Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Branto 04-20-07, 06:39 PM	This is something that has always annoyed me. Why are canine-themed monsters so oftenly getting claws as natural weapons? Real-life canines have blunt claws designed only for digging, gripping the dirt when they run, and maybe gripping another creature while they're biting it. The worst a canine could cause with such claws if it tried would be superficial scratches in the skin of a creature with 0 natural armor... but the dog wouldn't even try in the first place. Canines are built to only use their powerful jaws and necks and their sharp teeth in combat, and their legs are built only for swift running, and don't have the physical power OR dexterity to use them in combat. So, why is it that people always want to imagine canine monsters such as werewolves as running around and scratching people to death? Worst of all is that they usually give them claw attacks as strong as the feline monsters. Whaaaa? (Now, I'll be fair. If the canine creatures stop clawing, they can get more powerful bites. Fair, right?) If anyone here is familiar with the anthropomorphic roleplaying game, Ironclaw, they'll know that the dogs there also have claws as racial weapons. :embarrass
Dead_Weasel 04-20-07, 06:44 PM	I hear you, and I agree, but the most you can do about it is houserule the claws out and give canines critters Improved Natural Attack(bite) as a bonus feat. People's preconceptions always dominate logic. For example, the actual historical elf myths are about little fey creatures that spread disease with their bows; it's not even clear where Tolkien got the idea for elves as elegant, civilized creatures (A Midummer Night's Dream, perhaps? Then where did Shakespeare get the idea?).
RLRapp 04-20-07, 10:41 PM	Because its cool. Why do beholders have 11 eyes instead of 10?
Dead_Weasel 04-20-07, 11:49 PM	Because they'd look silly with ten.
Branto 04-21-07, 01:52 AM	Because they wanted an even number of eyestalks plus one big one? And beholders aren't based off of any existing animal (at least I hope nothing even vaguely similar to that exists in nature) so they can be anything without there being a problem with it... and they DO come in just about everything when you get into the beholder-kin and all that. ;)
runestar 04-21-07, 02:19 AM	What sort of canines are you referring to? The wolf only has a bite attack as far as I am aware of.:confused:
Naderion 04-21-07, 09:38 AM	For example, the actual historical elf myths are about little fey creatures that spread disease with their bows; it's not even clear where Tolkien got the idea for elves as elegant, civilized creatures (A Midummer Night's Dream, perhaps? Then where did Shakespeare get the idea?). Wrong, you just have to loke for them at the right name: Search for Sidhe and you get 99% fantasy elves. It's most basic irish mythology. The norse Alfar are said to be described as beautiful, human-like, half-devine beings, simmilar to the greek nymphs and there are even the evil black skinned dark alfar, who live underground. ;) Apparently only the english faires are described as small and winged. As things are, it's VERY clear where the fantasy-elves come from.
Shlohloh 04-21-07, 10:22 AM	Actualy canines do use there front paws as blunt weapons to strike opponents. though it inflicts only minor damage they use there front paws to push down and manipulate center of gravity of there opponents. So at least wiht wolves the free trip attack wiht a succseful bite is perfect for this.
Evil DM Mk3 04-21-07, 10:38 AM	Becasue a creature with vicius savadge claws is better themed and cooler than one without one.
Branto 04-21-07, 03:24 PM	Actualy canines do use there front paws as blunt weapons to strike opponents. though it inflicts only minor damage they use there front paws to push down and manipulate center of gravity of there opponents. So at least wiht wolves the free trip attack wiht a succseful bite is perfect for this. True. They use their paws to push and hold.. but they never actually scratch. So instead of critters like the werewolf getting natural claw attacks, they should instead just get like +2 or 3 bonus to grappling. Becasue a creature with vicius savadge claws is better themed and cooler than one without one. Better themed? Umm, alright. Henceforth, everything gets claws! Humans, orcs, green slimes. It'll be totally awesome. ;) [/sarcasm]
Freefall 04-21-07, 04:07 PM	Even if canines did have claws like cats, they wouldn't be able to use them nearly as well because their anatomy wouldn't allow them to make very effective swiping attacks. Without changing the rest of their body their bite really is the best method of attack, which is probably why their teeth and jaws have evolved to be so strong. Something like a werewolf is built very differently from a normal canine. They have arms that give them a much better reach than their jaws, so yeah, thematically if you want this thing to have vicious natural attacks it makes sense to make their hands lethal instead of just their mouths.
Branto 04-21-07, 06:39 PM	Something like a werewolf is built very differently from a normal canine. They have arms that give them a much better reach than their jaws, so yeah, thematically if you want this thing to have vicious natural attacks it makes sense to make their hands lethal instead of just their mouths. And my question is why? Doesn't it seem hideously ineffective to go to all the trouble of making werewolves have sharp claws and giving them the prowess and arm strength to use them, rather than just sticking with (and improving upon) the bite that wolves are already so good at? To use an analogy, I'd have to compare this situation to going out and buying a horse and training it to swim instead of just getting a marine animal for a mount. Or having your party's fighter ignore his class skills and put most of his skill points into Heal skill while you already have a cleric who knows the spell of the same name. Why try and make something better at things it isn't naturally good at, when you should be focussing on the strengths it has? Teach your horse to run, not swim. Teach your fighter to craft weapons or intimidate or something. And werewolves and similar canine-based monsters? Forget the claws and start chomping people! ;)
Vultawk 04-21-07, 06:50 PM	You ever try to wrestle a dog? I work at a veterinary clinic and I do almost daily. Dog claws hurt more than cat claws on average, and I get scratched alot more by the dogs than I do by the cats. Either way, these are fantasy monsters we're discussing, so parallels to actual animals are skin-deep at best.
ank 04-22-07, 03:57 PM	Ok, I'm thinking of all the canine creatures I can: wolf, worg, winter wolf, werewolf, and...well thats all I can think of. Of all of these, only a werewolf can use claw attacks. As to WHY they do? All wolves have claws, very, very hard claws. The difference is that a regular wolf would much rather bite something, and if it goes for a claw attack at the same time, it falls on its face, likely biting its tongue; it needs its legs to stand on. Now, a werewolf does not need to use its front "paws" to stand on, and it has more muscles and finess with its hands than a wolf does with its paw. Therefore, it can make a claw attack.
Dead_Weasel 04-22-07, 06:17 PM	And my question is why? Doesn't it seem hideously ineffective to go to all the trouble of making werewolves have sharp claws and giving them the prowess and arm strength to use them, rather than just sticking with (and improving upon) the bite that wolves are already so good at? But you're not starting with a wolf. You're starting with a person. You probably use your hands to do a lot of things; I know I'm not trying to type with my teeth. A person with wolf qualities added on still possesses the instincts of a humanoid; the fact that wolf instincts get added in doesn't mean they supercede the human ones. A werewolf, although canine in appearance (at times) is not actually a canine, not even when they're in wolf form.
Branto 04-22-07, 06:57 PM	A werewolf, although canine in appearance (at times) is not actually a canine, not even when they're in wolf form. Actually that depends on what kind of werewolf they are. Afflicted werewolves will be mostly normal in their regular form, but completely feral when transformed. Natural werewolves tend to have a blending of personality, somewhere about halfway between the two base creatures, though it may lean a little either way depending on which form they were born in (which depends on the parents. Werewolf/Humanoid pairings result in a werewolf born in the humanoid form, while Werewolf/Wolf pairings will usually be born in wolf form and always have much more feral mannerisms). And how exactly does combining a creature that has blunt claws and that only uses them for grappling with one that has NO claws and that's natural form of attack is to find something heavy or sharp to swing around get you a creature that jumps around and scratches? That simply makes no sense whatsoever. The only reason anyone could fail to notice that is because that's how they've been getting portrayed for so long.
Dead_Weasel 04-22-07, 10:30 PM	I feel that it's better to look at other primates; a human's "natural" response in combat is difficult at best to define or generalize, particularly with what society has done to our mentality. Still, the entire situation is pretty ridiculous - your conception of a werewolf will differ from mine and it's hard to come up with hard and fast rules for how a creature that cannot be would act if it were real. Wolves don't naturally run on two legs and humans don't naturally have claws or teeth. Perhaps we should seek an answer by reflecting upon the platypus.;)
LeuktheSavior 04-22-07, 10:49 PM	Branto have you ever had a human being with long nails claw you? human nails hurt, and if they are maintained and healthy (or fake, crazy women with their crazy nails) can leave you needing stitches. humans can use their hands like claws. Now imagine, if you would, A human that could shift into a mixture of a wolf and man. they grow, sprout fur, their teeth become deadly, their eyesight sharp, their olfactory system flawless. All their basic natural abilities are enhanced. Imagine If human nails could become as durable and dense and strong as a canine's nails, with the propensity to do damage like the human's can, it makes perfect sense that they would have a claw attack. A wolf, Dog, Worg shouldnt have one though.
ShinQuickMan 04-22-07, 11:27 PM	Um, all were-animal hybrids have claw attacks. Even wereboars of all things! So this topic should probably be called "Why do all were-animal hybrids have claw attacks".
Branto 04-23-07, 12:21 AM	Branto have you ever had a human being with long nails claw you? human nails hurt, and if they are maintained and healthy (or fake, crazy women with their crazy nails) can leave you needing stitches. I have yet to see human (or canine) nails actually draw blood. And just because something hurts doesn't mean it will do damage, you know. ;) Feline claws on the other hand? Yeah, those are designed to slice through flesh. Um, all were-animal hybrids have claw attacks. Even wereboars of all things! So this topic should probably be called "Why do all were-animal hybrids have claw attacks". What? Seriously? ... wereboars? So fingers+hooves=claws? Man, someone must have been hanging out with Myconids when they came up with the rules for werecritters. Of course, I'm not too fond of the wereboar anyways. Most werecreatures are predatory animals, (or at least they will eat meat among other things, in the case of the wererat) but then we've got this wild pig. And now that I think of it, would the teeth inside a boar's mouth draw blood? Could a werecreature pass on the curse with external teeth, such as tusks? Blah. Well, back to the main topic, sort of... whether or not you think they should have claws, would you as players find it reasonable if your DM houseruled it so that the werewolves lost their claws and instead got like +2 to grappling and their bite attack was a size category or two larger? That's how I would do it if I ever ran a game. :)
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 08:13 AM	And now that I think of it, would the teeth inside a boar's mouth draw blood? Um YES! Not only are pigs omnivourous but they can also be VERY predatory. After returning form active duty in the second world war my grandfather found work on a pig farm. Well it was more like a factory. One of his jobs was to go out on the gantry and throw food down. One of the other workers fell in, didn't ude his saftey rope. The pigs did not even leave bones. Pigs are so dangerous that they require police escort in the UK if moved any distance over public land. They kill more people every year world wide than any other farm animal. Almost twice as many as bulls. And these are the domesticated animals with shorter teeth and blunter hooves. I don't know, bive wear boars slams if you feel that they don't ahve sharp enough hooves. But on another level it is because the fight "tooth and claw". That is why were-whatever have claws.
Captain_Kobold 04-23-07, 01:06 PM	I have yet to see human (or canine) nails actually draw blood. And just because something hurts doesn't mean it will do damage, you know. ;) Feline claws on the other hand? Yeah, those are designed to slice through flesh. Actually, feline claws are not designed to slice through flesh, or to kill. They are not so much blades, as hooks, used to aid climbing and to hold prey for the real killing weapon: The mouth. A big cat's claws are not generally dangerous as weapons that will carve you up, but because the cat will snag you and drag you in to where it can use its mouth. Remember the original werewolf myth was not about men who shifted between wolf form and human form, but who went vicious and bestial. Clawing with the hands and biting might not be the most effective way for a human to fight unarmed, but is probably what you get when you strip away intellect to give raw instinct.
Phalo 04-23-07, 01:15 PM	Um, all were-animal hybrids have claw attacks. Even wereboars of all things! So this topic should probably be called "Why do all were-animal hybrids have claw attacks". I would think just about any lycanthrope would have a claw attack in hybrid form with the obvious exception of like were raven. They all have hardened nails even boars cloven feet are relatively sharp . But that does not mean they use the claws just that they can. To put it in perspective kobolds have a claw attack chances of they using it low.
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 02:21 PM	OK here is a real doozy Were-python
Charlie_PFC 04-23-07, 02:37 PM	I once read about about a woman in prison who sharpened her finger nail and slashed someones throat with it-real classy chick!;)
LeuktheSavior 04-23-07, 03:08 PM	Branto have you ever had a human being with long nails claw you? human nails hurt, and if they are maintained and healthy (or fake, crazy women with their crazy nails) can leave you needing stitches. stitches....just think about that. that has to be a fairly deep cut. Ill tell you want Branto. Go out and find a long nailed women, and insult her until she decides to attack you. then get back to me and tell me how its like to have one of your eyes covered by a patch because she split it open with her pinky nail.:ghosted: humans have the ability to grow claws that are fairly lethal. Add in the bestial and vicious nature of the therianthrope curse, which twists human logic and predator cunning into the pinnacle of human savagery and monstrous instincts, and it only makes sense that hte human qualities that could be dangerous would become dangerous.
Branto 04-23-07, 05:37 PM	People keep making references to these people who grow and sharpen their nails. The thing about that, though, is that is an intentional body modification, and they are intentionally trying to mimic felines when they do this. A "wild" human does not scratch, instinctively. If they do not have access to any sort of weapon, manufactured or improvised, the human's natural instinct in a fight would be to slam with fists and feet or grapple. A canine's instincts would be to trip the legs or lunge for the neck, hold with the paws, and bite. Biting is what they're good at. Felines will pounce, hook into their opponent with their claws while biting. They have a little less jaw strength than canines, but I think they might have a benefit in sharpness, so instead of piercing AND crushing they simply use those teeth to slice through vital areas, usually of the neck. However, until an opportunity for the killing pounce arrives, or if it's not that serious a fight, felines WILL swipe out with those "hooks" and slash through flesh. I'm not sure why someone said they aren't built like that, because common little housecats have on numerous occasions sliced into me pretty well. The wounds those claws leave are thin, but very deep. I have been scratched by people before. I don't think they actually had sharpened anything, but they have scratched me. Left some superficial (if painful) damage in the skin, but did not pierce through. Certainly not lethal or anything close to it. ;) Oh, and Evil DM .... I don't think I believe a single word of that about pigs eating people and needing police escort. That's just plain silly. Aha! I decided to look up some videos for reference, since a lot of you still seem to think wolves are some sort of kunf-fu clawing machines. This first one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-UvsJj5qgc) is wolves hunting buffalo or bison or somesuch, though you don't actually get to the good stuff until the last twenty or thirty seconds of the video. The narrator seems to agree with me, "The wolves only weapons are their sharp teeth" And you can see it. They bite on and then barely even use their paws to hold the thing. Here's another one. You can clearly see the wolves positioning themselves adjacent to the bear's square for a flanking bonus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzfYsIC8ufs), but still you can see they only snap with their teeth and never even lift a paw towards the bear. And finally, cats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfNqvGT5VVs). No explaination. Or reason. I just couldn't resist. ;)
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 05:50 PM	I don't think I believe a single word of that about pigs eating people and needing police escort. That's just plain silly. Then more fool you. Pigs, real pigs not the small cuddly oinky animals that turn up inexplicable in children's books, are DANGEROUS. Still the sillies were-thing of all is the were-snake.
Domriso 04-23-07, 11:33 PM	As for the were-raven, why wouldn't they have claws? Maybe not on their hands, but definitely on their feet. I mean, come on, talons! I seem to remember a short story which detailed the exploit of an adventurer and his buddies who went out to hunt boar and were all mauled to death, even though they had firearms and were up in the trees. I've seen pigs maul people, and those were the cuddily ones. And, yeah, were-snakes are pretty silly. But I still think the were-dire maggot is the best.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-24-07, 12:22 AM	A "wild" human does not scratch, instinctively. If they do not have access to any sort of weapon, manufactured or improvised, the human's natural instinct in a fight would be to slam with fists and feet or grapple. Nope. Our instinct is to scratch at the opponent's eyes. If you take someone who hasn't fought before, and put them in a fight, that's what they're going to do. That's what our closest relatives do. That's what virtually all primates do. Felines will pounce, hook into their opponent with their claws while biting. They have a little less jaw strength than canines, but I think they might have a benefit in sharpness, so instead of piercing AND crushing they simply use those teeth to slice through vital areas, usually of the neck. Nope. Killing methods for cats consist of one of two strategies. They either bite the throat and suffocate their prey, or they deliver a bite to the skull, in order to puncture the brain.
Phalo 04-24-07, 12:42 AM	As for the were-raven, why wouldn't they have claws? Maybe not on their hands, but definitely on their feet. I mean, come on, talons! Thats my fault i wasn't very clear on my thought process i was thinking hand claws.
Phalo 04-24-07, 12:45 AM	They are right about pigs being dangerous the worst are feral ones(domestic pigs gone wild). Think of it this way i have seen hogs kill and eat copperhead snakes.
Evil DM Mk3 04-24-07, 07:33 AM	Do you know what really makes them dangerous? *leans forward conspiritualy* They are clever. Easily as clever as a dog, prehaps more so. As smart as most primates and they have a worringly human like way of finding solutions (that is to say the methods they try tend to the the same ones humans do). Hang on, didn't I use were-snakes once. Oh yes, as Yuani-ti experiments. The "arms" where aditional snakes so the hybrif form had threee heads. No mechanical change.