Catelyn Stark at the end of _A Storm of Swords_ (spoilers) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Catelyn Stark at the end of _A Storm of Swords_ (spoilers) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
07-21-07, 07:01 AM I was just thinking about Catelyn Stark at the end of A Storm of Swords. It's been a while since I've read it, but if I recall correct, Beric Dandarrion's men found Catelyn Stark's corpse several days after the Red Wedding, after she had been in the river for a while. Thoros of Myr used his resurrection magic on her, but whereas previously he had only brought back people who had just died in battle, this time he brought back someone who had been dead for days -- and it kinda worked, and kinda didn't work.

As a result, Catelyn now seems to be a walking, deteriorating corpse with unhealing wounds from the events of the Red Wedding, who is, to some extent, aware and conscious, but whose personality has undergone a radical transformation toward being vengeful and obsessed with the destruction of those responsible for her family's death (most notably members of House Frey, even those who had a very tangential role in the Red Wedding), in great contrast to her previous, more cautious and peaceful personality (although it is possible that this transformation is not a result of her magically altered state, but merely the result of the magnitude of traumas and betrayals she has undergone, since she believes that she has lost her husband and all of her children (not being aware of the Boltons' fraud in claiming to have killed Bran and Rickon, Arya's having escaped across the Narrow Sea, etc).

I'm wondering -- a raise dead only works on someone who has been dead for 1 day/caster level or less. What if you cast it on someone who's been dead longer than that, though? The simplest take is that the spell simply fails, but there seem to be so many possibilities for more interesting and macabre ways for the spell to fail. I'm intrigued by the picture titled Coming Back Wrong (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91976.jpg) from Heroes of Horror, although I don't have the book, and am not sure what the accompianying text says. (If anyone could summarize the paragraph, without violating the Code of Conduct, I would be quite interested in hearing it.

In D&D terms, it seems like Thoros of Myr effectively used an ASOIAF version of raise dead, but cast it on Catelyn after the time limit was up. She came back as something else. Perhaps as a monster, or perhaps as something with some sort of template.

I'm wondering, what sort of monster, or what template, might that be?
GoriceXII
07-21-07, 11:22 AM She's a revenant, I would think.

Er...before I continue I'd like to know if you have read A Feast for Crows yet.
Forfeit
07-21-07, 03:31 PM Its hard to aply D&D spells to a setting as SoIaF. For example, in my opinion, every time Beric Dondarion was ressurected, he lost one point of constitution. That would mean that if he had 14 Con before dying, and since he was ressurected 6 (or 7?) times, he would have about 8 or 7 con when he finaly died for real.

You could also say that the way of death directly results in a bigger constitution penalty. Catelyn body was pretty damaged during the Red Wedding, so my guess is that she would have "lost" more than 1 constitution point. You could say that every time someone dies, you roll 1d4 and reduces that in constitution points constitution. Or that each day after death, you would reduce 1 con from the total.

Meaning Catelyn would have something like 3-5 constituion points when she became StoneHeart, not only from all the damage in the Red Wedding, but also due to the fact that her body was released in the river and only ressurected days later.

Oh, and I dont think she was a monster. The same spell was used in Beric, and he was still a human. But a very broken human. When he spoke with Arya before dueling with Sandor, he said that he barely remembered anything of his past life, and I think Thoros said that the only thing that kept Beric going was his honor and his pledge that he was going to bring the King´s Justice to Gregor. So, in my opinion, there should also be some kind of deduction to 1 point to Int, Wis and Cha for each time someone gets ressurected. Catelyn only remains alive due to her desire of vengeance on the Freys.

So the rules would be something like this:

Spell: Breath of Life

When the character dies, roll fortitude: if failing the roll, roll 1d4 and reduce that amount from the total constitution. (due to the damage of the body)
For each day after death that the body remains unprotected (meaning it wasnt preserved), reduce one constitution point from the total.
When ressurected, the character loses one point in con, int, wis and cha. (due to the average decomposition of the body).

As you can see, magic in aSoIaF isnt as miraculous as in D&D. Beric himself desired true death so much that he gave his Breath of Life to Catelyn so she could ressurect, because Thoros was so horrified by the way her body was (lets say Con 3) that he refused to ressurect her.
JulesCARV
07-21-07, 05:32 PM I did read A Feast for Crows. I just realized I had forgotten the whole business regarding Stoneheart, Brienne, and Pod.
GoriceXII
07-22-07, 07:28 AM SPOILERS FOR FEAST FOR CROWS BELOW!!!!

Catelyn if you recall is capable of reason (though admittedly rather obsessed and not exactly a good communicator due to the damage to her face and throat) when she is giving Brienne the choice as to whether she will kill Jaime Lannister or die.

I'd still say apply the rules to her as a revenant. Catelyn if you remember WANTS to die, wished she had died instead of Robb. She only exists for vengeance against the houses of Lannister and Frey, and all their allies and servants.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-21-07, 07:01 AM	I was just thinking about Catelyn Stark at the end of A Storm of Swords. It's been a while since I've read it, but if I recall correct, Beric Dandarrion's men found Catelyn Stark's corpse several days after the Red Wedding, after she had been in the river for a while. Thoros of Myr used his resurrection magic on her, but whereas previously he had only brought back people who had just died in battle, this time he brought back someone who had been dead for days -- and it kinda worked, and kinda didn't work. As a result, Catelyn now seems to be a walking, deteriorating corpse with unhealing wounds from the events of the Red Wedding, who is, to some extent, aware and conscious, but whose personality has undergone a radical transformation toward being vengeful and obsessed with the destruction of those responsible for her family's death (most notably members of House Frey, even those who had a very tangential role in the Red Wedding), in great contrast to her previous, more cautious and peaceful personality (although it is possible that this transformation is not a result of her magically altered state, but merely the result of the magnitude of traumas and betrayals she has undergone, since she believes that she has lost her husband and all of her children (not being aware of the Boltons' fraud in claiming to have killed Bran and Rickon, Arya's having escaped across the Narrow Sea, etc). I'm wondering -- a raise dead only works on someone who has been dead for 1 day/caster level or less. What if you cast it on someone who's been dead longer than that, though? The simplest take is that the spell simply fails, but there seem to be so many possibilities for more interesting and macabre ways for the spell to fail. I'm intrigued by the picture titled Coming Back Wrong (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91976.jpg) from Heroes of Horror, although I don't have the book, and am not sure what the accompianying text says. (If anyone could summarize the paragraph, without violating the Code of Conduct, I would be quite interested in hearing it. In D&D terms, it seems like Thoros of Myr effectively used an ASOIAF version of raise dead, but cast it on Catelyn after the time limit was up. She came back as something else. Perhaps as a monster, or perhaps as something with some sort of template. I'm wondering, what sort of monster, or what template, might that be?
GoriceXII 07-21-07, 11:22 AM	She's a revenant, I would think. Er...before I continue I'd like to know if you have read A Feast for Crows yet.
Forfeit 07-21-07, 03:31 PM	Its hard to aply D&D spells to a setting as SoIaF. For example, in my opinion, every time Beric Dondarion was ressurected, he lost one point of constitution. That would mean that if he had 14 Con before dying, and since he was ressurected 6 (or 7?) times, he would have about 8 or 7 con when he finaly died for real. You could also say that the way of death directly results in a bigger constitution penalty. Catelyn body was pretty damaged during the Red Wedding, so my guess is that she would have "lost" more than 1 constitution point. You could say that every time someone dies, you roll 1d4 and reduces that in constitution points constitution. Or that each day after death, you would reduce 1 con from the total. Meaning Catelyn would have something like 3-5 constituion points when she became StoneHeart, not only from all the damage in the Red Wedding, but also due to the fact that her body was released in the river and only ressurected days later. Oh, and I dont think she was a monster. The same spell was used in Beric, and he was still a human. But a very broken human. When he spoke with Arya before dueling with Sandor, he said that he barely remembered anything of his past life, and I think Thoros said that the only thing that kept Beric going was his honor and his pledge that he was going to bring the King´s Justice to Gregor. So, in my opinion, there should also be some kind of deduction to 1 point to Int, Wis and Cha for each time someone gets ressurected. Catelyn only remains alive due to her desire of vengeance on the Freys. So the rules would be something like this: Spell: Breath of Life When the character dies, roll fortitude: if failing the roll, roll 1d4 and reduce that amount from the total constitution. (due to the damage of the body) For each day after death that the body remains unprotected (meaning it wasnt preserved), reduce one constitution point from the total. When ressurected, the character loses one point in con, int, wis and cha. (due to the average decomposition of the body). As you can see, magic in aSoIaF isnt as miraculous as in D&D. Beric himself desired true death so much that he gave his Breath of Life to Catelyn so she could ressurect, because Thoros was so horrified by the way her body was (lets say Con 3) that he refused to ressurect her.
JulesCARV 07-21-07, 05:32 PM	I did read A Feast for Crows. I just realized I had forgotten the whole business regarding Stoneheart, Brienne, and Pod.
GoriceXII 07-22-07, 07:28 AM	SPOILERS FOR FEAST FOR CROWS BELOW!!!! Catelyn if you recall is capable of reason (though admittedly rather obsessed and not exactly a good communicator due to the damage to her face and throat) when she is giving Brienne the choice as to whether she will kill Jaime Lannister or die. I'd still say apply the rules to her as a revenant. Catelyn if you remember WANTS to die, wished she had died instead of Robb. She only exists for vengeance against the houses of Lannister and Frey, and all their allies and servants.