Catfolk CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Catfolk CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thepuregamer
03-22-07, 02:04 AM So I was looking to make encounters with non classed catfolk but I am unable to find any mention of what their CR should be? How should I go about this?
Angelflesh
03-22-07, 02:35 AM Add a class level or racial HD.
mythSSK
03-22-07, 02:42 AM So I was looking to make encounters with non classed catfolk but I am unable to find any mention of what their CR should be? How should I go about this?Because they're not listed as having any racial Hit Dice, you'll have to assume they're a 1 HD creature normally, and thus should be statted up in the same fashion as you'd stat up a 1 HD orc, or goblin, or kobold. By adding a class level. Typically, the added class is the NPC warrior class, and as you'll note by looking at every other LA +1 critter in the books, LA +1 isn't enough to warrant a CR increase. Thus, a 1st level catfolk warrior is CR 1/2.
FrostHammer
03-22-07, 03:56 AM I'd say a first-level catfolk sorc or ranger is at least CR 1, due to the stat bonuses.
Angelflesh
03-22-07, 01:34 PM I'd say a first-level catfolk sorc or ranger is at least CR 1, due to the stat bonuses.

No, it would be CR1 because of the 1 class level added.

Because they're not listed as having any racial Hit Dice, you'll have to assume they're a 1 HD creature normally, and thus should be statted up in the same fashion as you'd stat up a 1 HD orc, or goblin, or kobold. By adding a class level. Typically, the added class is the NPC warrior class, and as you'll note by looking at every other LA +1 critter in the books, LA +1 isn't enough to warrant a CR increase. Thus, a 1st level catfolk warrior is CR 1/2.

The first part is half-way incorrect. The humanoid type has d8 HD, so instead of adding class levels you can opt to add racial HD if you really want. Very few creatures actually make use these HD and thus the granted traits of the humanoid creature type.
mythSSK
03-23-07, 02:42 AM The first part is half-way incorrect. The humanoid type has d8 HD, so instead of adding class levels you can opt to add racial HD if you really want. Very few creatures actually make use these HD and thus the granted traits of the humanoid creature type.Care to cite any examples? I have never seen a humanoid creature with one racial Hit Dice statted anywhere in any WotC book. Also, the SRD states:

"Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws."
- - - SRD, Types and Subtypes

Note it doesn't say they can exchange the Hit Die, it says they do exchange it. No rule or example I can find contradicts this statement.
Angelflesh
03-23-07, 12:06 PM Bugbear, unless you want an example of a humanoid with only one HD. That i don't think i can provide, but i statement still stands. It does not go against the rules to add racial HD to humanoids to advance them instead of class levels. Granted a creature with one HD, like a human or goblin automatically switch it out for a class level, it doesn't mean a creature with 2 HD, like a gnoll, has to.

Also, i fail to see where that quote from the SRD says they have to exchange racial HD for class levels. They don't have to, the Humanoid type has a racial HD for a reason. You could opt for the HD instead of class levels to provide an example of an undeveloped or very primitive member of that race or species.
mythSSK
03-23-07, 07:06 PM Bugbear, unless you want an example of a humanoid with only one HD. That i don't think i can provide, but i statement still stands. It does not go against the rules to add racial HD to humanoids to advance them instead of class levels. Granted a creature with one HD, like a human or goblin automatically switch it out for a class level, it doesn't mean a creature with 2 HD, like a gnoll, has to.Your point? I (and my quote from the SRD, which is also present in the MM) specified that 1-HD humanoids followed this rule, not ones with more than 1. Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully before stating I am wrong.

Also, i fail to see where that quote from the SRD says they have to exchange racial HD for class levels. They don't have to, the Humanoid type has a racial HD for a reason. You could opt for the HD instead of class levels to provide an example of an undeveloped or very primitive member of that race or species.The quote says they exchange it. Period. It does not say they "may" exchange it, or that they "can" exchange it. It says they exchange it. Yes, the Humanoid type has a racial Hit Dice for humanoids with more than one Hit Die. If you wanted to represent an undeveloped or very primitive member of that race or species, use warrior, it works well. Or commoner. Or barbarian. Depending on your flavor. The feral template is also good.

This is how the RAW states things. Of course, in your game, feel free to do whatever suits you best. If you want to have Humanoids with one racial Hit Dice, go for it, I'm not going to break into your house with rules-lawyer ninjas and force you to play the game as written. I'm just giving you the guidelines as they are.
Angelflesh
03-24-07, 12:25 AM Maybe you need to read my posts more, stated that i knew you wanted a 1-HD creature, and i admitted i couldn't provide one. Hell, you even quoted the section i said that in.

This argument is moot anyways, i didn't tell the guy to add only HD. I simply said he could add racial HD instead if he didn't want to use class levels to raise the CR of his Catfolk. I never said you were flat out wrong when you told him he had to add class levels. All i said was you partly wrong and that he could ad racial HD. So, i don't know what you're beef is, maybe just to try and put me in place by nit-picking at what i said: "No no no no no, you can't add just 1 HD, it's against the rules!!!!111".

Cut me a break buddy.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-24-07, 12:29 AM I don't think that catfolk (or other 1 HD humanoids) allow advancement by HD, however. Like the standard races, they advance by class only.
Narris
03-24-07, 12:37 AM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie
look at the first part on the entry of pixies as characters
"A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level."
Also look under advancement entry
Angelflesh
03-24-07, 03:18 AM I don't think that catfolk (or other 1 HD humanoids) allow advancement by HD, however. Like the standard races, they advance by class only.

Of course it doesn't state they advance by HD, but you do have the option of doing so with the humanoid type and it's racial HD. Just like i can add class levels to various other creature that are usually supposed to advance by HD.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie
look at the first part on the entry of pixies as characters
"A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level."
Also look under advancement entry

Well gee, thanx for the update. I already stated that i agree with this. But if you want to advance the pixie or catfolk as a monster instead, you can just tack on more racial HD.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-24-07, 01:44 PM But if you want to advance the pixie or catfolk as a monster instead, you can just tack on more racial HD.

Cite one rule supporting that. You can't, because you can only advance creatures by racial hit dice if explicitly mentioned in the advancement section.
Angelflesh
03-24-07, 01:58 PM Read the advancement entry in the beginning of the MM. I states that intelligent creature often advance by class level. The advancement entry in the stat block presents the most common form of advancement for that particular creature.

Beholders are intelligent, but HD advancement is displayed. But wait a minute, they can also take class levels, i know this because beholder PrCs have been presented in WOTC books.

You ask me to cite a rule supporting my claim. I ask you to present a rule stating it is breaking the rules to advance any creature by HD.
Arivia
03-24-07, 02:07 PM So I was looking to make encounters with non classed catfolk but I am unable to find any mention of what their CR should be? How should I go about this?

The Miniatures Handbook lists their CR as 1/2, which essentially means they must always have class levels. Your best option is to add the racial stats from whichever source you have to a first-level commoner.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-24-07, 03:32 PM Read the advancement entry in the beginning of the MM. I states that intelligent creature often advance by class level. The advancement entry in the stat block presents the most common form of advancement for that particular creature.

Beholders are intelligent, but HD advancement is displayed. But wait a minute, they can also take class levels, i know this because beholder PrCs have been presented in WOTC books.

You ask me to cite a rule supporting my claim. I ask you to present a rule stating it is breaking the rules to advance any creature by HD.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or more can take class levels. That's in the rules. The one making the positive claim must provide evidence. You are the one making the positive claim.
mythSSK
03-24-07, 06:56 PM Not going to get back into this, as I think Angelflesh is just arguing for the sake of arguing and won't change his mind regardless of how often he is shown to be incorrect, but I will just point out that the quote from the MM he cites (the only thing has has bothered citing to back up his position) says:

"Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die."

From what I can see, this is quite obviously referencing the "any creature with Intelligence 3 or higher can gain class levels" rule that Throatwobbler Mangrove pointed out.
Angelflesh
03-24-07, 06:59 PM I'm not arguing just for the sake of it. The fact of the matter is, not a single one of you and cite where it says it's against the rules to add racial HD to humanoids with 1-HD instead of adding class levels. Sure, the rules say when a 1-HD creature takes on class levels they exchange their 1 racial HD for the HD from their first class level.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. See, you provide the evidence for me.
mythSSK
03-24-07, 07:12 PM But there is evidence. You're just ignoring it. We've cited several passages/examples that imply that 1-HD Humanoids can not, by the rules, gain racial Hit Dice. So your absence of evidence argument really doesn't hold any water.

From what I can see, your position is that because it doesn't specifically come right out and say you can't, you must be able to - regardless of any relevant rules that imply the opposite? That's... really faulty logic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thepuregamer 03-22-07, 02:04 AM	So I was looking to make encounters with non classed catfolk but I am unable to find any mention of what their CR should be? How should I go about this?
Angelflesh 03-22-07, 02:35 AM	Add a class level or racial HD.
mythSSK 03-22-07, 02:42 AM	So I was looking to make encounters with non classed catfolk but I am unable to find any mention of what their CR should be? How should I go about this?Because they're not listed as having any racial Hit Dice, you'll have to assume they're a 1 HD creature normally, and thus should be statted up in the same fashion as you'd stat up a 1 HD orc, or goblin, or kobold. By adding a class level. Typically, the added class is the NPC warrior class, and as you'll note by looking at every other LA +1 critter in the books, LA +1 isn't enough to warrant a CR increase. Thus, a 1st level catfolk warrior is CR 1/2.
FrostHammer 03-22-07, 03:56 AM	I'd say a first-level catfolk sorc or ranger is at least CR 1, due to the stat bonuses.
Angelflesh 03-22-07, 01:34 PM	I'd say a first-level catfolk sorc or ranger is at least CR 1, due to the stat bonuses. No, it would be CR1 because of the 1 class level added. Because they're not listed as having any racial Hit Dice, you'll have to assume they're a 1 HD creature normally, and thus should be statted up in the same fashion as you'd stat up a 1 HD orc, or goblin, or kobold. By adding a class level. Typically, the added class is the NPC warrior class, and as you'll note by looking at every other LA +1 critter in the books, LA +1 isn't enough to warrant a CR increase. Thus, a 1st level catfolk warrior is CR 1/2. The first part is half-way incorrect. The humanoid type has d8 HD, so instead of adding class levels you can opt to add racial HD if you really want. Very few creatures actually make use these HD and thus the granted traits of the humanoid creature type.
mythSSK 03-23-07, 02:42 AM	The first part is half-way incorrect. The humanoid type has d8 HD, so instead of adding class levels you can opt to add racial HD if you really want. Very few creatures actually make use these HD and thus the granted traits of the humanoid creature type.Care to cite any examples? I have never seen a humanoid creature with one racial Hit Dice statted anywhere in any WotC book. Also, the SRD states: "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws." - - - SRD, Types and Subtypes Note it doesn't say they can exchange the Hit Die, it says they do exchange it. No rule or example I can find contradicts this statement.
Angelflesh 03-23-07, 12:06 PM	Bugbear, unless you want an example of a humanoid with only one HD. That i don't think i can provide, but i statement still stands. It does not go against the rules to add racial HD to humanoids to advance them instead of class levels. Granted a creature with one HD, like a human or goblin automatically switch it out for a class level, it doesn't mean a creature with 2 HD, like a gnoll, has to. Also, i fail to see where that quote from the SRD says they have to exchange racial HD for class levels. They don't have to, the Humanoid type has a racial HD for a reason. You could opt for the HD instead of class levels to provide an example of an undeveloped or very primitive member of that race or species.
mythSSK 03-23-07, 07:06 PM	Bugbear, unless you want an example of a humanoid with only one HD. That i don't think i can provide, but i statement still stands. It does not go against the rules to add racial HD to humanoids to advance them instead of class levels. Granted a creature with one HD, like a human or goblin automatically switch it out for a class level, it doesn't mean a creature with 2 HD, like a gnoll, has to.Your point? I (and my quote from the SRD, which is also present in the MM) specified that 1-HD humanoids followed this rule, not ones with more than 1. Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully before stating I am wrong. Also, i fail to see where that quote from the SRD says they have to exchange racial HD for class levels. They don't have to, the Humanoid type has a racial HD for a reason. You could opt for the HD instead of class levels to provide an example of an undeveloped or very primitive member of that race or species.The quote says they exchange it. Period. It does not say they "may" exchange it, or that they "can" exchange it. It says they exchange it. Yes, the Humanoid type has a racial Hit Dice for humanoids with more than one Hit Die. If you wanted to represent an undeveloped or very primitive member of that race or species, use warrior, it works well. Or commoner. Or barbarian. Depending on your flavor. The feral template is also good. This is how the RAW states things. Of course, in your game, feel free to do whatever suits you best. If you want to have Humanoids with one racial Hit Dice, go for it, I'm not going to break into your house with rules-lawyer ninjas and force you to play the game as written. I'm just giving you the guidelines as they are.
Angelflesh 03-24-07, 12:25 AM	Maybe you need to read my posts more, stated that i knew you wanted a 1-HD creature, and i admitted i couldn't provide one. Hell, you even quoted the section i said that in. This argument is moot anyways, i didn't tell the guy to add only HD. I simply said he could add racial HD instead if he didn't want to use class levels to raise the CR of his Catfolk. I never said you were flat out wrong when you told him he had to add class levels. All i said was you partly wrong and that he could ad racial HD. So, i don't know what you're beef is, maybe just to try and put me in place by nit-picking at what i said: "No no no no no, you can't add just 1 HD, it's against the rules!!!!111". Cut me a break buddy.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 12:29 AM	I don't think that catfolk (or other 1 HD humanoids) allow advancement by HD, however. Like the standard races, they advance by class only.
Narris 03-24-07, 12:37 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie look at the first part on the entry of pixies as characters "A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level." Also look under advancement entry
Angelflesh 03-24-07, 03:18 AM	I don't think that catfolk (or other 1 HD humanoids) allow advancement by HD, however. Like the standard races, they advance by class only. Of course it doesn't state they advance by HD, but you do have the option of doing so with the humanoid type and it's racial HD. Just like i can add class levels to various other creature that are usually supposed to advance by HD. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie look at the first part on the entry of pixies as characters "A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level." Also look under advancement entry Well gee, thanx for the update. I already stated that i agree with this. But if you want to advance the pixie or catfolk as a monster instead, you can just tack on more racial HD.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-24-07, 01:44 PM	But if you want to advance the pixie or catfolk as a monster instead, you can just tack on more racial HD. Cite one rule supporting that. You can't, because you can only advance creatures by racial hit dice if explicitly mentioned in the advancement section.
Angelflesh 03-24-07, 01:58 PM	Read the advancement entry in the beginning of the MM. I states that intelligent creature often advance by class level. The advancement entry in the stat block presents the most common form of advancement for that particular creature. Beholders are intelligent, but HD advancement is displayed. But wait a minute, they can also take class levels, i know this because beholder PrCs have been presented in WOTC books. You ask me to cite a rule supporting my claim. I ask you to present a rule stating it is breaking the rules to advance any creature by HD.
Arivia 03-24-07, 02:07 PM	So I was looking to make encounters with non classed catfolk but I am unable to find any mention of what their CR should be? How should I go about this? The Miniatures Handbook lists their CR as 1/2, which essentially means they must always have class levels. Your best option is to add the racial stats from whichever source you have to a first-level commoner.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-24-07, 03:32 PM	Read the advancement entry in the beginning of the MM. I states that intelligent creature often advance by class level. The advancement entry in the stat block presents the most common form of advancement for that particular creature. Beholders are intelligent, but HD advancement is displayed. But wait a minute, they can also take class levels, i know this because beholder PrCs have been presented in WOTC books. You ask me to cite a rule supporting my claim. I ask you to present a rule stating it is breaking the rules to advance any creature by HD. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or more can take class levels. That's in the rules. The one making the positive claim must provide evidence. You are the one making the positive claim.
mythSSK 03-24-07, 06:56 PM	Not going to get back into this, as I think Angelflesh is just arguing for the sake of arguing and won't change his mind regardless of how often he is shown to be incorrect, but I will just point out that the quote from the MM he cites (the only thing has has bothered citing to back up his position) says: "Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die." From what I can see, this is quite obviously referencing the "any creature with Intelligence 3 or higher can gain class levels" rule that Throatwobbler Mangrove pointed out.
Angelflesh 03-24-07, 06:59 PM	I'm not arguing just for the sake of it. The fact of the matter is, not a single one of you and cite where it says it's against the rules to add racial HD to humanoids with 1-HD instead of adding class levels. Sure, the rules say when a 1-HD creature takes on class levels they exchange their 1 racial HD for the HD from their first class level. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. See, you provide the evidence for me.
mythSSK 03-24-07, 07:12 PM	But there is evidence. You're just ignoring it. We've cited several passages/examples that imply that 1-HD Humanoids can not, by the rules, gain racial Hit Dice. So your absence of evidence argument really doesn't hold any water. From what I can see, your position is that because it doesn't specifically come right out and say you can't, you must be able to - regardless of any relevant rules that imply the opposite? That's... really faulty logic.