Catoblepas...NON deathray? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Catoblepas...NON deathray? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Uratoh
07-29-06, 02:28 AM The Catoblepas is neat and etc...but its DEATH RAY seems a bit excessive for a CR 6 monster...what would changing the fort save vs death to a fort save vs stun (how many rounds?), and removing the duration (or not?) affect its CR?
pita
07-29-06, 04:55 AM A Basilisk's gaze is just as strong, doesn't need to successfully hit, is permanent, and the spell to cancel it, while lower level, means i need my PHB to find another advantage the basilisk has, and he's one CR lower.
cwslyclgh
07-29-06, 05:27 AM Ha, you think the catoblepus is unbalanced now... in 1st and 2nd edition there was no save vs. the death ray...

personaly I do not think that the death ray is too powerful for the CR listed... it is no more powerful then a basilisks and theyhave a CR lower then the Catoblepus (infact gaze attacks like the basilisks are more effective then the deathray, in that everybody with in range has to save each round or turn to stone, where as the catablepus has to target a specific creature and make a ranged touch attack with a pathetic +3 attack bonus, before the save is even called for... not mention the gaze attacks are passive [although they can be used activly to make one creature with in range save twice in that round] while the catoblepus' death ray takes a standard action to use).
pita
07-29-06, 01:45 PM Actually, in 1st and 2nd edition there was a universal save for everything. It was as easy to dodge a Pseudodragon's breath as it was Tiamat's breath.
So the DC was actually around the 13 area.
It wasn't a no save:You die.
It was a save vs death ray. The DC was written on your character page.
God praise those who know about 2nd edition.
cwslyclgh
07-29-06, 03:46 PM from the 1e Monster manual:

the gaze of the catoblepus is equal to a death ray.... Any creature that meets this gaze dies with out any chance to save its self.

from the 2e Monstrous Manual:

The gaze of the catoblepus eminates a deathray, with a 60 yeard range. Any creature that meets this gaze dies with out a saving throw.

God praise those who know about 2nd edition

what was that again?
Uratoh
07-29-06, 04:11 PM I just kinda think it's a bit mean to do utterly irreversable things to people at that level...I mean, a Catob is a fair challenge for a party of 4th level...where on earth are they sposed to get 5000 gold + casting fees when the thing lazers the party fighter and he rolls only average?
Thurbane
07-29-06, 06:44 PM ...could it be because it is based on a creature from real world mythology that, according to legends, does kill people with it's gaze? Just a thought...

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast2821.htm
Uratoh
07-29-06, 07:01 PM I think my main beef with it is its relatively low CR vs instant deathity...Even with permanant stoning you can just produce a stone salve if you think they really didnt deserve it, but death is trickier...and then theres the frellin' Bodaks...
The Vorpal Tribble
07-29-06, 07:40 PM Phantasmal killer can be taken by a wizard only on CR higher, and its a save or die. I honestly don't see the problem with a CR 6 creature who kills with its gaze attack, especially if it allows a save. Really, you could give an instant death to a CR 1 creature, give the DC of 10 or so, and it'd be just as balanced. The only thing is that the DC's go up to more challenge the players. Whats it matter what level you die? For your level all challenges are supposed to have an equal chance of killing you.
Return of the Flumph
07-29-06, 07:55 PM Only problem is that the lower level you are, the harder it is to afford raise dead spells.
Vaalingrade Ashland
07-29-06, 08:47 PM Phantasmal killer can be taken by a wizard only on CR higher, and its a save or die. I honestly don't see the problem with a CR 6 creature who kills with its gaze attack, especially if it allows a save. Really, you could give an instant death to a CR 1 creature, give the DC of 10 or so, and it'd be just as balanced. The only thing is that the DC's go up to more challenge the players. Whats it matter what level you die? For your level all challenges are supposed to have an equal chance of killing you.
The problem is that meeting the gaze of a long necked swamp pig is a cheap and inexplicable death.

Of course, the game is rife with cheap and inexplicable deaths, but at level 6, there's no way to reverse it.
Thurbane
07-29-06, 09:48 PM And maybe the gaze of a Basilisk should cause Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead of turning you to stone. Did I mention that the Catoblepas is based on a creature from real world mythology?

I'm not sure how a death gaze from a Catoblepas is any more "cheap and inexplicable" than dying from an Ogre Mage's cone of cold, being pecked by a Cockatrice or being energy drained to death by a Wraith...

Just because the monster exists doesn't mean that every DM out there is going to have one lurking, ready for the first time your party sets foot in a swamp.

Is it's CR too low? Maybe. But the creature shouldn't have it's ability nerfed to fit it's CR, if anything, it should be vice versa, with it's CR bumped up...
cwslyclgh
07-31-06, 01:31 PM The problem is that meeting the gaze of a long necked swamp pig is a cheap and inexplicable death.if it was a gaze attack, I might actually agree that it would be over powered for a CR 6 creature... but in this case the catablepus doesn't have a gaze attack.... it is a ray attack, that has a very low ranged touch attack bonus, and allows a save to aviod the effects.
savant_warlord13
07-31-06, 04:00 PM It is my learned opinion that the basilisk's gaze is actually less powerful than the catoblepas's death ray. There are many countermeasures against gaze attacks. You can avert your gaze for only a 50% chance of having to even making a saving throw, and you can just close your eyes, turn your back or wear a blindfold.

A blindfolded man sprinting through a forest need not fear a basilisk, but the catoblepas is unaffected by the blindfold.
cwslyclgh
07-31-06, 05:00 PM It is my learned opinion that the basilisk's gaze is actually less powerful than the catoblepas's death ray.the only way I can see this argument having any merit is in one on one encounters, if the monsters is facing a group of adventurers the basilisks gaze is obviously more powerful as it is passive and will potentialy effect all of the opponents each round in addition to the basilisks other actions while the catoblepus' death ray is active, takes the creatures action and is targeted at a single character.

You can avert your gaze for only a 50% chance of having to even making a saving throw and suffer a 20% miss chance to all your attacks against the creature... (note that because of the catoblepus +3 ranged touch attack modifier... this option is not a whole lot better in comparison unless the character in question has a negative dexterity modifier. Assuming that the character has a dex of 10 and no deflection bonuses, the character using this option has a 50% chance of having to make a saving throw each round against the basilisk, while against the catoblepus he has a 70% chance of having to make a save, but only on a round when the catoblepus targets him).

and you can just close your eyes, or wear a blindfold and suffer a 50% miss chance against the creature, and suffer all the other effects of being blind.

A blindfolded man sprinting through a forest need not fear a basilisk, but the catoblepas is unaffected by the blindfold. :mymy: if a blindfolded man is trying to sprint through a forest the basilisk and catoblepus near by are the least of his worries.
savant_warlord13
07-31-06, 05:03 PM :mymy: if a blindfolded man is trying to sprint through a forest the basilisk and catoblepus near by are the least of his worries.
That part was a joke

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 07-29-06, 02:28 AM	The Catoblepas is neat and etc...but its DEATH RAY seems a bit excessive for a CR 6 monster...what would changing the fort save vs death to a fort save vs stun (how many rounds?), and removing the duration (or not?) affect its CR?
pita 07-29-06, 04:55 AM	A Basilisk's gaze is just as strong, doesn't need to successfully hit, is permanent, and the spell to cancel it, while lower level, means i need my PHB to find another advantage the basilisk has, and he's one CR lower.
cwslyclgh 07-29-06, 05:27 AM	Ha, you think the catoblepus is unbalanced now... in 1st and 2nd edition there was no save vs. the death ray... personaly I do not think that the death ray is too powerful for the CR listed... it is no more powerful then a basilisks and theyhave a CR lower then the Catoblepus (infact gaze attacks like the basilisks are more effective then the deathray, in that everybody with in range has to save each round or turn to stone, where as the catablepus has to target a specific creature and make a ranged touch attack with a pathetic +3 attack bonus, before the save is even called for... not mention the gaze attacks are passive [although they can be used activly to make one creature with in range save twice in that round] while the catoblepus' death ray takes a standard action to use).
pita 07-29-06, 01:45 PM	Actually, in 1st and 2nd edition there was a universal save for everything. It was as easy to dodge a Pseudodragon's breath as it was Tiamat's breath. So the DC was actually around the 13 area. It wasn't a no save:You die. It was a save vs death ray. The DC was written on your character page. God praise those who know about 2nd edition.
cwslyclgh 07-29-06, 03:46 PM	from the 1e Monster manual: the gaze of the catoblepus is equal to a death ray.... Any creature that meets this gaze dies with out any chance to save its self. from the 2e Monstrous Manual: The gaze of the catoblepus eminates a deathray, with a 60 yeard range. Any creature that meets this gaze dies with out a saving throw. God praise those who know about 2nd edition what was that again?
Uratoh 07-29-06, 04:11 PM	I just kinda think it's a bit mean to do utterly irreversable things to people at that level...I mean, a Catob is a fair challenge for a party of 4th level...where on earth are they sposed to get 5000 gold + casting fees when the thing lazers the party fighter and he rolls only average?
Thurbane 07-29-06, 06:44 PM	...could it be because it is based on a creature from real world mythology that, according to legends, does kill people with it's gaze? Just a thought... http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast2821.htm
Uratoh 07-29-06, 07:01 PM	I think my main beef with it is its relatively low CR vs instant deathity...Even with permanant stoning you can just produce a stone salve if you think they really didnt deserve it, but death is trickier...and then theres the frellin' Bodaks...
The Vorpal Tribble 07-29-06, 07:40 PM	Phantasmal killer can be taken by a wizard only on CR higher, and its a save or die. I honestly don't see the problem with a CR 6 creature who kills with its gaze attack, especially if it allows a save. Really, you could give an instant death to a CR 1 creature, give the DC of 10 or so, and it'd be just as balanced. The only thing is that the DC's go up to more challenge the players. Whats it matter what level you die? For your level all challenges are supposed to have an equal chance of killing you.
Return of the Flumph 07-29-06, 07:55 PM	Only problem is that the lower level you are, the harder it is to afford raise dead spells.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-29-06, 08:47 PM	Phantasmal killer can be taken by a wizard only on CR higher, and its a save or die. I honestly don't see the problem with a CR 6 creature who kills with its gaze attack, especially if it allows a save. Really, you could give an instant death to a CR 1 creature, give the DC of 10 or so, and it'd be just as balanced. The only thing is that the DC's go up to more challenge the players. Whats it matter what level you die? For your level all challenges are supposed to have an equal chance of killing you. The problem is that meeting the gaze of a long necked swamp pig is a cheap and inexplicable death. Of course, the game is rife with cheap and inexplicable deaths, but at level 6, there's no way to reverse it.
Thurbane 07-29-06, 09:48 PM	And maybe the gaze of a Basilisk should cause Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead of turning you to stone. Did I mention that the Catoblepas is based on a creature from real world mythology? I'm not sure how a death gaze from a Catoblepas is any more "cheap and inexplicable" than dying from an Ogre Mage's cone of cold, being pecked by a Cockatrice or being energy drained to death by a Wraith... Just because the monster exists doesn't mean that every DM out there is going to have one lurking, ready for the first time your party sets foot in a swamp. Is it's CR too low? Maybe. But the creature shouldn't have it's ability nerfed to fit it's CR, if anything, it should be vice versa, with it's CR bumped up...
cwslyclgh 07-31-06, 01:31 PM	The problem is that meeting the gaze of a long necked swamp pig is a cheap and inexplicable death.if it was a gaze attack, I might actually agree that it would be over powered for a CR 6 creature... but in this case the catablepus doesn't have a gaze attack.... it is a ray attack, that has a very low ranged touch attack bonus, and allows a save to aviod the effects.
savant_warlord13 07-31-06, 04:00 PM	It is my learned opinion that the basilisk's gaze is actually less powerful than the catoblepas's death ray. There are many countermeasures against gaze attacks. You can avert your gaze for only a 50% chance of having to even making a saving throw, and you can just close your eyes, turn your back or wear a blindfold. A blindfolded man sprinting through a forest need not fear a basilisk, but the catoblepas is unaffected by the blindfold.
cwslyclgh 07-31-06, 05:00 PM	It is my learned opinion that the basilisk's gaze is actually less powerful than the catoblepas's death ray.the only way I can see this argument having any merit is in one on one encounters, if the monsters is facing a group of adventurers the basilisks gaze is obviously more powerful as it is passive and will potentialy effect all of the opponents each round in addition to the basilisks other actions while the catoblepus' death ray is active, takes the creatures action and is targeted at a single character. You can avert your gaze for only a 50% chance of having to even making a saving throw and suffer a 20% miss chance to all your attacks against the creature... (note that because of the catoblepus +3 ranged touch attack modifier... this option is not a whole lot better in comparison unless the character in question has a negative dexterity modifier. Assuming that the character has a dex of 10 and no deflection bonuses, the character using this option has a 50% chance of having to make a saving throw each round against the basilisk, while against the catoblepus he has a 70% chance of having to make a save, but only on a round when the catoblepus targets him). and you can just close your eyes, or wear a blindfold and suffer a 50% miss chance against the creature, and suffer all the other effects of being blind. A blindfolded man sprinting through a forest need not fear a basilisk, but the catoblepas is unaffected by the blindfold. :mymy: if a blindfolded man is trying to sprint through a forest the basilisk and catoblepus near by are the least of his worries.
savant_warlord13 07-31-06, 05:03 PM	:mymy: if a blindfolded man is trying to sprint through a forest the basilisk and catoblepus near by are the least of his worries. That part was a joke