parent organism (which must be alive) it is born. If it new to the world when it comes out, it is born (yes, even aboleth fit this mold, or watch Dune for another take on this). Vampires, like wights, are made. If you like the idea of having vampires with flowing blood, great. It would sort of explain why their hearts are so vulnerable. But this blood could merely be a metaphor of the lives that they steal. Play Soul Reaver 2 and you'll get a brief mention of the ordeal of making v. birthing vampires. Remember, as DM, what you say goes. Just make sure to have a little justification so that you can give a brief explanation.
Xae'an 09-11-03, 07:55 PM	We're still talking about D&D, not Blade or some other movie, and in D&D vampirism is definitly not a desease but a state ot undeath, which means the creature must have lived before becoming an undead and therefore cannot be born undead. There are thank God no "daywalkers" in D&D, at least not in the rulebooks I know and neither are there any non-evil vampires.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-13-03, 06:59 PM	Doesn't mean there shouldn't be. :)
DarkSoldier 09-13-03, 09:45 PM	Originally posted by Archeaterius You are of course refering to Tristen ApBlanc.Right? Yes, he is. Fun Fact: the traditional dhampir was the only person who could see vampires (who were invisible creatures in folklore), but he had to look through his shirtsleeve to do so. There were active "dhampirs" in Eastern Europe as recently as the 50's (I'm pretty sure). Vampires, being biologically dead but not having the sense to lie down and start rotting, cannot reproduce normally. Their idea of reproduction is to suck a living being dry of blood and then either leave it (possibly creating a vampire spawn, but also likely to create a dead corpse) or give it some of its own blood (creating a full vampire). Vampyres (a Ravenloft-specific race) are living creatures, but prey on humans, consuming their blood. Their victims are affected with a charm effect. The vampyre's picture in Denizens of Darkness looks like it's jumping up and down and shouting, "Hoot mon! Hoot mon!" Other sources take liberties with the vampiric condition: in Shadowrun, vampirism is a disease. I believe the same is true in Marvel comics, through the Blade films make a distinction between "infected" vampires and "born" vampires. In the World of Darkness, it's implied that vampirism is a divine curse. There are many other forms of vampirism, as almost every culture around the world has their own views on the condition.
Incenjucar 09-14-03, 01:39 AM	There's also my personal view of them, which is a soul dies, is sent to the abyss, becomes a possessing demon thingie, then returns to their body to animate it. Fits in with some of the myth, keeps them undead, but also makes them semi-demonic.. I mean, come on.. Children of the Night?
Rotipher 09-14-03, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by DarkSoldier Yes, he is. She is, actually. ;-) And yes, it's Tristan ApBlanc I was referring to. Just couldn't quite recall his name at the time.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-14-03, 03:10 PM	It's simple. you say "Im my world, Vampiures are made, not born. There has never been a half-vampire, and there never will be." You win. There's relly nothing you can do past that though, as other DMs can say that vampires are born, and half vampires exist.
DarkSoldier 09-15-03, 12:49 AM	Originally posted by Rotipher She is, actually. ;-)It's impossible to tell if a poster is female unless she outright says, "I'm a girl." And yes, it's Tristan ApBlanc I was referring to. Just couldn't quite recall his name at the time. It's spelled Tristen; a lot of names in Ravenloft have odd spellings that more than a few people mess up.